Cleveland Radio June 23 Ratings

[radiofollower]

When Rosko was at WNEW, they didn't have good ratings. After he quit, things got better.

Roscoe left WNEW-FM in 1970. No rock station on FM had ratings that early!

Tom Donohue died in 1975, and that's when they brought in consultants at KSAN.

Not right away. Donahue was GM of KSAN and when he died, the station retained the structure that Donahue put in place for several years with top flight ratings. Not sure when the consultants came in, but -- like at WMMS in the late 70s/early-mid 80s -- they didn't seem to have much impact on the music programming at these stations, which is the subject at hand.

Consultants never pick the music or tell stations what to play. But the labels work nationally, and so do consultants. That's where the strategy comes in. To have a local hit in Cleveland is OK, but the real money is when ALL of the stations are playing a song at the same time. That's the power of a hit song.

How do you think a song by a new artist becomes a hit? A breaker station takes a chance, makes some local noise, other stations see the action in the trades and jump on the artist. WMMS famously took a chance on Heart and Rush when they were unknowns on Canadian labels. The action in Cleveland was so strong, that they both got signed to American labels and other stations started playing them. Both acts became big. That's how it used to work and it was exciting.

 

[TheBigA]

How do you think a song by a new artist becomes a hit? A breaker station takes a chance, makes some local noise, other stations see the action in the trades and jump on the artist.

Springsteen made lots of local noise on the east coast. It didn't click until Born In The USA. He almost got dropped by Columbia.

 

[radiofollower]

Springsteen made lots of local noise on the east coast. It didn't click until Born In The USA. He almost got dropped by Columbia.

Springsteen was also big in Cleveland before "Born To Run". Kid Leo was a big supporter. This is part of the reason why Springsteen played the WMMS 10th Anniversary Show at The Agora in 1978, in return for their early support. By the way, Wessler Media put together a 6-part history of WMMS, which is excellent. If you are a radio fan, it is worth a listen: PROHFILES | WRATH OF THE BUZZARD — Wessler Media

 

[davideduardo]

"Unknown songs by unknown artists". Somebody had to play new artists for the first time, or else we would still be listening to Bill Haley and The Comets.

Big differences exist between those FM rock stations in the late 60's and early 70's that played as much as 100% non-hit, unfamiliar songs in an hour and the Superstars and clone stations that researched and played the hits. Those stations added a few new cuts a week, and promoted them with decent airplay so they'd become familiar.

"Rock Around the Clock" was a hit because a lot of stations played it. Remember, Top 40 was created about four years before that song showed up, so the format, based logically on just 40 songs, played hits. Haley's tune was a hit.

Stations like WMMS, WNEW-FM in New York, KSAN San Francisco in the 70s and early to mid-80s often broke "new and unknown acts" which were later picked up by the heavily consulted stations when the acts became successful. For example, MMS was very early on Patti Smith and helped make her a star to the point where limited, timid playlist M105 (who never got anywhere near MMS in the ratings) finally started to play her. Just one track, I might add. There are very few "breaker" stations around today, and that's one of the reasons that young people abandoned broadcast radio......the stations became obsessed with just playing the established acts and the whole enterprise got stale. Maybe not to 35+ or so who don't mind endless Eagles, Pink Floyd and Billy Joel, but unless you cultivate the lower demo, you will eventually be in big trouble.

Actually, for most of the last 50 years rock stations have always played an assortment of new songs every week. But when nearly none of those songs became hits, stations went more and more into library cuts. The reason is in the music being produced, not the stations. If no new songs get listener interest, stations won't play them.

WMMS may have been advised by Burkhart Abrams in 1978, but they evidently chose not to listen to them! Take a look at their playlist from 1978. Does that look like a Burkhart Abrams station music list? According to John Gorman's book, they entered into consultant deals to keep them away from competition and pretty much ignored them. So long as the consultants got paid, they didn't care.

There is a lot of hyperbole there. WMMS took the council of Lee Abrams, but adapted it to their established image. Note that that formula has not worked for decades and the station is mostly talk and sports.

