Is it really necessary to use the same programming clocks that radio has been using for decades? Commercials at :15 and :45, on all stations. How is that being visionary? These commercial PODS are ridiculous. Are you telling me that this is the ONLY way radio can think of promoting ad clients on air? What about no commercials every hour, and finding another way to promote clients on air, something inovative, and earcatching? The whole thing is getting very lame.
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Clocks
- Thread starter superset weekend
- Start date
superset weekend said:
The closest you can get to that is one sponsor per hour...and that *did* work at one point, but the idea did not catch on.
KQLZ in L.A. was the station.
"the echo-ey on air sound of the DJs and repeated announcements that this station will play NO commercials! (Incredibly, not ONE was played the first two weeks! That first commercial went for a then record $2,000! Subsequent spots were $1,000-1,500. And they intentionally sold only one spot per hour.)"
Source: http://www.kqlz.com/pirateradio1.html
Good insight Y. But i would be looking to re-invent the clock philosophy. With any radio station you have to think about a few key things, Audience, Advertisers, and Bottom Line. I think you could satisfy all three elements without having to follow these stupid, outdated, over researched, clocks. Programming needs to be INNOVATIVE to do this, they have to THINK. What i am proposing is NO "commercials", the kind we know now, ya know, the :60's and "30's. REplace those commercials, with messages, read by the AIR PERSONALITY. Yes, a PAID air personality, whos very job it is to GET THE MARKET PUMPED.
This CAN be done, and should be done, atleast in some form. A radio station could make the same great profits, and deviate at the same time. Let me make one point. Radio Stations are making ALOT of money. However, this is not neccesarily due to programming. National advertisers buy radio solely on ratings and listeners, and national is WAY DOWN. The only reason radio continues to make alot of money is local, direct business, which is becuase of radio salespeople, not programming. Infact, if it were not for the radio salespeople, radio would not be making the profits it makes, beacuse nation stuff realizes that the medium is very fragmented and does not get the results it used too for advertisers.
This CAN be done, and should be done, atleast in some form. A radio station could make the same great profits, and deviate at the same time. Let me make one point. Radio Stations are making ALOT of money. However, this is not neccesarily due to programming. National advertisers buy radio solely on ratings and listeners, and national is WAY DOWN. The only reason radio continues to make alot of money is local, direct business, which is becuase of radio salespeople, not programming. Infact, if it were not for the radio salespeople, radio would not be making the profits it makes, beacuse nation stuff realizes that the medium is very fragmented and does not get the results it used too for advertisers.
You'd think that more programmers would be paying attention to Q-107 in Toronto. They're doing more stopsets per hour, but maxing the stopsets at 2 minutes. I find myself half way through the stopset before I notice that they're in commercials, and hanging out through the last minute of spots because I know that a song is only a minute away.
You are correct Rox. Something has got to change, because this model is stale. This research and safety has hurt radio, and will hurt it even further in the future. What ever happened to "go with you gut" programming? You know, the kind that put radio on the friggin map??
Cleaning Clocks
Personal computers and spreadsheets have replaced "go with your gut" programming. They've also replace a lot of middle-management positions in virtually every industry on the planet. Investors want positive results, based on reliable statistics. Bean-counters have tried to quantify listener response through endless research. Unfortunately, research can be flawed - as can the results.
"Go with your gut" programmers rarely exist in the business these days. A few guys are smart enough to bend research to reflect their own viewpoint. Otherwise, you have to be right EVERY time if you want to keep working. One bad book can be enough to do you in if you buck the trends.
superset weekend said:
Personal computers and spreadsheets have replaced "go with your gut" programming. They've also replace a lot of middle-management positions in virtually every industry on the planet. Investors want positive results, based on reliable statistics. Bean-counters have tried to quantify listener response through endless research. Unfortunately, research can be flawed - as can the results.
"Go with your gut" programmers rarely exist in the business these days. A few guys are smart enough to bend research to reflect their own viewpoint. Otherwise, you have to be right EVERY time if you want to keep working. One bad book can be enough to do you in if you buck the trends.
