Cleveland AM Radio

[vjm]

I would like some feedback for this.

I believe Cleveland has got to be the worst market for AM radio in a big/semi-big city.

We have:

WTAM--no problem here actually, it is everything a 50,000 watt gorilla should be, though swapping Beck for Springer will bite them in the end.

WKNR--has Jim Rome and OSU football, which makes it a player, but
Mike and Mike/Brinda/Roda/Karlovec are decent at best with nothing else of note to be proud of.

WHK--a Salem conservatalk station with Ingahram and Savage to give it some spice, but still vanilla and a clone of other such stations around the country.

WWMK--Radio Disney might give the teeny boppers their Hillary Duff and Lindsay Lohan fix, but again nothing to write home to mom about.

WERE--soon to be urban talk, but the brokered format just sucks big time.

WHKW--preach and teach, very niche audience

WJMO--gospel with a so-so signal

WABQ--gospel with a weak signal

WCCD--ditto

Most markets have at least 2 to 4 other stations with strong talk formats (either news or sports).

Here we have 1 big kahuna, 1 decent but not great sports station, 1 cookie cutter conservatalk station, a teeny bopper station, an infomercial station, a Christian station, and 3 gospel stations.

We can do better.
<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by vjm on 12/08/05 10:44 PM.</FONT></P>

 

[trefdawg]

> I would like some feedback for this.
>

>
> WWMK--Radio Disney might give the teeny boppers their
> Hillary Duff and Lindsay Lohan fix, but again nothing to
> write home to mom about.

Kill the rat! How 'bout Real Oldies 1260 WIXY! Get the former WELW Staff,Ted Alexander,Ravena, Scott and heck you could probably get Jack Armstrong to voice track nights! Play a broad variety of gold bring back the old jingles, WIXY Triple Play and don't forget the reverb! Hey it's Christmas time...Hey Santa could you put this under the Cleveland radio Christmas tree? Trumps on...gotta go!

 

[HHH]

> I would like some feedback for this.
>
> I believe Cleveland has got to be the worst market for AM
> radio in a big/semi-big city.
>
> We have:
>
> WTAM--no problem here actually, it is everything a 50,000
> watt gorilla should be.


Are you kidding? A weak morning show, a lackluster news department, an afternoon guy whose whole act is being clueless about even the most simple elements of world affairs (We are supposed to find it amusing. Sort of like
The Beverly Hillbilies). Try WJR 760 if you want to hear what a REAL 50K full service should sound like.


though swapping Beck for Springer
> will bite them in the end.
>
> WKNR--has Jim Rome and OSU football, which makes it a
> player, but
> Mike and Mike/Brinda/Roda/Karlovec are decent at best with
> nothing else of note to be proud of.

Second-rate mostly.

>
> WHK--a Salem conservatalk station with Ingahram and Savage
> to give it some spice, but still vanilla and a clone of
> other such stations around the country.

That's because Salem owns many stations like this and programs them all the same. The mix of right-wing politics with a dash of fundementalist religious shading gives me the creeps.


>
> WWMK--Radio Disney might give the teeny boppers their
> Hillary Duff and Lindsay Lohan fix, but again nothing to
> write home to mom about.

Actually, a pretty well-done service.


>
> WERE--soon to be urban talk, but the brokered format just
> sucks big time.

What? You don't like people who buy themselves onto the radio just to hear themselves talk?


>
> WHKW--preach and teach, very niche audience

Sounds like it is from the 19th century.

>
> WJMO--gospel with a so-so signal
>
> WABQ--gospel with a weak signal
>
> WCCD--ditto
>
> Most markets have at least 2 to 4 other stations with strong
> talk formats (either news or sports).
>
> Here we have 1 big kahuna, 1 decent but not great sports
> station, 1 cookie cutter conservatalk station, a teeny
> bopper station, an infomercial station, a Christian station,
> and 3 gospel stations.
>
> We can do better.

Cleveland has always been an underserved market when it comes to AM radio, with less AM licenses than most cities this size. Don't know why, maybe so close to Toledo, Detroit, Akron, Canton, Columbus, Youngstown so there is not enough space on the dial. This is part of the reason why FM took off so early in Cleveland.
>

 

[tpt]

You have to pardon Trefdawg.