Not surprising, as the regionalism evident in rock radio for many years has been pretty much wiped out by the desire to just concentrate on the big acts. If that's all the people know, that's all they will respond to,

It's all people indicate they want to hear. Lots of weaker songs don't pass in local music tests any more.

It depends on how the station laid out the music. Yes, there were some FM stations who let their jocks just run totally wild, but at the same time, there were stations like the aforementioned WMMS of the 70s and early-mid 80s, KSAN, WNEW-FM and a few others who knew how to break new music sprinkled among familiar material.

Actually, even the Superstars stations broke music. A few stations simply made a bigger deal out of it, and they tended to be in markets that had a huge rock core. On the other hand, look how the more "free form" rock station in LA died in the 80's, becoming the first Smooth Jazz station because the open format with lots of new songs was absolutely dead.

You must not live in Cleveland, where "Jack and Diane" is played endlessly on at least a half dozen stations.

Again, a market with a huge rock core.

 

[davideduardo]

How do you think a song by a new artist becomes a hit? A breaker station takes a chance, makes some local noise, other stations see the action in the trades and jump on the artist. WMMS famously took a chance on Heart and Rush when they were unknowns on Canadian labels. The action in Cleveland was so strong, that they both got signed to American labels and other stations started playing them. Both acts became big. That's how it used to work and it was exciting.

Those are wonderful examples of two specific artists.

Name 10 more. You can't.

In most cases, the better PDs or MDs all discovered the same cuts at the same time, and those "pioneering" adds were on multiple stations because by the early 70's labels had learned to work cuts, not albums.

 

[Rusty Muck]

Those are wonderful examples of two specific artists.

Name 10 more. You can't.

Add David Bowie, which the station championed in 1971 at the same time Denny Sanders arrived and well before rock radio embraced him. So that’s three. But yeah.

In most cases, the better PDs or MDs all discovered the same cuts at the same time, and those "pioneering" adds were on multiple stations because by the early 70's labels had learned to work cuts, not albums.

In his memoir, Gorman has given credit to WMMR’s Ed Sciaky as “Springsteen’s original champion” and “a source and friend”.

 

[davideduardo]

Add David Bowie, which the station championed in 1971 at the same time Denny Sanders arrived and well before rock radio embraced him. So that’s three. But yeah.

In his memoir, Gorman has given credit to WMMR’s Ed Sciaky as “Springsteen’s original champion” and “a source and friend”.

Just as Donna Halper discovered Rush for airplay in the US.

 

[radiofollower]

Those are wonderful examples of two specific artists.

Name 10 more. You can't.

That is a pretty arrogant thing to say. You could have said "now, name some more".

Don't forget David Bowie. Bowie himself credited WMMS with breaking him in the USA. WMMS was the first in the nation to play Suzi Quatro and The Sensational Alex Harvey Band. Both acts failed to catch nationally (small, insignificant labels didn't help) but both acts played to sell out crowds in Cleveland and sold records big time in this market. Suzi went to England where she became a superstar over there. Alex passed away, unfortunately. I also recall that WMMS broke The Tubes nationally. Very early on Tom Petty. Played reggae acts like Jimmy Cliff, Bob Marley and Toots and the Maytals long before most commercial stations played such music. The station brought the Jimmy Cliff film "The Harder They Come" to Cleveland around 1974 and sponsored the showing. Ian Hunter was huge in Cleveland due to WMMS and Ian wrote "Cleveland Rocks" (re-writing "England Rocks") in response to the support in Cleveland). Brian Adams' first big market was Cleveland, especially after he played a live WMMS "Coffee Break Concert" for the station. You seem to be trying to downplay the classic WMMS's accomplishments in terms of impact and breaking music. I have no idea why when the history of the station's impact on the are music scene is undeniable, and the ratings were of historic market highs (13 and 14 shares 12+, total domination 18-34 and 25-54, plus a high point cume of over 700,000 plus.

In most cases, the better PDs or MDs all discovered the same cuts at the same time, and those "pioneering" adds were on multiple stations

Well, yes. The "breaker stations" staffs often knew each other (birds of a feather) and shared tips with each other about new acts.

because by the early 70's labels had learned to work cuts, not albums.

