Cleveland Radio June 23 Ratings

[davideduardo]

"With consolidation taking place in the mid 90's, owners of clusters found they could make plenty of money without trying to have every station be #1. "

But you see, that's part of the problem. In the old days, when you had a dozen different owners and they could only own one AM and one FM in a market, they put effort into making these stations successful.

The problem was that half of all stations in the US were not profitable following the over-population of the FM band due to Docket 80-90. Stations could not take risks, so you ended up with 3 or 4 AC stations in every market because the format was easier to sell and generally not as expensive to run.

Owners who were not profitable had no money to try anything risky. A new format mean a year of minimal revenues, as well as start-up costs and the like. So small independent owners preferred, generally, proven and established formats and little innovation.

Now, when a handful of companies own most of the stations, they have a cluster strategy whereby they don't have to be aggressive and vibrant with any one station. They can piece together a bunch their stations to make a number and none have to be programmed to be outstanding.

Yet they are programmed to serve the greatest number of people possible withing their formats. The biggest issue is that the economy, the PPM and new media has caused radio to lose two-thirds of its revenue in the last 22 years.

The real issue, beyond revenue, is that new media is preferred by nearly everyone... and so radio listening, expressed as Persons Using Radio, in 2000 was between 18% and 21% 6 AM to Midnight in all rated markets. Today, in the PPM markets, it is around 6%. That is a loss of 2/3 or more of the former audience levels.

Most of those losses in revenue and audience hit in just a few year's of those total twenty-two years, starting around 2008. We had a perfect storm of the recession, the arrival of smartphones and the change to the PPM is the largest markets. Within just a couple of years, PUR (Now PUMM) was down to under 10, with radio losing roughly 50% of its listening due to a changing economy and new media.

 

[davideduardo]

I'd like to see where you get that. They have baseball and basketball, that play most games at night, which is typically radio's lowest rated daypart. I would bet Rover is one of the top morning shows in Cleveland. They wouldn't have signed him to a long term deal if he wasn't.

On average, in 25-54 WMMS is #1 in Mornings, #1 in middays and # 4 in afternoons. In evenings they average 3rd to 4th. But evenings, with a low level of persons using radio, has little influence over the total all day numbers.

Rover has had as high as over a 20 share in mornings recently.

 

[davideduardo]

The current WMMS ratings are about in the middle of the pack when taken outside of sports play by play broadcasts. And once again, the only personalities they have are talk show people, not music personalities.

Absolutely and totally wrong. They are #1 in mornings in their target demos, usually #1 in middays, in the top 3 to 5 in afternoons and around third of fourth in evenings. They are similarly rated in Akron and Canton. WMMS even gets around a 1.0 share in Youngstown, well outside their 60 dbu signal.... mostly from the morning show (but there, they get nearly no share at all at night when the sports runs).

.

 

[davideduardo]

But you see, that's part of the problem. In the old days, when you had a dozen different owners and they could only own one AM and one FM in a market, they put effort into making these stations successful. Now, when a handful of companies own most of the stations, they have a cluster strategy whereby they don't have to be aggressive and vibrant with any one station. They can piece together a bunch their stations to make a number and none have to be programmed to be outstanding.

You don't understand cluster strategy at all. The idea of a cluster is to have a group of stations that together serve most significant segments of the audience. They are sold in packages ranging from one to all the stations together, according to what an advertiser wants and has as a target.

I owned a 6 station cluster on 9 total full signals back in the late 60's. We did every station as well as the available revenue to it would support. We put the market's first two FMs on the air, and sustained them for a long period while they build audience. We even had an all-classical station!. They all made money, but at different levels because expenses were shared and allocated. Several of the formats could not have been profitable if run independently, but they were nice contributors to the revenue in a combo situation as they were required buys for many package deals with agencies.

So you see, a multi-station cluster keeps some of the marginal formats on the air as they are sold in package deals and get on the buys. When you package a 5 share station, a 4 share station and a 3 share and a 2 share one, you give agencies 14 shares... a big package. Alone, the 3 share and 2 share stations would never be bought on most agency buys.

In Cleveland around 1960 there were 8 viable stations, WJW, WKYC/KYW, WGAR, WDOK, WERE, WHK, WJMO and WABQ. 3 were Top 40, 3 were some kind of MOR and two were R&B. How's that for single owner variety?

 

[Rusty Muck]

I'd like to see where you get that. They have baseball and basketball, that play most games at night, which is typically radio's lowest rated daypart.

One note is that only WTAM carries all Guardians and Cavaliers day games while WMMS remains in-format with music and/or hot talk.

I would bet Rover is one of the top morning shows in Cleveland. They wouldn't have signed him to a long term deal if he wasn't.

He's been at WMMS for over 15 years now and stabilized what had become an embarrassing revolving door in that time slot between 1994 and 2008.

