Columbus: Former and current progressive talk station in ratings tie

[SeanMGilbow]

There's something that's so exciting about a battle for last place.

The latest Arbitrends show WYTS in dead last by itself.

WVKO-AM is currently beating the Spanish-formatted WVKO-FM and Wilks' country station out of Circleville. It is tied with a Newark station.

 

[ponderosaAZ]

I'm an old Cowtown resident, and I'm glad that they have different political perspectives as opposed to all conservatives all the time. However, I think that getting a .5 is at best a moral victory, and moral victories are for losers. Get that station into the top fifteen, and
then you have done something. The only really liberal areas I recall are Whitehall and downtown, the inner city. Is there an upwardly
mobile base in any other part of town?

A 0.5 is nothing compared to Albuquerque at 3, Seattle 2, Denver 1.5, KGO/San Francisco 6, etc.

Even NOVA-M, syndicator of Randi Rhodes and Mike Malloy, hovers around a 0.5 on their flagstaff KPHX Phoenix. That is underperforming.

You have to freshen the lineup and get away from all agenda, all the time. Try the Midnight Truckers radio network, Bob Brinker, Handel on the Law, Ralph Snodsmith, Dr. Bob Martin, Roex, Moe Ansari, Kim Komando, Glenn Haege, Lou Dobbs, Dr. Joy Browne, Jeff Rense, Coast to Coast AM, and a conservative or two. You've got to have some lifestyle talk as well.

 

[ponderosaAZ]

[/quote]
If the station was entirely syndicated, with everything imported, why have a friggin' PD?
Must be a tough job.
[/quote]


What station is doing this? That's insane! Maybe the PD could do some production or sales work and in doing so, increase ratings and revenue!

 

[SeanMGilbow]

I'm an old Cowtown resident, and I'm glad that they have different political perspectives as opposed to all conservatives all the time. However, I think that getting a .5 is at best a moral victory, and moral victories are for losers. Get that station into the top fifteen, and
then you have done something. The only really liberal areas I recall are Whitehall and downtown, the inner city. Is there an upwardly
mobile base in any other part of town?

A 0.5 is nothing compared to Albuquerque at 3, Seattle 2, Denver 1.5, KGO/San Francisco 6, etc.

Even NOVA-M, syndicator of Randi Rhodes and Mike Malloy, hovers around a 0.5 on their flagstaff KPHX Phoenix. That is underperforming.

You have to freshen the lineup and get away from all agenda, all the time. Try the Midnight Truckers radio network, Bob Brinker, Handel on the Law, Ralph Snodsmith, Dr. Bob Martin, Roex, Moe Ansari, Kim Komando, Glenn Haege, Lou Dobbs, Dr. Joy Browne, Jeff Rense, Coast to Coast AM, and a conservative or two. You've got to have some lifestyle talk as well.

The latest Arbitrends have WVKO-AM at 0.7, actually. The numbers have been going up since the first book. And the station has only been on the air since December.

Also, you have no clue what listeners in Columbus want to hear. Some of the shows you "suggest" do air in Columbus, and none are performing that well.

 

[ajhenderson]

Many of the shows mentioned are also brokered. Yes, it may be a good idea for revenue, but not as a programming suggestion.

KGO is not technically a progresive talk station. Albuquerque suffered for some time until its recent bump back to pretty decent numbers. In Phoenix, KPHX has taken a bit of a dive in the last trend, while the Salem station went up to a number rarely seen by that many Salem stations (although, perhaps through more advertising, they are getting slightly better numbers nationally it seems).

You don't have to have some lifestyle talk. Stations like KFYI/Phoenix learned this. They still have a certain amount (largely because Kim Komando's husband still runs the place) but there's a lot fewer garden tips and a lot more "Obama sucks". When I drove across the country recently, I tuned in WLW, a favorite of mine, and tuned right out when I heard a Sunday morning sports show. This may increase cume, may be easily sellable, may offer a chance to groom a TV talent for taking over the weekday show in the future, etc., but for the core talk radio demographic, it's a bit out of place. Same with gardening and home improvement shows; boring as all get out, but easy to sell. If you're not the heritage talk station, people aren't going to listen to your home improvement show. So you might as well give them what they normally come for.

 

[willcail]

Well Midnight Truckers radio network is a conservitive talk show and it is on the low rated WYTS. Kim Kommando is on a low rated FM talker in C-Bus. Lou Dobbs is agenda radio. Coast to Coast is on WTVN

 

[gr8oldies]

You have to be aware that WLW's Sunday Sports Talk (as well as the evening version) habve been on WLW for decades.

 

[Biz Listener]

Many of the shows mentioned are also brokered. Yes, it may be a good idea for revenue, but not as a programming suggestion.

KGO is not technically a progresive talk station. Albuquerque suffered for some time until its recent bump back to pretty decent numbers. In Phoenix, KPHX has taken a bit of a dive in the last trend, while the Salem station went up to a number rarely seen by that many Salem stations (although, perhaps through more advertising, they are getting slightly better numbers nationally it seems).