Not exactly. There would be suggested "lead cuts" from an album by the record guys, but ultimately they wanted you to play the album and were not all that concered about which cuts you chose. These "lead cuts" were only suggestions to stations which were either too lazy to listen to the album or didn't have the resources to review all the material submitted. I know that the classic WMMS airstaff were music fans and used to personally advocate adds at weekly music meetings based on stuff that they heard at home from their weekly pile of albums (at MMS in those days, the record guy had to bring a dozen copies so that all the jocks got their own stuff to review).

 

[radiofollower]

"Rock Around the Clock" was a hit because a lot of stations played it. Remember, Top 40 was created about four years before that song showed up, so the format, based logically on just 40 songs, played hits. Haley's tune was a hit.

"Rock Around The Clock" (1954) was not initially popularized by top 40 radio. Top 40 radio did NOT exist "four years before that song showed up". That would be 1950, and I guarantee you that there was no top 40 radio in 1950. There was not even any real Top 40 radio in 1954 yet, although a few pioneers had stand alone shows on general stations (Freed, etc). "Rock Around The Clock" broke by being featured in the film "Blackboard Jungle" and was only later played on the radio.

 

[radiofollower]

There is a lot of hyperbole there. WMMS took the council of Lee Abrams, but adapted it to their established image. Note that that formula has not worked for decades and the station is mostly talk and sports.

There were consultant deals toward the end of the WMMS "classic era" (roughly 1974-1986) but as Gorman has said, it had nothing to do with the independent programming of WMMS. Mostlikley pull to get syndicated shows and promotional tie-ins. As far as "that formula has not worked for decades" you must remember that WMMS changed radically after Gorman, Sanders and Leo left, with the Malrite national program director swooping down on the station and cutting a lot of the new, breaking music even though the station was still top-rated. After that, the ratings collapsed. Go listen to episode 6 of the "Wrath Of The Buzzard" podcast where this is discussed in detail. PROHFILES | WRATH OF THE BUZZARD — Wessler Media

 

[thenetwork]

Believe what you want to believe, but corporations aren't "imposing tight playlists." If you go back to the 60s, you'll see much tighter playlists. They only played 20 songs over and over. And people loved it.

Sure, that was a thing on the Top 20 (40) stations in the day. But those 20, 30 or 40 songs that were played over and over were usually cycled-out of the playlist within 2-3 months. So every quarter, a station remained fresh as there was a whole new group of songs that were in tight rotation.

That still holds true on the stations that strive to play the latest and most popular songs.

But when you have stations that play songs from a certain era that are NOT current, new music, a tight, limited playlist that is played over and over for months and years, with no cycling in or out of songs to keep the station fresh is a real turn off. Even more so if said station relies on generic "card-readers" that don't personalize the show.

 

[TheBigA]

But when you have stations that play songs from a certain era that are NOT current, new music, a tight, limited playlist that is played over and over for months and years, with no cycling in or out of songs to keep the station fresh is a real turn off. Even more so if said station relies on generic "card-readers" that don't personalize the show.

Which station are you talking about. I have checked numerous classic hits stations owned by Audacy, Cumulus, and iHeart on Mediabase. All of them cycle a certain percentage of their songs every week. They also change the number of spins the songs receive every week. So a song that was in heavy one week is in light the next.

Assuming you're talking about WMJI. Over one-third of their songs were cycled out between last week and this week. David Bowie's Changes was one of them. Walk Like An Egyptian, True Colors, and Money For Nothing were all cycled out. The aforementioned Jack & Diane was increased in spins by one this week. It moved up from #24 to #5. The reverse was done with Twist & Shout. It's rare that a song stays at the same place for two weeks. More Than a Feeling is one such song. But it is also one of the highest testing songs in the format.

But keep in mind this is the #1 most-listened-to station in Cleveland. You say it's a 'turn off,' but that behavior isn't seen in the data. It may be a turn off to you, but not everyone else. My suggestion to people who need a large playlist is to stream KOAI in Phoenix.