 

[radiofollower]

I'd like to see where you get that. They have baseball and basketball, that play most games at night, which is typically radio's lowest rated daypart. I would bet Rover is one of the top morning shows in Cleveland. They wouldn't have signed him to a long term deal if he wasn't.

Yes, Rover's numbers are quite good in morning drive, but the overall ratings of WMMS are mid pack outside of (especially) baseball. Take a look:

February 2023:
#1) WMJI 11.1
#2) WZAK 8.4
#3) WNCX 7.2
#4) WHLK 7.0
#5) WDOK 6.1
#6) WMMS 5.9
#7) WKSU 5.5
#8) WGAR/WENZ (tie)
#9) WTAM 5.1
#10) WQAL 4.4

March 2023:
#1) WMJI 10.0
#2) WZAK 8.1
#3) WNCX 7.5
#4) WDOK 6.9
#5) WHLK 6.7
#6) WENZ 6.2
#7) WMMS 5.9
#8) WKSU 5.7
#9) WGAR 5.5
#10) WTAM 5.2

Now, watch what happens when baseball kicks in:

April 2023:
#1) WMJI 10.0
#2) WZAK 8.2
#3) WMMS 7.8
#4) WHLK 7.2
#5) WNCX 7.0
#6) WGAR/WTAM 6.6 (tie)
#7) WDOK 6.1
#8) WKSU 6.0
#9) WKRK 4.4
#10) WQAL 4.0

 

[TheBigA]

Yes, Rover's numbers are quite good in morning drive, but the overall ratings of WMMS are mid pack outside of (especially) baseball. Take a look:

Those look like 6+ numbers. My take on baseball play by play fans is they're mostly over 50, and that drags down their 25-54 numbers.

But baseball attracts advertisers who wouldn't normally advertise with iHeart, since Audacy owns the sports station.

 

[radiofollower]

"In Cleveland around 1960 there were 8 viable stations, WJW, WKYC/KYW, WGAR, WDOK, WERE, WHK, WJMO and WABQ. 3 were Top 40, 3 were some kind of MOR and two were R&B. How's that for single owner variety?"

I'm not talking about the pre-FM era. In the mid to late 70s and early 80s, you had operations like WMMS with a lineup of major, long running personalities; WDOK with Trapper Jack, WGCL with Danny Wright, WGAR with Jim Mantel, 106.5 had Tim Byrd and Lynn Toliver was on WZAK. All owned by different companies. All compelling personalities supported and promoted by the owners. All trying to be the best. I don't see that anymore. Yes, I can understand the business model of consolidation where one company buys up a bunch of stations in the same city and makes money out of piecing together a number, but -- honestly -- radio has lost something along the way.

 

[TheBigA]

Back to your earlier point about music personalities: I see a lot of local personalities at Cleveland music stations. WGAR could easily save money and run the syndicated Bobby Bones show in mornings, but they don't. Bobby is pushed to 7PM, when audiences are smaller. Same with the other music stations regardless of ownership. You may not like these personalities or the music they play, but they're live & local.

 

[Yabadabado1]

Yes, Rover's numbers are quite good in morning drive, but the overall ratings of WMMS are mid pack outside of (especially) baseball. Take a look:

February 2023:
#1) WMJI 11.1
#2) WZAK 8.4
#3) WNCX 7.2
#4) WHLK 7.0
#5) WDOK 6.1
#6) WMMS 5.9
#7) WKSU 5.5
#8) WGAR/WENZ (tie)
#9) WTAM 5.1
#10) WQAL 4.4

March 2023:
#1) WMJI 10.0
#2) WZAK 8.1
#3) WNCX 7.5
#4) WDOK 6.9
#5) WHLK 6.7
#6) WENZ 6.2
#7) WMMS 5.9
#8) WKSU 5.7
#9) WGAR 5.5
#10) WTAM 5.2

Now, watch what happens when baseball kicks in:

April 2023:
#1) WMJI 10.0
#2) WZAK 8.2
#3) WMMS 7.8
#4) WHLK 7.2
#5) WNCX 7.0
#6) WGAR/WTAM 6.6 (tie)
#7) WDOK 6.1
#8) WKSU 6.0
#9) WKRK 4.4
#10) WQAL 4.0

Months of miserable, crappy weather people stay indoors and since they have many more options for entertainment [TV, reading, internet, baking, boinking, etc.] probably not listening to the radio that much. Then on the other hand, nice, sunny, summery day they're out motoring around, walking, riding a bike, etc. they're more likely to be listening to a radio or streaming stuff off their phone because you can't really watch TV, bake in a vehicle [unless you live in Arizona], etc. So probably a reason why some ratings go up and down during certain months for certain stations. I mean, at least in some states in the north it'd be that way. Live in San Diego where the weather's pretty much the same every day, maybe ratings stay steady across the months?