Persons Using Radio (PUR) is up. Time Spent Listening (TSL) is down. Arbitron, consultants and research companies have done extensive analysis of this development. PPM methodology (as opposed to diary methodology), has shown radio to be a CUME medium rather than a TSL medium. Morning drive is impacted primarily. At work listening as we know it with diary attributed listening may change significantly with PPM attributed listening.
Recent research by the Edison group indicates that listeners remain listening through commercial breaks in substantial numbers through approximately five minutes. Commercial breaks (often called stopsets) in excess of five minutes create erosion, but still, a surprising number of listeners keep listening to the station.
More than the length of the cluster and its placement the research notes a distinction with regard to demo and location of the listener and the quality and creativity of the commercials. Traditionally, commercial breaks are placed at 18, 36 and 48 in music formats. This has more to do with playing the "Arbitron diary game," but as the industry moves to PPM, the conventional wisdom of placing breaks at 18, 36, 48 may go the way of the Fidelipac cartridge and ITC triple deck cart machine.
Endorsement advertising, i.e., the jock reading all the commercials and "throwing himself into the presentation" has limits. Endorsements work best with established personalities, in specific formats, especially in morning drive and in news-talk formats. However, the proven downside of commercial sponsor endorsements is that there is a limit to the number of endorsements before the listener reaches a point whereby the endorser-air personality loses credibility.
You may notice that WBEN and other stations try to limit their live endorsements to one per break. Also, you'll notice it's usually placed as the second unit in the commercial break.
Many programmers and radio companies have attempted to change platforms with regard to commercial structure. Most recently, Clear Channel has promoted "more is less" using 30 second commercials. Results are mixed. Thirty second commercials haven't proven to be the panacea they were thought to be, especially as sales departments priced them at 65 to 75 per cent of the cost of a 60 second commercial. Advertisers, local and agency, are not ignorant of this fact. If a whole pizza costs 15 bucks and a half pizza costs 10, you're better off buying a whole pizza.
A 30 second commercial does have an advantage IF the commercial package allows for highly increased frequency (here we get into Impressions and Gross Rating Points and all that sales mumbo jumbo) on the proper station. Few advertisers craft separate commercial plans for 30s and 60s running on varied formats. With today's technology, it'd would seem simple, but there are complications that arise from other areas, notably traffic and billing. It's simple, but it's not easy.
New paradigms are fun to talk about and explore on message boards, but there's a science to proving their value and worth. I'm not opposed to trying to "re-invent the wheel," as long as the new wheel rolls more efficiently and is better than the "old" wheel.
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Recent research by the Edison group indicates that listeners remain listening through commercial breaks in substantial numbers through approximately five minutes. Commercial breaks (often called stopsets) in excess of five minutes create erosion, but still, a surprising number of listeners keep listening to the station.
More than the length of the cluster and its placement the research notes a distinction with regard to demo and location of the listener and the quality and creativity of the commercials. Traditionally, commercial breaks are placed at 18, 36 and 48 in music formats. This has more to do with playing the "Arbitron diary game," but as the industry moves to PPM, the conventional wisdom of placing breaks at 18, 36, 48 may go the way of the Fidelipac cartridge and ITC triple deck cart machine.
Endorsement advertising, i.e., the jock reading all the commercials and "throwing himself into the presentation" has limits. Endorsements work best with established personalities, in specific formats, especially in morning drive and in news-talk formats. However, the proven downside of commercial sponsor endorsements is that there is a limit to the number of endorsements before the listener reaches a point whereby the endorser-air personality loses credibility.
You may notice that WBEN and other stations try to limit their live endorsements to one per break. Also, you'll notice it's usually placed as the second unit in the commercial break.
Many programmers and radio companies have attempted to change platforms with regard to commercial structure. Most recently, Clear Channel has promoted "more is less" using 30 second commercials. Results are mixed. Thirty second commercials haven't proven to be the panacea they were thought to be, especially as sales departments priced them at 65 to 75 per cent of the cost of a 60 second commercial. Advertisers, local and agency, are not ignorant of this fact. If a whole pizza costs 15 bucks and a half pizza costs 10, you're better off buying a whole pizza.