 

[Rusty Muck]

I think we can ascertain that the four stations largely being cited for playing "Jack and Diane" are:

• WMJI (classic hits)
• WNCX (classic rock)
• The Lake (adult hits)
• WDOK (mainstream AC)

All four stations with quite different formats but have overlap (not exactly song-wise) in the 1980s (especially since WMJI shook off their emphasis on the 1960s-1970s, which probably lasted far, far longer than they should have). And because John Mellencamp is a featured artist in all four formats, his most popular song is going to be cycled in and out accordingly.

Sean Ross recently wrote about the NYC market having multiple FM stations focusing on the 1990s and the same principle applies, just without an overlapping song. Cleveland is naturally a more conservative, older radio market than NYC.

The ‘90s and New York Radio: It’s Just a Little Crushed

To be sure, iHeart’s WKTU and Audacy’s WCBS-FM and WNEW (New 102.7) are still three very different radio stations. Classic

radioinsight.com

 

[skiwest]

Can you guess where Jack & Diane ranks?

50 Worst Songs Of All Time

Hey... you're welcome.

vocal.media

 

[TheBigA]

And because John Mellencamp is a featured artist in all four formats, his most popular song is going to be cycled in and out accordingly.

What I've found is it depends where you live. The people in LA complain about hearing Hotel California too often. Of course, the song was written about a specific hotel in LA. So it's only natural that the classic hits station in LA would play it regularly. Certain songs test well, don't burn, and are core to the format.

Can you guess where Jack & Diane ranks?

That's his personal list. He didn't do a poll. He didn't ask radio listeners. It's just his opinion. He's welcome to his opinion. On the other hand, in scientific polls, the song tests well with classic hits radio listeners. That's why they play it. They don't play music for themselves. I'll add that a country artist took the riff and incorporated it into another song, and it went to #1, and it remains one of his most popular songs.

I Was Jack (You Were Diane) - Wikipedia

en.wikipedia.org

 

[radiofollower]

I think we can ascertain that the four stations largely being cited for playing "Jack and Diane" are:

• WMJI (classic hits)
• WNCX (classic rock)
• The Lake (adult hits)
• WDOK (mainstream AC)

All four stations with quite different formats but have overlap (not exactly song-wise) in the 1980s (especially since WMJI shook off their emphasis on the 1960s-1970s, which probably lasted far, far longer than they should have). And because John Mellencamp is a featured artist in all four formats, his most popular song is going to be cycled in and out accordingly.

Sean Ross recently wrote about the NYC market having multiple FM stations focusing on the 1990s and the same principle applies, just without an overlapping song. Cleveland is naturally a more conservative, older radio market than NYC.

The ‘90s and New York Radio: It’s Just a Little Crushed

To be sure, iHeart’s WKTU and Audacy’s WCBS-FM and WNEW (New 102.7) are still three very different radio stations. Classic

radioinsight.com

Don't forget WONE in Akron, who also plays the hell out of "Jack and Diane".

 

[skiwest]

That's his personal list. He didn't do a poll. He didn't ask radio listeners. It's just his opinion. He's welcome to his opinion. On the other hand, in scientific polls, the song tests well with classic hits radio listeners. That's why they play it. They don't play music for themselves.

Yes, I realize that. But it's nice to know I'm not the only one that hates that song.

 

[TheBigA]

Yes, I realize that. But it's nice to know I'm not the only one that hates that song.

Not everyone agrees. Here are a couple of other lists:

Top 10 John Mellencamp Songs

When it comes to R-O-C-K in the U.S.A., few do it better than John Mellencamp does, and because of that, we're counting down the Top 10 John Mellencamp Songs.

ultimateclassicrock.com

John Mellencamp Songs Ranked – Return of Rock

returnofrock.com

 

[MediaLover]

Don't forget the six or so stations all playing Bon Jovi from the Slippery When Wet era.

 

[Yabadabado1]

Here's what pisses me off: When did "classic rock" and "classic hits" [formerly known as "oldies"] become clones of each other? I would say that about 80% of what I hear on several differently formatted stations have the same playlist. There are songs I now hear on, lets say WNCX, are being played on WMJI. 'NCX is playing songs nowadays that would never would have been called "rock" when it first came out but nowadays is being called called "classic rock".