 

[davideduardo]

Yes, Rover's numbers are quite good in morning drive, but the overall ratings of WMMS are mid pack outside of (especially) baseball. Take a look:

February 2023:
#1) WMJI 11.1
#2) WZAK 8.4
#3) WNCX 7.2
#4) WHLK 7.0
#5) WDOK 6.1
#6) WMMS 5.9
#7) WKSU 5.5
#8) WGAR/WENZ (tie)
#9) WTAM 5.1
#10) WQAL 4.4

March 2023:
#1) WMJI 10.0
#2) WZAK 8.1
#3) WNCX 7.5
#4) WDOK 6.9
#5) WHLK 6.7
#6) WENZ 6.2
#7) WMMS 5.9
#8) WKSU 5.7
#9) WGAR 5.5
#10) WTAM 5.2

Now, watch what happens when baseball kicks in:

April 2023:
#1) WMJI 10.0
#2) WZAK 8.2
#3) WMMS 7.8
#4) WHLK 7.2
#5) WNCX 7.0
#6) WGAR/WTAM 6.6 (tie)
#7) WDOK 6.1
#8) WKSU 6.0
#9) WKRK 4.4
#10) WQAL 4.0

However, the ranker improves a lot when you limit it to 25-54.

 

[davideduardo]

Months of miserable, crappy weather people stay indoors and since they have many more options for entertainment [TV, reading, internet, baking, boinking, etc.] probably not listening to the radio that much.

Does not matter. What we call "ratings" are really "shares" as in "share of the people listening to radio". So there are always 100 shares, whether 100 or 100,000 people are, on average, listening.

Then on the other hand, nice, sunny, summery day they're out motoring around, walking, riding a bike, etc. they're more likely to be listening to a radio or streaming stuff off their phone because you can't really watch TV, bake in a vehicle [unless you live in Arizona], etc. So probably a reason why some ratings go up and down during certain months for certain stations. I mean, at least in some states in the north it'd be that way. Live in San Diego where the weather's pretty much the same every day, maybe ratings stay steady across the months?

Again, changes in listening levels don't affect share. They do affect ratings, which is what most agencies buy from (although many are moving to "persons" so they can compare with new media.)

 

[radiofollower]

Back to your earlier point about music personalities: I see a lot of local personalities at Cleveland music stations. WGAR could easily save money and run the syndicated Bobby Bones show in mornings, but they don't. Bobby is pushed to 7PM, when audiences are smaller. Same with the other music stations regardless of ownership. You may not like these personalities or the music they play, but they're live & local.

But no one is a "star". That's what's missing. Someone on local radio who everybody knows. Triv....love him or hate him.....was a star. I will hand it to Rover, he's a star. But these are talk guys. Where is the star music deejays? You know, the kind who do something besides read titles, repeat slogans, give celebrity news and plug contests? Every time I punch around in the car, the music announcers seem to be going through the motions. No one stands out to me. I will be curious if some folks would post the names of current, local radio music hosts who you think bring more to the table than just doing the basics.

 

[TheBigA]

But no one is a "star". That's what's missing. Someone on local radio who everybody knows.

It sounds like you're pining for the past. My grandpa did the same thing. Nothing is as good as it was.

The reason people needed DJs in the 70s and 80s was because the real stars were unreachable. Today people can follow their favorite artists & celebrities on social media and know everything about them, just like when the DJs told them. If you grew up today, you'd understand.

The star DJs are the ones who live in places other than Cleveland. Steve Harvey, Bobby Bones, Ricky Smiley, Ryan Seacrest are stars because they have real relationships with the bigger stars. None of this has anything to do with station ownership or consolidation. It has to do with the world we live in. It would have happened regardless.

 

[Rusty Muck]

It sounds like you're pining for the past. My grandpa did the same thing. Nothing is as good as it was.

The reason people needed DJs in the 70s and 80s was because the real stars were unreachable. Today people can follow their favorite artists & celebrities on social media and know everything about them, just like when the DJs told them. If you grew up today, you'd understand.

The star DJs are the ones who live in places other than Cleveland. Steve Harvey, Bobby Bones, Ricky Smiley, Ryan Seacrest are stars because they have real relationships with the bigger stars. None of this has anything to do with station ownership or consolidation. It has to do with the world we live in. It would have happened regardless.

When WNCX signed up to carry Stern's show from NYC in 1992, it was a hit right out of the gate and the first time a syndicated morning radio show hit #1 in the ratings (and resulted in a long, long fight with Lanigan at WMJI for that position, which Lanigan frequently won). Tom Joyner was equally a success after replacing WZAK's locally-based morning show. So this trend indeed had already been ongoing well before the consolidation largely took place.

 

[TheBigA]

So this trend indeed had already been ongoing well before the consolidation largely took place.

