Cliff Winston & "That Other Board"

[mostb1]

Los Angeles/Re: Cliff Winston & "That Other Board"

(Continued from Previous Post)

The total annual cost for the California Department of Motor Vehicles (DMV) to provide language services is $2.2 million. (Source: U.S. Office of Management and Budget, Report to Congress: Assessment of the Total Benefits and Costs of Implementing Executive Order No. 13166: Improving Access to Services for Persons with Limited English Proficiency, March 14, 2002)


Of the 3,600 Chinese ballots prepared for the Sept. 2002 primary election in King County, Wash., only 24 (or 0.67 percent) were used. (Source: Warren Cornwall, Bilingual vote turnout low: Only 24 Chinese ballots returned in primary, Seattle Times, October 9, 2002)


The total cost of providing multilingual services for the Immigration and Naturalization Service would be between $114 million and $150 million annually. (Source: U.S. Office of Management and Budget, Report to Congress: Assessment of the Total Benefits and Costs on Implementing Executive Order No. 13166: Improving Access to Services for Person with Limited English Proficiency, March 14, 2002)


It costs $1.86 million annually to prepare written translations for food stamp recipients nationwide. The cost for oral translations skyrocket to $21 million nationally per year. (Source: U.S. Office of Management and Budget, Report to Congress: Assessment of the Total Benefits and Costs of Implementing Executive Order No. 13166: Improving Access to Services for Person with Limited English Proficiency, March 14, 2002)


79 percent of Americans, and 81 percent of first and second generation Americans favor making English the official language of the United States. Majority support for official English was recorded among every subgroup, including age, gender, race, and political affiliation. (Source: Zogby International, June 2005)


A 2001 Gallup poll found that 96 percent of Americans believe that it is essential/important that immigrants living in the United States learn to speak English. (Source: Gallup Poll, 2001)


85 percent of Americans believe it is very hard or somewhat hard for immigrants to get a good job or do well in this country without learning English. (Source: Gallup Poll, 2001)


Nearly two-in-three foreign born adults say that the United States should expect all immigrants to learn English. (Source: Public Agenda survey of 1,002 foreign born adults, 2002)


68 percent of Hispanics say that the goal of bilingual education programs should be to make sure that students learn English well. (Source: The Latino Coalition survey of 1,000 Hispanic adults, 2002)


Three-in-four foreign born adults believe that schools should teach English to immigrant students as quickly as possible, even if it means that they need to catch up in other subjects. (Source: The Latino Coalition survey of 1,000 Hispanic adults, 2002)


Nearly 90 percent of Latinos believe that adult Latino immigrants need to learn English in order to succeed in the United States. (Source: Pew Hispanic Center/Kaiser Family Foundation survey of 2,929 Hispanic adults, 2002)


86 percent of Americans call the ability to speak and understand English an absolutely essential or very important obligation for all Americans. (Source: National Opinion Research Center survey of 2,904 adults, 1999).

 

[mostb1]

You must be senile as I am referring to everything in this thread not a just a single post that you have written that I have exposed as a downright LIE. Geez...

Then you should learn to edit the cites in your posts, as you answered one about langauge acquisition.

The rest of the stuff you call lies consists of actual facts, the sources of which I have given you. A good example is your insistence that Univsion's radio division (which has consistently produced better margins than any other division) will be sold... when public statements to the contrary have been issued. Or saying that I am against the PPM when I have been on Arbitron committees to help develop it. Or your totally whacked population figures for US Hispanics when the true data is right on the U.S. Census website. Or claiming Clear Channel was not involved in deciding on the spin-offs from AMFM that would permit the merger to be approved. Or that Clear does not own the "Beat" service mark nationally.

It was quite easy to read what I was referring to. Maybe you've forgotten how to read the English language over at the illegal alien broadcasting company. I can arrange for you to get lessons for two weeks in Maricopa Country. I hope you don't mind wearing black and pink stripes to class.

The only CORRECT facts came from me, not you. I do not care about your luncheon where you were lied to about the future of Univision radio. When it's sold next year, you'll be the first to see a post from me. I think you need to re-read what I wrote about the PPM. Once again, your doing the David spin and it's getting dizzying. My population figures for Hispanics are 100% correct unlike yours and I've provided many more links than you have to prove everything that I have written. Please post where I said Clear Channel was not involved in deciding on the spin-offs from AMFM that would permit the merger to be approved. I WILL BE AWAITING MY EXACT QUOTE SAYING THAT TO BE RE-POSTED BY YOU. You are such a total fool.

As for "The Beat" service mark, once again the David spin is in full force. Read again as I constantly am referring to "The Beat" Los Angeles of which NO service mark agreement was signed for use of the term based on any supposed Clear Channel service mark. Over 6 1/2 years after the initial deal was singed and 80 posts later and you still don't get where you are wrong. Pathetic.

 

[mostb1]

PS: Why do so many threads end up becoming discussions of immigration?