Us old Clevelanders get sentimental around Christmas time.....maybe Big Wilson will come down the chimney??

BTW/ Ted Alexander Jr. worked down in Athens for a while running oldies. Not bad show. Don't know where he is now.

 

[vjm]

> Cleveland has always been an underserved market when it
> comes to AM radio, with less AM licenses than most cities
> this size. Don't know why, maybe so close to Toledo,
> Detroit, Akron, Canton, Columbus, Youngstown so there is not
> enough space on the dial. This is part of the reason why FM
> took off so early in Cleveland.
> >
>


I don't think the problem is the number of stations so much is how the stations are being used.

For example:

There are 2 "preach and teach" stations in town--WHKW and WCRF-FM.

If Salem wanted to, they could probably buy WCRF for a song, and move their WHKW format there, while at the same time making 1220 AM a local talk station to compliment the national shows on WHK and the sports talk on WKNR.

Example 2:

WERE would be a nice home for Air America Radio.

It would be something different. (and would let WTAM bring back Glenn Beck since Springer is a staple of AAR)

Now you would have something for everybody:

All-around news/talk/sports--WTAM
Sports --WKNR
Local talk --WHKW
Conservative talk --WHK
Liberal talk --WERE
Christian talk --WCRF-FM

Also, one of the 3 gospel stations could switch to the old WRMR format and bring something else to the table.<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by vjm on 12/09/05 10:10 PM.</FONT></P>

 

[collegeDJ86]

> I don't think the problem is the number of stations so much
> is how the stations are being used.
>
> For example:
>
> There are 2 "preach and teach" stations in town--WHKW and
> WCRF-FM.
>
> If Salem wanted to, they could probably buy WCRF for a song,
> and move their WHKW format there, while at the same time
> making 1220 AM a local talk station to compliment the
> national shows on WHK and the sports talk on WKNR.
>

Do you really think Moody would be willing to sell WCRF? I think that is one of their biggest stations, other than their home base WMBI 90.1 Chicago. Moody uses WCRF as a kind of base station to operate other signals in the area (see 90.5 FM New Philadelphia, 90.1 FM New Castle PA, 91.9 FM Meadville PA, and many more I'm sure). Besides, WCRF isn't purely religious talk. They run some inspirational/soft CCM music in the afternoon drive slot I believe.

Besides, if Salem did buy WCRF somehow, I don't think WHKW would move. I think the big move they'd make would be to move the Fish over to 103.3 since it has a stronger, more centrally located signal (maybe not stronger in technical terms, but I think from practical experience 103.3 has a bigger reach).

Does Salem do local talk anywhere?<P ID="edit"><FONT class="small">Edited by collegeDJ86 on 12/09/05 11:33 PM.</FONT></P>

 

[ajhenderson]

The Salem cluster is a waste. Of course they don't do local talk. In my dream world:

-WKNR becomes WTAM's competitor, with local morning talk, Glenn Beck poached off WEOL, local talk against Rush, hotter more entertaining talk sans sports in PMD, Savage 7-10 (positioner: "News on the hour, on the half, and when it breaks, even during a ballgame!"), Hannity 10-1 (positioner: "Because there's more to life than sports") and wild local talk, or John and Jeff if you're on the cheap and don't mind losing BOH news from 1-5, overnights (it's my theory that if CC bought 850 and did talk there, C2C would move to the lesser 4.7kW signal and local talk would be on 1100's stronger stick... no need to cover Columbus, Detroit, Toledo, Cinci, Youngstown, etc. with ANOTHER Coast affil). More stimulating weekend talk.

-WHK flips libtalk. Steph Miller, Franken, Schultz, Rhodes at night, Lionel. Move whatever 1220 is running at night over to overnights to make some money. Bring Roex over from 5-6am to fill the hour before Bill Press starts. Broker the weekend along with an occasional Thom Hartmann best of. You could probably nab some of the displaced talk shows from WERE that focused on liberal issues and make a buck without fulling driving away audience.