You don't have to have some lifestyle talk. Stations like KFYI/Phoenix learned this. They still have a certain amount (largely because Kim Komando's husband still runs the place) but there's a lot fewer garden tips and a lot more "Obama sucks". When I drove across the country recently, I tuned in WLW, a favorite of mine, and tuned right out when I heard a Sunday morning sports show. This may increase cume, may be easily sellable, may offer a chance to groom a TV talent for taking over the weekday show in the future, etc., but for the core talk radio demographic, it's a bit out of place. Same with gardening and home improvement shows; boring as all get out, but easy to sell. If you're not the heritage talk station, people aren't going to listen to your home improvement show. So you might as well give them what they normally come for.

In principle, I'd agree with "give 'em what they want" programming. But, when you're talking about battery-powered AM stations with ratings below single digits, then revenue should probably be the #1 concern. If you can make more money getting someone who can sell spots to the gullible to run brokered shows than airing what your audience expects, take the money. When a station's ratings are below a single digit, it doesn't much matter what the ratings are. Forget looking for broadcasters. Look for the kind of people who can sell enough spots to fund their own little vanity shows.

After all, selling is a talent like any other. There are people who can talk people into buying all sorts of useless things. How do you think the companies that sell the mega-expensive vacuum cleaners stay in business, or any of the multi-level marketing scams? If you can find such a person and profit from his talents, consider yourself lucky.

 

[smedge2006]

If you can make more money getting someone who can sell spots to the gullible to run brokered shows than airing what your audience expects, take the money. When a station's ratings are below a single digit, it doesn't much matter what the ratings are.

It does when you want to get above a single digit. Stations that take the easy money don't do that -- they often as not end up sliding into more and more brokered, and ultimately an all-brokered format. That is a hole that is almost impossible to climb out of. WWBA in Tampa did it (getting rid of brokered talk on the weekdays), but it took five years and they still mostly sound like a latrine on the weekends.

There are people who can talk people into buying all sorts of useless things. How do you think the companies that sell the mega-expensive vacuum cleaners stay in business, or any of the multi-level marketing scams? If you can find such a person and profit from his talents, consider yourself lucky.

The number one reason why so many AMs are in single digits -- see above. You too can be a proud co-enabler of Kevin Trudeau and thousands of the FTC investigations of tomorrow.

 

[Biz Listener]

It does when you want to get above a single digit. Stations that take the easy money don't do that -- they often as not end up sliding into more and more brokered, and ultimately an all-brokered format. That is a hole that is almost impossible to climb out of. WWBA in Tampa did it (getting rid of brokered talk on the weekdays), but it took five years and they still mostly sound like a latrine on the weekends.

If you have deep enough pockets to make a run at that goal, more power to you.

The number one reason why so many AMs are in single digits -- see above. You too can be a proud co-enabler of Kevin Trudeau and thousands of the FTC investigations of tomorrow.

No, that's the #3 reason. The #1 reason why most AM's are in single digits is that the sound quality on AM sucks. Music format radio on AM sounds like listening to an old wind-up Victrola. It's not just that the inherent sound of AM is the pits, it's also that there just aren't many good AM receivers out there on desks and in dashboards. The #2 reason is that most of of the single-digit AM's are the low-powered, daytime only stations that half of the year can't be heard during most of AM or PM drive time. If you're stuck with a 1,000 watt daytime, 4 watt nighttime station, you have to settle for making the most of what little you've got.

Owning a small, AM daytime station is a lot like owning a single-color, sheet-fed printing press. Once upon a time you could have used such a press to be a publisher of some importance. Today, you'd have trouble surviving printing flyers to put on car windshields.

I'm sorry, but times change. AM is right up there with black & white TV, Super 8 home movies. and vinyl phonograph records.

 

[ajhenderson]

I agree with you, Biz Listener. Yes, the Sunday morning sports show has been on WLW forever. The fact that WLW has been around forever, along with the signal and the fact that heritage has significance in the midwest, is largely why it continues to do well. They're making plenty of money there, so they are an exception. Also an exception are the weekend how-to shows on WTAM, WLW, etc., where the large sales staff can sell big numbers for that specific weekend daypart to advertisers.

There almost has to be some brokered for class B, C, and D single AMs. I've tried to keep the stuff brought to WVKO of a decent quality and relevance to the listener. These stations have never had listeners - when was the last time you saw 1580 show up with any number? Stations like this have run a million formats and none of them ever stick. Wonder why. At least a talk format allows for a seamless transition into some brokered programming that can make some money, because moving spots in the street when you're the station closest to the glove compartment, have under a 1.0, have no advertising other than word of mouth, and have a mediocre signal (1580's didn't sound too bad when I was there, though), you're going to have a real hard time selling spots. I've run stations like this. They go all-brokered because largely they have to. A number of small AM owners are delusional, egomaniacs; don't you think they'd rather have a lot of listeners and sell spots than broker time and have no one listening? (Some do the latter and still claim they have gazillions of listeners) The good news for the content Nazis is that there are soooo many AMs than ever before, plus the entire FM band, that no one was ever listening to these obscure stations 20 years ago because they weren't even CPs then.