... because people who do not like Hispanics or other immigrants play the immigration card to further an agenda of bigotry.

Why can't you just say it this way, David?:

because people who do not like Hispanics or other immigrants play the illegal immigration card to further an agenda of bigotry.
-------------------------------------------------------------------------------------

Yeh always the race card. Puhleese give that a rest, will you? I thought you said one time that politically you were to the right of Ghengis Khan? But your statements on this issue show that you're rubbing elbows with that closet conservative Antonio Villaraigosa IMO. :

And to answer BacknUSSR's question, these threads devolve into this issue because without a steady supply of illegal immigrants coming into California from south of the border who are of course Spanish-Dominant, the ratings for many Spanish-language stations would go south to an extent. How can anyone dispute that? All one has to do is compare population demographics of the LA market from 30 years ago vs today and then compare the number of Spanish-language radio stations 30 years ago in LA to the number existing today. Any intelligent person can draw the expected conclusion.

Why is this important to some of us? Putting aside all the security, social, and economic impacts this migration affects and just restricting it to radio, some of us are English-speaking only and our choices in over the air radio listening have dropped appreciably. Even NYC has fewer Spanish language radio stations %-wise than the LA market.

Love your post.

But illegal immgration is a huge factor in radio. There would be NO need for a spanish language radio station in Nebraska, rural Georgia or Idaho if it wasn't for one reason, illegal aliens being recruited to work jobs once held at higher wages by American citizens. And Los Angeles is not really much different.

The PCBS that David is involved in when upstaged by someone who knows the facts makes them automatically brand you a racist. I've been called it so many times, I'd proudly wear it just to irritate them and their small mindedness since they are the true racists.

Good to see that Mayor Reconquista has been totally upstaged by Admiral Brewer, the new Superintendent of schools. That guy is great - what a personality. There's already talk of him running against Mayor Photoraigosa in 2009. Glad to see the school board is suing for that illegal bill signed by Arnold that allows him control along with the school board.

 

[mostb1]

Yeh always the race card. Puhleese give that a rest, will you? I thought you said one time that politically you were to the right of Ghengis Khan? But your statements on this issue show that you're rubbing elbows with that closet conservative Antonio Villaraigosa IMO. :

Unfortunately, Glenn is trying to introduce the immigration reform issue into the discussion of LA radio. Much of his posting in the last few days has a vitriolic flavor that really has nothing remotely related to radio, such as the discussion of who can open bank accounts.

And to answer BacknUSSR's question, these threads devolve into this issue because without a steady supply of illegal immigrants coming into California from south of the border who are of course Spanish-Dominant, the ratings for many Spanish-language stations would go south to an extent. How can anyone dispute that? All one has to do is compare population demographics of the LA market from 30 years ago vs today and then compare the number of Spanish-language radio stations 30 years ago in LA to the number existing today. Any intelligent person can draw the expected conclusion.

I disagree. Ratings will grow if more people come, but they will not go down for many many years if te flow is reduced (there will always be family reunification, and other legal immigrants from Mexico). The market is what it is today, and there will be 25 or more shares for Spanish and Spanglish for longer than I care to project. And the fact that the only non-immigrant growth in the LA metro comes from Hispanic births (non-Hispanic is in decline, in fact) will provide plenty of listening... probably for more time than today's radio is a viable business model.

Why is this important to some of us? Putting aside all the security, social, and economic impacts this migration affects and just restricting it to radio, some of us are English-speaking only and our choices in over the air radio listening have dropped appreciably. Even NYC has fewer Spanish language radio stations %-wise than the LA market.

NY has less than a third of the spanish dominant 12+ population that LA does, so there is a pretty good station count indexing. NY has 6 Spanish stations, and LA has about 16 (excluding brokered in both markets). Radio tends to serve populations in proportion to their size, so this makes great sense.

Those who are Spanish speaking have far less formats to pick from than English speakers, so it works both ways.

That's sure is calling the kettle...uh....brown.
The best thing you could have done was never butt-in with your first post on something you have zero knowledge about.

The only vitriolic flavor is your racist accusations about me.

All of my posts relate back to radio and radio in Los Angeles. If their were not a million plus illegal aliens in the Los Angeles area, the radio scene would be QUITE different than it is today. And since Univision allows advertisers to target illegal aliens with ads to open bank accounts with sham i.d.'s, it sure does relate. That's aiding and abetting. Isn't that the slogan for the illegal alien broadcast company known as Univision.

Here's some more fact for you. Over the last 25 years, illegal aliens have cost U.S. taxpayers $2 trillion dollars.
In the city of Los Angeles, 95 percent of all outstanding warrants for homicide (which total 1,200 to 1,500) target illegal aliens. Up to two-thirds of all fugitive felony warrants (17,000) are for illegal aliens in Los Angeles.
More than 50% of illegal aliens are dropouts from school and their children in Los Angeles schools are dropping out at a rate as high or higher than their illegal alien parents.
Quite a pathetic group of undereducated listeners without desirable incomes for Univision. But plenty more WIC ads in Spanish...I expect

 

[OldGringo]

Here are low figures for mixed households that include illegal aliens and legal residents mostly by birth from an illegal alien. Pew Hispanic numbers are generally considered low. These results are based on the 2000 census updated with estimates in 2004. For now, I would add at least 25% to these numbers, if not more.