-WHKW flips Radio for Guys. Get a LOCAL guy to talk sports AND MORE. WTAM's 20/20 updates satisfy many-a-fans, so they've got an advantage. Have a guy who talks about guy topics as well, water cooler talk, etc. Tony Bruno 9-noon and Rome stays noon-3. WTAM is a sports station after 3 anyway, so don't compete... Don and Mike afternoons, Tom Leykis 6-10 to catch the late PMD fringe and build audience in the evening. Phil Hendrie nights, John and Jeff overnights.

Being a talk radio nut and not so much a fan or expert on the other formats like gospel, this is bit skewed. But three talk stations and one sports station isn't a lot for a market of this size. Cincinnati until recently had WLW (akin to WTAM), WKRC (akin to my new Newstalk 850), WCKY (akin to my new Progressive Talk 1420), WBOB (akin to the ratings failure WHK presently is), and WSAI and WMOH on sports.

 

[ajhenderson]

> You have to pardon Trefdawg.
>
> Us old Clevelanders get sentimental around Christmas
> time.....maybe Big Wilson will come down the chimney??
>
> BTW/ Ted Alexander Jr. worked down in Athens for a while
> running oldies. Not bad show. Don't know where he is now.

Wasn't he on WATH 970 until recently?

 

[vjm]

> The Salem cluster is a waste. Of course they don't do local
> talk. In my dream world:
>
> -WKNR becomes WTAM's competitor, with local morning talk,
> Glenn Beck poached off WEOL, local talk against Rush, hotter
> more entertaining talk sans sports in PMD, Savage 7-10
> (positioner: "News on the hour, on the half, and when it
> breaks, even during a ballgame!"), Hannity 10-1 (positioner:
> "Because there's more to life than sports") and wild local
> talk, or John and Jeff if you're on the cheap and don't mind
> losing BOH news from 1-5, overnights (it's my theory that if
> CC bought 850 and did talk there, C2C would move to the
> lesser 4.7kW signal and local talk would be on 1100's
> stronger stick... no need to cover Columbus, Detroit,
> Toledo, Cinci, Youngstown, etc. with ANOTHER Coast affil).
> More stimulating weekend talk.
>
> -WHK flips libtalk. Steph Miller, Franken, Schultz, Rhodes
> at night, Lionel. Move whatever 1220 is running at night
> over to overnights to make some money. Bring Roex over from
> 5-6am to fill the hour before Bill Press starts. Broker the
> weekend along with an occasional Thom Hartmann best of. You
> could probably nab some of the displaced talk shows from
> WERE that focused on liberal issues and make a buck without
> fulling driving away audience.
>
> -WHKW flips Radio for Guys. Get a LOCAL guy to talk sports
> AND MORE. WTAM's 20/20 updates satisfy many-a-fans, so
> they've got an advantage. Have a guy who talks about guy
> topics as well, water cooler talk, etc. Tony Bruno 9-noon
> and Rome stays noon-3. WTAM is a sports station after 3
> anyway, so don't compete... Don and Mike afternoons, Tom
> Leykis 6-10 to catch the late PMD fringe and build audience
> in the evening. Phil Hendrie nights, John and Jeff
> overnights.
>
> Being a talk radio nut and not so much a fan or expert on
> the other formats like gospel, this is bit skewed. But three
> talk stations and one sports station isn't a lot for a
> market of this size. Cincinnati until recently had WLW (akin
> to WTAM), WKRC (akin to my new Newstalk 850), WCKY (akin to
> my new Progressive Talk 1420), WBOB (akin to the ratings
> failure WHK presently is), and WSAI and WMOH on sports.
>

Salem is never ever, ever, ever, ever going to do liberal talk.

The only way liberal talk comes to Cleveland is if WERE mixes it in with the new urban format.

My whole point is that out of 9 Cleveland AM stations (not counting Lorain or Akron) 4 are religious/gospel and 1 is KISS FM lite (Disney 1260).

Disney isn't going anywhere, but we don't need 3 gospel staions.
(not disrespecting gospel, but 3 is a bit much.)

 

[tpt]

> > You have to pardon Trefdawg.
> >
> > Us old Clevelanders get sentimental around Christmas
> > time.....maybe Big Wilson will come down the chimney??
> >
> > BTW/ Ted Alexander Jr. worked down in Athens for a while
> > running oldies. Not bad show. Don't know where he is now.
>
>
> Wasn't he on WATH 970 until recently?
>
Yep. Left about a year ago. Presumably for greener pastures.