What it proved was you didn't have to own the station to get them to carry your show. That had been the thinking behind syndication since the network radio days. But the networks lost access to the daytime for the most part in the 1960s. That's why I said that even if consolidation had not happened, you would still have had more national syndication and more VT. There had been syndicated music formats on FM in the 60s and 70s via reel-to-reel tape. It went to satellite in the 80s. But digital VT was developed in 1994. Now a DJ could pre-record his night shift, insert it in the automation, and spend the night at home with his family. All this happened 30 years ago, before consolidation. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

The other thing that killed the local radio DJ was the rise of the wedding DJ. These guys existed for years, playing music at events instead of live bands. But the disco era started to turn these guys into stars. Then hip-hop combined DJs with performers. Now a DJ didn't need a radio station. He could draw an audience with his rap and some rhythm tracks. Then these guys became international stars. Ultimately, you had Deadmaus who could fill a concert hall as a DJ spinning records. These days, I go to concerts, and between the performers, a DJ is on the stage, spinning records, rapping with the crowd, and giving out t-shirts from an air gun. All that took any glamour out of being a local radio DJ.

 

[davideduardo]

But digital VT was developed in 1994. Now a DJ could pre-record his night shift, insert it in the automation, and spend the night at home with his family. All this happened 30 years ago, before consolidation. You can't put the toothpaste back in the tube.

Even more to support your point: by the mid to later 70's, stations could "voice track" in automation by simply having two carts cue each other. The intro on one, followed by the song it matched. Harris System 90 and, later, System 9000, could both do this. I had the #1 and #2 stations in Puerto Rico, now a top 20 market, fully automated except for live assist morning drive. Both were personality formats (Hot AC and All Salsa) so very foreground. We did song intros, call in contests, promo liners and everything the formats did before they went automated. The only slight change was the operator (FCC still required one of those back then) taped and edited contest winners and put them in a doughnut to wrap up every on-air contest.

Every thing was recorded daily, except weekends that were done two days ahead. Even vacations were recorded day by day per the clock and put on marked color coded carts.

 

[radiofollower]

It sounds like you're pining for the past. My grandpa did the same thing. Nothing is as good as it was.

No, I am not complaining about the music, how people dress, or stuff like that. That's grandpa stuff.

What I am missing is the local music personality who I used to love to listen to, who would introduce me to new music, interview rock stars when they came through Cleveland and talk about a local show that they saw the previous evening. The station did weekly, live "Coffee Break Concerts" and lots of live, concert broadcasts from local venues. There was a Cleveland connection to all of this music and culture. That's all gone. I am sure some would say that it is not necessary anymore because of social media, but it certainly robbed local radio of one of it's main distinctions. Now, when I hear music on local radio, it is just a bunch of songs with some announcer and sometimes not even that. Once again, when I listen to many stations in Europe, they still have music personalities. Not just the national services but the local stations as well. Radio X in London (totally local station) had their personality do an in-studio interview with Richard Ashcroft of The Verve recently and they talked about upsoming shows in London and what bands Richard saw the previous evening at a local club. WMMS used to do this all the time. It was exciting when a rock star would be interviewed on MMS live from their studios and there would be a group of people waiting for autographs in the lobby of The Statler, where their studios were. It was exciting. Radio was exciting and important. All gone now. As I said, music radio is now just a bunch of songs with some announcer.

 

[radiofollower]

We did song intros, call in contests, promo liners and everything the formats did before they went automated.

That's it? I think you just made my point. Music radio used to be more than just reading song titles, contests and station hype.

 

[TheBigA]

No, I am not complaining about the music, how people dress, or stuff like that. That's grandpa stuff. What I am missing is the local music personality who I used to love to listen to, who would introduce me to new music, interview rock stars when they came through Cleveland and talk about a local show that they saw the previous evening.

That kind of thing still happens, but not so much with rock stars because they don't do those kind of things anymore. Back in the day, record labels had promo people who set those things up, and made sure those artists visited the local radio stations. Then the record labels decided they didn't need to spend that kind of money on promo people. They'd just put the music on the internet, and let the fans find it on their own. What happened? The demise of physical product. People don't buy records anymore, so there's no point investing in getting people to buy records. So that killed the radio visits and interviews.

That kind of thing still happens in country music though. If you listen to WGAR, chances are that you'll hear lots of artist interviews, although artists don't have time to do them on show days. They usually do them on a day when they can pound out 20-30 radio stations in one day. You might also hear artist interviews on the syndicated shows, because that way an artist can reach more people doing one interview.

So a lot of what you're talking about reflects more of the changes in the music business than changes at radio. You talk about consolidation in radio, but at the same time, there was consolidation in the music business. There used to be lots of small record labels who invested in artists. Today there are three major worldwide labels, and they're trying to maximize artist time and availabilities. Too bad. They ruined the music business.