Nearly 14 million people (including 4.7 million children) live in "mixed status" families - in which the head of the household or the spouse is in the US illegally - Pew reported last summer. This is partly because children born in the US- regardless of their parents' legal status - are automatically US citizens.

As is typical, and for which reason it is getting tedious to answer your, you have read wrong the data. The data on mixed households is from 2004, but the populaiton estimates are from 2005. You can not even read a table, yet you inject an opinion that the Pew numbers "are low." Low based on what? Your agenda? NOBODY knows for sure the count, but all reputable sources pin the 2005-2006 range within 11 to 12 million, of which about 6 to 7 million are Mexican.

There are 13.9 million persons living in families where there is one or more illegal immigrants in the family unit. That does not mean that there are 13.9 million illegals... it means that most of the 11.5 to 12 million (2006 estimate) in illegals are living in families or familiy units where there may be both legal and illegal.

The FAIR, the PEW and other non-partisan all show a range of 11 to 12 milion.

So as we see, illegal aliens do directly affect the numbers of listeners that Arbitron measures. Again, David's spin is exposed as incorrect. Which won't be a shock to anyone.

How do people who generally will not respond to a survey contribute to Arbitron?

 

[klifhanger]

I had to laugh hard at this one!
First off; MB1 One post then a response is necessary or just <shudder> consolidate your info. into one.The only time consolidation makes sense. That being said I studied your information and compared it to information elsewhere. YOU ARE CORRECT!

From the Master of Grand Illusion David Edward Frackleton Gleason ;


"the data on mixed households is from 2004, but the populaiton estimates are from 2005. You can not even read a table, yet you inject an opinion that the Pew numbers "are low." Low based on what?"
Even with his talent of typos, he himself is at fault for NOT reading the
stats correctly. He has a problem with reading and comprehension.Then again knowing how David will go all out to Fabricate information, spin,and just out right lie rather than confess
he is wrong,he argues.Its been his policy to distort and report, and he he does it well. He bases it on that nobody will dig deep and do their homework, rather they will take the lazy way out and accept it on face value based on his shady credentials. Again folks you really need to research this guy,he is a living fantasy of distorting facts.

 

[dbdigital]

Spanish "dominant". For most people, you don't need to be "dominant" in any language except English if you are here legally. And if don't speak English, learn it. We aren't a country of a 1000 tongues (or at least we won't be soon).
Good to see Maricopa County's Sheriff is making his illegal alien prisoners learn english so they can speak to the judge in the correct language of this land. And it isn't even on the taxpayers dime as it's payed by collect phone call fees.

What I find annoying is the ethnocentricity many hispanic broadcasters working in English-language media display. They make a big song-and-dance about Spanish names and words, making sure that they are pronounced correctly to the point of exaggeration (obviously to "educate" non-Spanish speakers) while mangling the pronunciation of names and words from other languages.

A case in point is Lynette Romero. A couple of weeks ago she was co-anchoring with Frank Buckley on KTLA, filling in for Leyla Feinstein. A news report about the President of Iran came up and she totally embarrassed herself by stumbling badly while pronouncing his name. She wouldn't even use his name for the rest of the report. Sylvia Lopez did something similar on one of her KCAL broadcasts.

They seem so caught up in this 'pride of heritage' nonsense that they lose their objectivity and professionalism. The least these broadcasters can do is educate themselves on the proper pronunciation of world leaders and geographical locations.

db

 

[BACKnUSSR]

It's quite an asssumption that the "more than 50%" of the Hispanic population will grow up to support and sustain Hispanic media. The children born here will be much more fluent in english.

First, the existing Spanish dominant population will sustain at least the current level of Spanish langauge broadcasting for decades, although it will age. This is not an issue, as at present the Hisapnic population is very young, and it will be along time before it ages outside of sales demos.

David.....obviously you must admit to your spin here....we're not talking about the current, aging, Spanish dominant audience. We're discussing those born here.....who dont necessarily guarantee they will support a station that their parent's relied upon.

Might not they grow up to listen to stations owned by CBS, Emmis, Entercom and dare I say it...Clear Channel?

Clear has launched about 30 Spanish stations in the last couple of years, so they are already in. CBS has a deal with SBS under which several FMs have gone Spanish for CBS such as the ones in Tampa and DC.

There is always going to be some advantage to the specialist approach with a company run with Hispanics in mind and not as an afterthought.

Well I was thinking more along the lines that these youngsters might not listen to "Hispanic-only" programmed formats and might branch out to Top 40, Hot AC, Rhythmic, Alternative, Urban, Country and a whole host of formats that these companies have had a bit of success with.