A 30 second commercial does have an advantage IF the commercial package allows for highly increased frequency (here we get into Impressions and Gross Rating Points and all that sales mumbo jumbo) on the proper station. Few advertisers craft separate commercial plans for 30s and 60s running on varied formats. With today's technology, it'd would seem simple, but there are complications that arise from other areas, notably traffic and billing. It's simple, but it's not easy.
New paradigms are fun to talk about and explore on message boards, but there's a science to proving their value and worth. I'm not opposed to trying to "re-invent the wheel," as long as the new wheel rolls more efficiently and is better than the "old" wheel.
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Granted that it's an apples to oranges comparison, but in listening to a bunch of Old Time Radio shows on Sirius in the rental car last week, I was fascinated by how some of these shows worked what we now call "product placement" into the script... an approach that is coming back to some extent.
Perhaps the most pervasive of the shows I heard was Burns and Allen. Bill Goodwin, the announcer, would appear during the show and somehow manage to get Swan Soap into the plotline. For example, a movie star (I'll edit the name in as soon as I think of it) is mistaken for a real gangster. Bill Goodwin enters and threatens to hit the movie star over the head... with a bar of Swan Soap. The audiences were clearly familiar with this tactic as they laughed at the rather outrageous sponsor insertion.
Besides the 30 second commercials, I've also heard 10 second (or even 5 second?) spots. The impression on me has mostly been "what was that?" followed by immediate deletion from memory. And let's not forget the sponsoring of everything: "From the Mirror Motors traffic center here at the Dewey, Cheatem and Howe Studios here's your Pain Relief Aspirin Road Report..."
...although the worst example for me is national: the Heinz Red Zone during football radiocasts.
Perhaps the most pervasive of the shows I heard was Burns and Allen. Bill Goodwin, the announcer, would appear during the show and somehow manage to get Swan Soap into the plotline. For example, a movie star (I'll edit the name in as soon as I think of it) is mistaken for a real gangster. Bill Goodwin enters and threatens to hit the movie star over the head... with a bar of Swan Soap. The audiences were clearly familiar with this tactic as they laughed at the rather outrageous sponsor insertion.
Besides the 30 second commercials, I've also heard 10 second (or even 5 second?) spots. The impression on me has mostly been "what was that?" followed by immediate deletion from memory. And let's not forget the sponsoring of everything: "From the Mirror Motors traffic center here at the Dewey, Cheatem and Howe Studios here's your Pain Relief Aspirin Road Report..."
...although the worst example for me is national: the Heinz Red Zone during football radiocasts.
Amusing that you're essentially saying that radio needs tighter "product placement" within the normal programming...something that a lot of people on the TV side are railing against.
Personally I find those ads where a newscaster/talk personality is hawking a product to be the most offensive...because they're so often written to sound exactly like a news report, which catches my attention for upwards of 10 seconds before I realize it's another goddamn ad. Often for some total snake oil solution like "Element 12 Dietary Supplements" or Enzyte or some crap like that. Didn't journalists used to have some integrity?
We are not talking about poeple or jocks hawking products. My theory is much deepet than that, and involves out of the box thought. It can be done
Can you give us specifics? In an earlier post on another thread, you mentioned you had a "billion ideas" about a particular issue. Enlighten us. And welcome to the board, 'Set. I think you'll find this a welcoming community, especially if your posts and contentions are well-supported and you use a healthy dose of refined cynicism and humor. Some posters resort to using the sarcasm tag: [sarcasm]***[/sarcasm] to insure readers get the message.
Thanks Rad. I am glad to be a part of this, i can't give sepcifics now as i got to run to a meeting, however, i will do it tonite
B
Bob1370
Guest
My memory of CHR and hot AC radio from back in the day may be hazy (20 years of working in news/talk will do that to you)...but back in the 60s and 70s most contemporary or AC stations had a few fixed items in the hour clock (mostly news, weather and traffic reports, occasionally a scheduled play of the #1 song on the playlist). The rest was floating and might change from hour to hour or day to day within any daypart. That was fairly easy to do when all your stopsets were short, no more than a couple minutes, two or three spot units, and you spread them throughout the hour.