 

[ajhenderson]

> > The Salem cluster is a waste. Of course they don't do
> local
> > talk.

> Salem is never ever, ever, ever, ever going to do liberal
> talk.

You're right; my comments were speaking of the stations in and of themselves, as if I owned them, not what Salem should do. I've given up pretending what Salem should do. They continue to be the radio equivalent of Extreme Home Makeover for many of us in the business.

> The only way liberal talk comes to Cleveland is if WERE
> mixes it in with the new urban format.

I've thought for a long time that WEOL should get Ed Schultz 3-5. The whole Clark Howard and Mitch Albom routine is about five years past its prime.

 

[grups]

> Cleveland has always been an underserved market when it
> comes to AM radio, with less AM licenses than most cities
> this size. Don't know why, maybe so close to Toledo,
> Detroit, Akron, Canton, Columbus, Youngstown so there is not
> enough space on the dial. This is part of the reason why FM
> took off so early in Cleveland.
> >
>
True with respect to number of stations, and probably true that one reason is the geographic crowding of so many markets. (Akron is even more under-radioed). But jeez, this rundown of what's on the AM dial underscores what's wrong with AM in general. Hardly any local programming, or mass-appeal programming (50 KW gorillas shouldn't be serving niche audiences, which is what right-wing talk shows do). Years ago, living in another market, I really envied Cleveland its great radio, which on AM included the likes of WGAR, WIXY, WWWE/WKYC/KYW, WHK (especially in its bizarre 1970s personality-country incarnation), WERE when it was doing "People Power" talk, WJW. What's wrong with Cleveland AM is the same thing that's wrong with AM everywhere else.

 

[nate81]

> > > The Salem cluster is a waste. Of course they don't do
> > local
> > > talk.
>
> > Salem is never ever, ever, ever, ever going to do liberal
> > talk.
>
> You're right; my comments were speaking of the stations in
> and of themselves, as if I owned them, not what Salem should
> do. I've given up pretending what Salem should do. They
> continue to be the radio equivalent of Extreme Home Makeover
> for many of us in the business.

The only Salem station worth caring about is WFHM The Fish. Aside from that, WHK, WHKW and WKNR could all fall silent at the same time, and (maybe not with WKNR) no one would immediently notice.

The best possible option to improve the Cleveland scene is for Salem to divest themselves of all their Cleveland AMs. And that ain't happening.

> > The only way liberal talk comes to Cleveland is if WERE
> > mixes it in with the new urban format.

How ironic is it that WERE will be having LOCAL programming (!) during MORNING DRIVE? There's a good possibility that Radio One *WANTS* WERE to succeed in this new (albiet a niche) format. Tell that to Luczak & Co., who will simply pluck off the disposed paytoilet shows off WERE and onto WHK and WKNR.

> I've thought for a long time that WEOL should get Ed Schultz
> 3-5. The whole Clark Howard and Mitch Albom routine is about
> five years past its prime.

You'd think there would be more shows available between Hannity, Ed and Michael Medved in afternoons, no? If only there was a Gary Burbank that could be plugged in that time - as far as I can tell, Mitch's show is the closest. And WJR comes in throughout much of Cleveland (not just Elyria) with little trouble.

They also should pick up Phil Hendrie live from 10pm-1am, and move Jim Bohannon to 1am-5am. His show would be a nifty fit. Heck, I have found myself DXing WGY-Albany nightly just to listen to Phil!