I think the future of Hispanic media is a bit uncertain, because while some media companies tend to reach out to all races and groups..... others simply do not.

LA is currently over 60% Spanish dominant, meaning there are about 25 shares for Spanish stations. Music tasted do not change over time, even if a person learns English and assimilates a bit... so this huge group is going to sustain the Spanish langauge stations for a long time, while newer youth formats just for Hispanics evolve.

[/quote]

Music tastes dont change over time? You mean adult formats are a myth? You mean kids love Andrea Bocelli? You mean my three year old will be buying "Tickle Me Elmo Sings" when he's in his 30's?

PS: Why do so many threads end up becoming discussions of immigration?

... because people who do not like Hispanics or other immigrants play the immigration card to further an agenda of bigotry.

In a later post David, you say its because the Hispanic community has become such a force in LA radio.
And can you explain to me exactly what this had to do with Cliff Winston??

 

[OldGringo]

David.....obviously you must admit to your spin here....we're not talking about the current, aging, Spanish dominant audience. We're discussing those born here.....who dont necessarily guarantee they will support a station that their parent's relied upon.

There is considerable use of Spanish radio by second generation, as most of the music (especially among Mexican and Mexican American audiences) is multi-generational. Simply, lots of second generation, who tend to be bilingual, listen to both English and Spanish radio. So, instead of having three or 4 favorite Spanish staitons like a Gen 1, they will have a couple in Spanish and a couple in Spanish. For example, a significant percentage of KLVE callers speak English, or bad "pocho" Spanish... KRCD gets lots of "pocho" Spanish calls, meaning maybe a third of the audience is second generation. And that matches the 60% Spanish dominant / 40% English dominant for LA Hispanics.

Well I was thinking more along the lines that these youngsters might not listen to "Hispanic-only" programmed formats and might branch out to Top 40, Hot AC, Rhythmic, Alternative, Urban, Country and a whole host of formats that these companies have had a bit of success with.

Hispanic stations can be in English or Spanish or Spanish. The Beat in SA is an Hispanic station, Kiss in Albuquerque is an Hispanic station, and so on. Thes are 100% English in announcing and in music. Or KXTN in SA... most of the airstaff speaks no Spanish, but it plays Tejano music which is in Spanish. Unique cultural differences that can not be served by mainstream general market Spanish stations.

Music tastes dont change over time? You mean adult formats are a myth? You mean kids love Andrea Bocelli? You mean my three year old will be buying "Tickle Me Elmo Sings" when he's in his 30's?

OK, I was not clear enough. Musical taste is formed in early adolesence. Nearly everthing in later life is simply a maturation of the base tastes formed in that 11 to 15 or 16 age range. A CHR partisan may more to Alternative on one side, or to Hot AC on the other or to softer AC later... but there is a connection between adolescent taste. Maturation changes the form of the taste, but the base is about the same all through life.

An example is that I grew up on several forms of Latin music, and there is no way I would listen to any English langauge music station because the music sounds, to me, like a broken diswasher.

 

[BACKnUSSR]

There is considerable use of Spanish radio by second generation, as most of the music (especially among Mexican and Mexican American audiences) is multi-generational. Simply, lots of second generation, who tend to be bilingual, listen to both English and Spanish radio. So, instead of having three or 4 favorite Spanish staitons like a Gen 1, they will have a couple in Spanish and a couple in Spanish. For example, a significant percentage of KLVE callers speak English, or bad "pocho" Spanish... KRCD gets lots of "pocho" Spanish calls, meaning maybe a third of the audience is second generation. And that matches the 60% Spanish dominant / 40% English dominant for LA Hispanics.

So, you've made my point. Obviously you meant Gen 1 has 4 Spanish speaking stations and Gen 2 has 2 in Spanish and 2 in English....(which says to me the listenership to the Spanish speaking stations gets cut in HALF by the second generation).
Well I was thinking more along the lines that these youngsters might not listen to "Hispanic-only" programmed formats and might branch out to Top 40, Hot AC, Rhythmic, Alternative, Urban, Country and a whole host of formats that these companies have had a bit of success with.

OK, I was not clear enough. Musical taste is formed in early adolesence. Nearly everthing in later life is simply a maturation of the base tastes formed in that 11 to 15 or 16 age range. A CHR partisan may more to Alternative on one side, or to Hot AC on the other or to softer AC later... but there is a connection between adolescent taste. Maturation changes the form of the taste, but the base is about the same all through life.

An example is that I grew up on several forms of Latin music, and there is no way I would listen to any English langauge music station because the music sounds, to me, like a broken diswasher.

So what you are saying is that anyone who grew up (as you have) with a certain form of music cannot relate to any other?
I know that you don't listen (as you have stated) but are you aware of the increase in country radio listenership that has happened in many markets over the past decade at the expense of rock stations?