I skimmmed over this topic/post and thread
and what comes to mind, is the z103's live to aire,
at least in the late 90s/early 2000's....
during the broadcast, talent would back sell the music,
promote the club, and then hit a quick plug for energizer...
(big ID VOICE) would say, "live to aire, from ___________"
(sound efx),and about a :5 second spot,
"wedny's: its way delicious" / then, the first REAL COMMERCIAL.
so,
the club, got their spot.
the batteries, were included.
the club/again.
shameless self promotion,for the station,
a quick "zing" for the fast food place, and
then the "pause for the cause/...takin a break,payin' the bills, back at ____(CLUB) after these...."
*This way, u can cut back on the commercials, and still meet the bottom line.
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also:
i have observed:
CFNY, makes a big FREEEkin deal, about the Less, than 2minutes back to music,
(or on going history of music) THE Fanfare almost takes 2 minutes!! *BUT* they are
reeely slick, they only have that LINER ready, for specific hours of the DAY.....
during 'off peak' times, on CFNY, i believe i have heard commercial sets, exceed 2 minutes.....
hmmmm????
and what comes to mind, is the z103's live to aire,
at least in the late 90s/early 2000's....
during the broadcast, talent would back sell the music,
promote the club, and then hit a quick plug for energizer...
(big ID VOICE) would say, "live to aire, from ___________"
(sound efx),and about a :5 second spot,
"wedny's: its way delicious" / then, the first REAL COMMERCIAL.
so,
the club, got their spot.
the batteries, were included.
the club/again.
shameless self promotion,for the station,
a quick "zing" for the fast food place, and
then the "pause for the cause/...takin a break,payin' the bills, back at ____(CLUB) after these...."
*This way, u can cut back on the commercials, and still meet the bottom line.
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also:
i have observed:
CFNY, makes a big FREEEkin deal, about the Less, than 2minutes back to music,
(or on going history of music) THE Fanfare almost takes 2 minutes!! *BUT* they are
reeely slick, they only have that LINER ready, for specific hours of the DAY.....
during 'off peak' times, on CFNY, i believe i have heard commercial sets, exceed 2 minutes.....
hmmmm????
Radio_bored-Op said:
CFNY (Edge 102) and CILQ (Q107) are "brother stations", so, being the same company, and with Q107 being huge with the two minute idea for ads, it doesn't surprise me if Edge 102 is doing the same thing.
Element9 said:
Add to this the fact that over the last 30-odd years, local advertisers have come to expect :60 spots, even though a lot of the time there may not even be :30 worth of content in it. Repeating the phone number a half-dozen times does not count as "content", nor does padding it out with clichés (at our business the customer comes first, you're a name not a number, you don't pay more you just get more, etc.). It seems the only :30s are the agency spots for national accounts (granted, :30 of the Geico lizard is more than enough).
Who Ate the Bread Crumbs?
Hey, it takes time to come up with a plan to revolutionize the industry. Perhaps 'Set strayed so far outside the box that he lost his way back...
yugoidar said:
Hey, it takes time to come up with a plan to revolutionize the industry. Perhaps 'Set strayed so far outside the box that he lost his way back...
Hey Folks, i am still here. Just been running around. To go back to my original intention, radio NEEDS to become different on air. Unlike TV, we are not centered around shows, but we are centered around commercials. Our WHOLE programming philosophy is based on WHAT DO WE DO ABOUT COMMERCIALS? How do we place them so we won't lose listeners! It really should be the other way around. In a nutshell, reep you formats, but re-invent to way we package ourself!
I like the ideas here. The problem is risk. Radio stations are expensive, the stakes are high and it's a copy cat business. Many of the creative people, the really smart ones got out of radio a long time ago.
There is a poster around the boards who likes to shoot down any new idea. I don't think he comes to this board but he's always good at getting people riled up. He is probably a good example of how management thinks. Change doesn't come easy!
Long spotsets are a bore, I'd hate to be an advertiser with my spot 5th in a 7 spot set.
There is a poster around the boards who likes to shoot down any new idea. I don't think he comes to this board but he's always good at getting people riled up. He is probably a good example of how management thinks. Change doesn't come easy!
Long spotsets are a bore, I'd hate to be an advertiser with my spot 5th in a 7 spot set.
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