 

[inorm99]

There is nothing wrong in my opionion with the AM signals in Cleveland.
I remember my Hiram college days in the late 70's and early 80's listening to
WWWE( WTAM) and WGAR 1220 (for the newscasts, never the music)
The problem is Salem.
They take up valuable space on a big signal 1220 and the former WCLV.
They should put their Boring, Dog formats on the Dog signals where it belongs.
Cleveland deserves better

The Salem cluster is a waste. Of course they don't do
> > > local
> > > > talk.
> >
> > > Salem is never ever, ever, ever, ever going to do
> liberal
> > > talk.
> >
> > You're right; my comments were speaking of the stations in
>
> > and of themselves, as if I owned them, not what Salem
> should
> > do. I've given up pretending what Salem should do. They
> > continue to be the radio equivalent of Extreme Home
> Makeover
> > for many of us in the business.
>
> The only Salem station worth caring about is WFHM The Fish.
> Aside from that, WHK, WHKW and WKNR could all fall silent at
> the same time, and (maybe not with WKNR) no one would
> immediently notice.
>
> The best possible option to improve the Cleveland scene is
> for Salem to divest themselves of all their Cleveland AMs.
> And that ain't happening.
>
> > > The only way liberal talk comes to Cleveland is if WERE
> > > mixes it in with the new urban format.
>
> How ironic is it that WERE will be having LOCAL programming
> (!) during MORNING DRIVE? There's a good possibility that
> Radio One *WANTS* WERE to succeed in this new (albiet a
> niche) format. Tell that to Luczak & Co., who will simply
> pluck off the disposed paytoilet shows off WERE and onto WHK
> and WKNR.
>
> > I've thought for a long time that WEOL should get Ed
> Schultz
> > 3-5. The whole Clark Howard and Mitch Albom routine is
> about
> > five years past its prime.
>
> You'd think there would be more shows available between
> Hannity, Ed and Michael Medved in afternoons, no? If only
> there was a Gary Burbank that could be plugged in that time
> - as far as I can tell, Mitch's show is the closest. And WJR
> comes in throughout much of Cleveland (not just Elyria) with
> little trouble.
>
> They also should pick up Phil Hendrie live from 10pm-1am,
> and move Jim Bohannon to 1am-5am. His show would be a nifty
> fit. Heck, I have found myself DXing WGY-Albany nightly just
> to listen to Phil!
> <P ID="signature">______________
Norm Rosen
</P>

 

[ajhenderson]

> There is nothing wrong in my opionion with the AM signals in
> Cleveland.
> I remember my Hiram college days in the late 70's and early
> 80's listening to
> WWWE( WTAM) and WGAR 1220 (for the newscasts, never the
> music)
> The problem is Salem.
> They take up valuable space on a big signal 1220 and the
> former WCLV.
> They should put their Boring, Dog formats on the Dog signals
> where it belongs.
> Cleveland deserves better

$10 million for a 5kW AM waaay up the dial between the Class Cs in market #25. That should tell you how ridiculous it is and how sparse the market is. In most markets, Salem can hide its broom-closet computer-operated AMs in between plenty of decent stations. But they don't divest very frequently, so unless someone is stupid enough to pay close to $50MM for the three AMs (!!!!), they're here to stay. Hey, they could put many a-worse formats on 850.

 

[JohnnyMorganWXJX]

> Hey, they could put many a-worse formats on 850.

Give it time.

 

[radioguy]

Maybe a swap?

Salem just swapped their two Cincinnati AMs with marginal signals for a flamethrower in Detroit. They wanted to do FM in Cincy, but there's a local Christian FM, plus K-Love, and Air-1 already in the market.

Rumor has it WTSJ will stay religious, but WBOB will drop the crappy Salem talk shows (Prager/Medved/Bennett) and go back to all sports under an LMA.

 

[toddohio]

Re: Maybe a swap?

>>They wanted to do FM in Cincy, but there's a local Christian FM, plus K-Love, and Air-1 already in the market.>>

Salem owned and then sold an FM in WYGY 96.5 a few years back.

 

[radioguy]

That's why they sold it

They couldn't do Religious FM, so they kept it country then sold it for about twice what they paid for it! They made about $20M on that deal!

 

[ajhenderson]

Re: Maybe a swap?

> Salem just swapped their two Cincinnati AMs with marginal
> signals for a flamethrower in Detroit. They wanted to do FM
> in Cincy, but there's a local Christian FM, plus K-Love, and
> Air-1 already in the market.
>
> Rumor has it WTSJ will stay religious, but WBOB will drop
> the crappy Salem talk shows (Prager/Medved/Bennett) and go
> back to all sports under an LMA.

Right, because the people they usually swap with are no one we would rather have programming stations either.