What do you suppose immigrants listen to from other groups? Persians, Russians, Various Eastern Europeans?

 

[OldGringo]

So, you've made my point. Obviously you meant Gen 1 has 4 Spanish speaking stations and Gen 2 has 2 in Spanish and 2 in English....(which says to me the listenership to the Spanish speaking stations gets cut in HALF by the second generation).

Not necessarily. A P1 station gets around 15 hours of an average person's listening, a P2 only about 6 and P3 and P4 are maybe an hour or two among Hispanics. So all depends on the P1 choice, mostly.

An example of this would, again, be KLVE, which gets about 15% of its AQH listening from English dominant Hispanics.... and that group is 39% of the total Hispanic population. So, it underindexes, but it still gets lots of listening from the smaller of the two groups.

Keep in mind that Spanish dominants seldom change to English dominant...

Well I was thinking more along the lines that these youngsters might not listen to "Hispanic-only" programmed formats and might branch out to Top 40, Hot AC, Rhythmic, Alternative, Urban, Country and a whole host of formats that these companies have had a bit of success with.

In the big Hispanic markets, CHR is already very Hispanic influenced. The listening to Alternative is more likely in third generation and beyond, country (based on Texas examples) is 4th generation and beyond, and so on. Rhythmic AC, like Movin', is specifically targeted at Hispanics anyway, so that one is natiural. Urban does not do very well with Hispanics, except in some metros that are very Caribbean driven.

In LA, except for KZLA (less than 10% Hispanic at the end) every English format, from KTWV to KOST to KMZT has a significant Hispanic listenership. Some, like KIIS, way overindex, and others, such as KOST, underindex. But they all have Hispanic listening.

In LA, the 12+ Hispanic ranker (all Hispanics) is KSCA, KLVE (tie), KLAX, KBUE, KXOL (bilingual), KRCD, KIIS, KPWR, KSSE, KROQ, KHJ, KHHT, KLYY, KBIG, KRTH, KCBS, KTNQ, KOST, KTWV, KWIZ, KLTX, KYSR, KKBT, KLOS, KWKW, KLSX, KFI, KDAY.

Since Spanish dominants stay so all thier life usually, and since music taste is a continuum of childhood experience, those who are spanish dominant today will continue for decades listening to Spanish radio.

So what you are saying is that anyone who grew up (as you have) with a certain form of music cannot relate to any other?
I know that you don't listen (as you have stated) but are you aware of the increase in country radio listenership that has happened in many markets over the past decade at the expense of rock stations?

No, I am saying that cultural anthropologists and sociologists have studied this at length, and adult music taste is based on early adolescent experience. Most people follow a straight line of musical preferences based on a progression of the yound, young adult and mature adult variants of music... or they staty with the youth music via classic whatever stations and oldies stations. People seldom venture far from the root music taste... obviously there are exceptions, but we are talking about mass media, not about more niche exceptions.

Did you know that coutry and oldies share a lot? And rock and country do in the prime country markets, because country tends to thrive when a market is a country lifestyle market... so "rockers" will have been exposed to country if they live in Lubbok or Montgomery or Talahassee. If a person, in adolescence, is exposed to the base forms of several music types, they will like several kinds of music as an adult. In my case, I like both Spanish pop and "regional" and tropical, because I listened to all three kinds from early teens on... and the pop station I listened to played some US Top 40, so I do relate to "Sealed with a kiss" and "Suspicious minds" too.

 

[BACKnUSSR]

So, you've made my point. Obviously you meant Gen 1 has 4 Spanish speaking stations and Gen 2 has 2 in Spanish and 2 in English....(which says to me the listenership to the Spanish speaking stations gets cut in HALF by the second generation).

Not necessarily. A P1 station gets around 15 hours of an average person's listening, a P2 only about 6 and P3 and P4 are maybe an hour or two among Hispanics. So all depends on the P1 choice, mostly.

An example of this would, again, be KLVE, which gets about 15% of its AQH listening from English dominant Hispanics.... and that group is 39% of the total Hispanic population. So, it underindexes, but it still gets lots of listening from the smaller of the two groups.

Keep in mind that Spanish dominants seldom change to English dominant...

Not necessarily (as in almost any case of measurement of listening) but quite possible (and maybe even likely).
Its good to see you back off your statement a bit, and realize that its not a lock that the Spanish-language stations to build their base or even keep 2nd Gen. Unless they evolve, they will need to rely upon newly-arrived Spanish speaking listeners to grow.

Well I was thinking more along the lines that these youngsters might not listen to "Hispanic-only" programmed formats and might branch out to Top 40, Hot AC, Rhythmic, Alternative, Urban, Country and a whole host of formats that these companies have had a bit of success with.

In the big Hispanic markets, CHR is already very Hispanic influenced. The listening to Alternative is more likely in third generation and beyond, country (based on Texas examples) is 4th generation and beyond, and so on. Rhythmic AC, like Movin', is specifically targeted at Hispanics anyway, so that one is natiural. Urban does not do very well with Hispanics, except in some metros that are very Caribbean driven.

In LA, except for KZLA (less than 10% Hispanic at the end) every English format, from KTWV to KOST to KMZT has a significant Hispanic listenership. Some, like KIIS, way overindex, and others, such as KOST, underindex. But they all have Hispanic listening.

Well....yeah, pretty obvious that CHR stations in "big Hispanic markets" would be Hispanic influenced. The better stations always tried to tailor to the mass audience anyway. I think its a bit presumptious to rank what folks listen to by generation.....are you suggesting that KROQ's Hispanic audience lacks in 2nd Gen?

Since Spanish dominants stay so all thier life usually, and since music taste is a continuum of childhood experience, those who are spanish dominant today will continue for decades listening to Spanish radio.

Yes... on the Spanish dominant thing.....I was never talking about them.....we were talking about the 50% of domestically born who have yet to develop their listening habits. As for the assertion, that music taste doesnt evolve, its good to see that you agree with yourself.

So what you are saying is that anyone who grew up (as you have) with a certain form of music cannot relate to any other?
I know that you don't listen (as you have stated) but are you aware of the increase in country radio listenership that has happened in many markets over the past decade at the expense of rock stations?

No, I am saying that cultural anthropologists and sociologists have studied this at length, and adult music taste is based on early adolescent experience. Most people follow a straight line of musical preferences based on a progression of the yound, young adult and mature adult variants of music... or they staty with the youth music via classic whatever stations and oldies stations. People seldom venture far from the root music taste... obviously there are exceptions, but we are talking about mass media, not about more niche exceptions.

So cultural anthropologists and sociologists cite your dishwater comment as proof?

Did you know that coutry and oldies share a lot? And rock and country do in the prime country markets, because country tends to thrive when a market is a country lifestyle market... so "rockers" will have been exposed to country if they live in Lubbok or Montgomery or Talahassee. If a person, in adolescence, is exposed to the base forms of several music types, they will like several kinds of music as an adult. In my case, I like both Spanish pop and "regional" and tropical, because I listened to all three kinds from early teens on... and the pop station I listened to played some US Top 40, so I do relate to "Sealed with a kiss" and "Suspicious minds" too.

In some cases they do. And rock does, and AC's do.....what's your point? Your case may not be the universal measuring stick. Listening habits have changed drastically in America since Brian Hyland and Elvis ruled the Top 40 charts.

 

[SuperRadioFan]

realize that its not a lock that the Spanish-language stations to build their base or even keep 2nd Gen. Unless they evolve, they will need to rely upon newly-arrived Spanish speaking listeners to grow.

Of course in David's mind those newly-arrived will be legal...that way they can legally be counted by Arbitron ;D


Do you know that David admitted to me and the oldies board that he has a bunch of oldies songs on his I-Pod? A few years ago on the "Oldies" board [known today as 50s-60s oldies] we had a discussion and I was of the opinion that David had no passion for 50s and 60s oldies and because of that bias, his statements had to be viewed with that bias in mind. So David defended himself talking about that he did indeed like some oldies (I asked him to name some titles), he posted a list of a bunch on his I-Pod, he said he did like them because he programmed some Top 40 stations playing American Top 40 music. So when he talks disdainfully about English language music and how he can't stand to listen to much of it, I just smile.

We can now expect David to counter each word I have just posted, and this "thread" will go on to over a hundred+ posts LOL!!

 

[klifhanger]

"We can now expect David to counter each word I have just posted, and this "thread" will go on to over a hundred+ posts LOL!! "

Heaven Forbid "The Master of Grand Illusion" admit to such dastardly accusations!!??! Yes, and the Winter Olympics will be held outside of Mecca in Saudi Arabia.

Once again folks if you really have some time on your hands and research this guy,speak to those he has worked with,or those who worked for him,. You will find that many accomplishments he lays claim to ,actually were done by others he associated with at the time. His creativity in embellishment is impressive,but it stops right there. His "success" <sic> for the stations in San Antonio WERE NOT BY HIS DOING but by a PD who was dismissed after 5 years. He then claims he "righted the ship" His ship is taking on water, and this charlatan is being unveiled. Enjoy the ride Davey.

 

[OldGringo]

Not necessarily (as in almost any case of measurement of listening) but quite possible (and maybe even likely).
Its good to see you back off your statement a bit, and realize that its not a lock that the Spanish-language stations to build their base or even keep 2nd Gen. Unless they evolve, they will need to rely upon newly-arrived Spanish speaking listeners to grow.

My point is that there are already 25 to 26 shares for the Spanish language stations in LA, and even if there is no increase caused by more immigrants, those shares will remain constant for decades, although the average age of stations will go up.

There will be an increase in Spanish dominants, as there are hundreds of thousands of legal Hispanic residents coming in, on the family reunification and visa lottery programs. It does not require illegal immigration to have moderate growth.

Many think that Spanish language radio has benefited in the last 5 to 10 years from illegal immigration and huge population growth. This is not so.

In LA, in 1998, the percentage Hispanic was 39.35% of the market, which was 10.2 million 12+
In 2006, the percentage Hispanic is 40.7% of the market, which is now 10.8 million.

The market grew by 600,000, nearly 100% of the growth coming from Hispanics. Black and non-Hispanic white are flat or off a bit. But we are talking about less than 75,000 new Hispanics per year in each of the last 9 years. There is no "huge growth" of the Hispanic population. What there is is proportionality in Arbitron for Spanish dominant and English dominant Hispanics, which did not perviously exist.

So, Spanish langauge stations can retain their current share levels as a group simply by doing what they do now. There is no need for anything but the legal inflow of immigrants we have had all along. And, as one can tell from the numbers, Arbitron population data does not contemplate a huge influx that could be ascribed to illegal immigration; that assertation is a myth created by those who have simply not looked at the numbers.

Second generation Hispanics will use Spanish langauge radio, too. So, even if thy mix with English stations, they will contribute quarter hours and in the PPM world, will enormously benefit the Spanish language stations. Speaking fluent English does not erase one's heritage, and Hispanic homes are multigenerational and taste in music has much fewer generational demarcations.

Well....yeah, pretty obvious that CHR stations in "big Hispanic markets" would be Hispanic influenced. The better stations always tried to tailor to the mass audience anyway. I think its a bit presumptious to rank what folks listen to by generation.....are you suggesting that KROQ's Hispanic audience lacks in 2nd Gen?

It is likely (there is no publicly available data) that KROQ Hispanics lean more toward third generation and beyond. In research on Spanish speaking (bilingual and Spanish dominant) the station does not perform well... which suggests without 100% proving this conclusion.

Yes... on the Spanish dominant thing.....I was never talking about them.....we were talking about the 50% of domestically born who have yet to develop their listening habits. As for the assertion, that music taste doesnt evolve, its good to see that you agree with yourself.

The second generation is bilingual. In a community with critical mass, where you don't need to use English as much as places with smaller communities, the second generation will lean more to Spanish. And that would apply to LA.

So cultural anthropologists and sociologists cite your dishwater comment as proof?

No, there are considerable studies of where in life musical tastes are acquired. And that is in early adolesence. The environment at that stage determines the basis of musical taste thereon in life. Some people broaden somewhat, but most are just a progression that is modified by maturation, not by a change in taste.

In some cases they do. And rock does, and AC's do.....what's your point? Your case may not be the universal measuring stick. Listening habits have changed drastically in America since Brian Hyland and Elvis ruled the Top 40 charts.

This is mostly because there are more subsets of music. CHR and Alternative and rock are related... and the prevailing local culture has influences... a person exposed to country in Texas from an early age may reject it as a teen, but may... based on exposure... gravitate to it as rock/CHR changes because country sounds more like 60's and 70's pop than current Hip Hop does!

 

[OldGringo]

Once again folks if you really have some time on your hands and research this guy,speak to those he has worked with,or those who worked for him,. You will find that many accomplishments he lays claim to ,actually were done by others he associated with at the time. His creativity in embellishment is impressive,but it stops right there. His "success" <sic> for the stations in San Antonio WERE NOT BY HIS DOING but by a PD who was dismissed after 5 years. He then claims he "righted the ship" His ship is taking on water, and this charlatan is being unveiled. Enjoy the ride Davey.

I am NOT claiming any of the KKBT success was of my direct doing, although I was part of the total company team and was involved. We are all, however, most proud of what has happened at KBBT and, particularly, of what Cindy Hill is doing with it today with the assistance from Pete Manriquez, JD and the entire programming team.

The original PD of KKBT is now the VP of Programming of the company, and was not dismissed. I work with him every day, in fact, and he would be surprised to know that he was fired. Your statement to the contrary is just simply wrong.

No single person is responsible for the direct success of 74 radio stations. My role ranges from total hands on at some stations to an advisory and support role in others.

 

[OldGringo]

Of course in David's mind those newly-arrived will be legal...that way they can legally be counted by Arbitron ;D

Since the entire Hispnic growth of LA from 1998 to present has been on average around 75,000 persons a year, that is within the legal immigrant range for each of these years, as I expalined in an earlier post based on the Arbitron population data in the "Sample" report for each book and trend.

Do you know that David admitted to me and the oldies board that he has a bunch of oldies songs on his I-Pod? A few years ago on the "Oldies" board [known today as 50s-60s oldies] we had a discussion and I was of the opinion that David had no passion for 50s and 60s oldies and because of that bias, his statements had to be viewed with that bias in mind. So David defended himself talking about that he did indeed like some oldies (I asked him to name some titles), he posted a list of a bunch on his I-Pod, he said he did like them because he programmed some Top 40 stations playing American Top 40 music. So when he talks disdainfully about English language music and how he can't stand to listen to much of it, I just smile.

As mentioned frequently, I had a Top 40 station that I programmed myself and which played Spanish, English, French and Italian hits of the 60's. Because I worked with the music, I acquired a limited taste for it, as I have mentioned, too. For example, I like CCR and not the Beatles, because CCR was popular in Latin America to a vastly greater extent than The Beatles... a lot of Motown was not popular, so I don't like it. All this was used as an anecdotal example of when one is exposed to music and how that forms a person's lifetime music taste. I also have hundreds of songs by Rita Pavone, Dominico Modugno, Adriano Celentano, I Pooh and similar Italian artists and many more by Francophone artists like Gilbert Becaud, Herve Villard, Salvatore Adamo, Johnny Halliday, Marie Laforet, Sylvie Vartan, etc. And that was because I was exposed to them. I don't have any ZZ Topp and "classic rock" cuts, though. And all are overwhelmed by about 2000 Vallenato tunes I have, ranging back to the 30's.

 

[OldGringo]

" His "success" <sic> for the stations in San Antonio WERE NOT BY HIS DOING but by a PD who was dismissed after 5 years. He then claims he "righted the ship" His ship is taking on water, and this charlatan is being unveiled. Enjoy the ride Davey.

And, ;D your ship sank.

I got exact dates.

J.D. González signed KBBT on September 28, 2000.

He remained PD until March, 2004, when he became OM and Station Manager for the HBC cluster in Houston, a promotion. A year later, he became VP of Programming.

There was no "5 year" PD, and there was no firing.

There was no "righting the ship" as The Beat has been #1 since its first full book.

Your post is 100% wrong.

 

[BACKnUSSR]

Not necessarily (as in almost any case of measurement of listening) but quite possible (and maybe even likely).
Its good to see you back off your statement a bit, and realize that its not a lock that the Spanish-language stations to build their base or even keep 2nd Gen. Unless they evolve, they will need to rely upon newly-arrived Spanish speaking listeners to grow.

My point is that there are already 25 to 26 shares for the Spanish language stations in LA, and even if there is no increase caused by more immigrants, those shares will remain constant for decades, although the average age of stations will go up.

In fact, that wasn't your point.

Per the Census, 16 million Hispanics are not born in the US. Of 36 million in total (2000), 20 million were born here. Of the 16 million foreign born, 32% are naturalized citizens, so just about 10 million are neither born here or naturalized, of which a large percent are legalized residents who are not citizens. In other words, about 6 million might be illegal. That leaves 30 million legal Hispanics.

And given the fact that more than 50% of the growth of the Hispanic population is from births (citizens) there is ample internal growth to sustain Hispanic media further into the future than we can even project.

What you're saying is that 50% of the growth of the audience is from births here. And you're making the assumption they are committed to listening to Spanish language programming, which they are simply not. There will be erosion (without the influx of new immigrants). And if legal immigration is slowed, the growth of the stations will be nothing like it has been...(unless of course illegals are responsible in some part to that growth).

 

[OldGringo]

In fact, that wasn't your point.

In my previous post, it was. There are and have been for about 10 years about 25 Spanish language shares. So if no new immigrants come in, there will still be these shares, at least.

And given the fact that more than 50% of the growth of the Hispanic population is from births (citizens) there is ample internal growth to sustain Hispanic media further into the future than we can even project.

But those currently listening to Spanish will continue. As the market is hardly growing, the Spanish listening will stay flat. And since some of the second generation listening is to Spanish, the total shares may grow.

What you're saying is that 50% of the growth of the audience is from births here.

No. I am saying that 50% of the Hispanic population growth comes from births. Of roughly 550,000 new Hispanics in the area in the last 9 years (per Arbitron, 12+), half are immigrants and half are born here.

And you're making the assumption they are committed to listening to Spanish language programming, which they are simply not.

The people listening today to Spanish language raido will be doing it tomorrow and in 2020. Since the population is hardly growiing, and what growth there is all Hispanic, the shares at least will stay the same if they don't increase.

There will be erosion (without the influx of new immigrants).

How can there be erosion if the current listener base continues to be Spanish dominant and to listen? There may be growth, as second generation tends to split between English and Spanish usage, so those listeners... even though they listen less to Spanish... will be on top of the current listener base. Since the community has an average age around 22, very few are in the older demos.

And if legal immigration is slowed, the growth of the stations will be nothing like it has been...(unless of course illegals are responsible in some part to that growth).

We have not had any significant share growth, except by one methodology adjustment, in 10 to 12 years. We do not need growth of the local Hisánic market... LA as a metro is basically out of land and growth potential, having increased by less than 600 thousand in the last 9 years. So the existing Hispanic population will grow, because that is the only growth sector... biut it will grow based on the birth rate. Those listening to Spanish radio will not decline, and will be added to by the lighter usage... but still usage... of the second generation as it moves into the sales demos of 18-49 and 25-54.