As to Kevin Trudeau, there's no denying the guy is a marketing genius. But none of his recent stuff has been on the radio, and we haven't had any incidents of large significance since Seasilver, which a number of stations including Salem pulled before they had to.

 

[smedge2006]

As to Kevin Trudeau, there's no denying the guy is a marketing genius. But none of his recent stuff has been on the radio, and we haven't had any incidents of large significance since Seasilver, which a number of stations including Salem pulled before they had to.

I just heard a spot for the Natural Cures "They"... book. I hear a lot of claims on AM infomercials that sound suspiciously similar to ones that got other companies in trouble with the FTC a few years back. They just reorganize under different names and pull the same scams over and over, pay the fines and walk away. CODB. Won't stop until they start walking the station employees to the squad car in handcuffs, alongside the nutritional supplement radio recidivists.

Even the most obscure AM stations in most places were already operating by 1990. In fact, there are about five percent fewer AMs now than there were then. Building new AM sites virtually ceased at the end of the 80's because of land prices, drawn-out local approval processes, and the competition for tower builders with cellullar carriers and other technologies. Since then, it's been mostly existing stations upping their facilities, and occasionally taking a small AM dark someplace to do it. Would that it happened more often.

I think most owners of small AM's would rather be sipping margaritas in the Bahamas, but they waited too long to sell out. They have a passion all right, not for programming, but for scraping by.

There almost has to be some brokered for class B, C, and D single AMs. I've tried to keep the stuff brought to WVKO of a decent quality and relevance to the listener. These stations have never had listeners - when was the last time you saw 1580 show up with any number? Stations like this have run a million formats and none of them ever stick. Wonder why.

Maybe because so little has been invested in programming in say, the past 30 years. (WVKO was Columbus' heritage black station in the 1960's and 1970's.) If 1580 had a 5 or a 10 share, do you think advertisers would ignore it because it's a "Class D AM"? The one thing I admittedly don't understand about radio station economics -- buyers spend $40 mil (to pull a figure out of a hat) for a signal and then cut programming to the bone. If you bought a second-tier signal and spent the $40 mil on programming and promotions that get listeners, don't you then have something more valuable to advertisers than the stick that's being milked as a cash cow? Yes, the stick is capital, but its value is dropping every day. VKO is already doing better than its most recent incarnations -- but its operators need to have enough cash on hand to see them through a rough patch without these breakdowns in technology and format that threaten to strangle it in the crib.

At least a talk format allows for a seamless transition into some brokered programming that can make some money,

There is no such thing as a seamless transition into brokered programming. Much of it's half an hour long, perfect for preacher stations but death for talk radio where shows get cut off in the middle of an hour. Local shows structured like talk radio stick out because of amateurish "talent" and production values. Many of these small stations' microphones get their only workout when the Saturday morning brokered show is on... and the first few minutes are often accompanied by squeals and squawks as the under-programmed stations try to figure out how to break away from the bird and actually get hosts and callers on the air.

 

[Biz Listener]

Maybe because so little has been invested in programming in say, the past 30 years. (WVKO was Columbus' heritage black station in the 1960's and 1970's.) If 1580 had a 5 or a 10 share, do you think advertisers would ignore it because it's a "Class D AM"?

Yeah, three decades sounds about right for how long AM has been descending into total irrelvancy. As for advertisers caring if 1580 had a 5 or 10 share, why not speculate about them getting a 50 or 60 share? When you talk about imaginary numbers that will never, even happen, why limit yourself? If you're going to engage in flights of fantasy, you might as well go all out.

 

[ajhenderson]

Can't disagree with everything smedge says, but Biz Listener is right again. No one is going to be led out in handcuffs for selling vitamins. Vioxx allegedly killed tens of thousands of people and that was a civil suit.

1580 may have been a big deal in the past when no one lived in Delaware or Newark. Kind of like stations in Cleveland that did better back when Avon had more cows than people.

 

[SeanMGilbow]

Can't disagree with everything smedge says, but Biz Listener is right again. No one is going to be led out in handcuffs for selling vitamins. Vioxx allegedly killed tens of thousands of people and that was a civil suit.

1580 may have been a big deal in the past when no one lived in Delaware or Newark. Kind of like stations in Cleveland that did better back when Avon had more cows than people.

One difference, however. The Arbitrends are indicating listener growth. And when the station first appeared in the Arbitron book, it wasn't listed in the two previous Arbitrend periods at all. The station has only been on the air seven months. And the loyal listeners are becoming aware this is a revenue generator.

But the liberals showing displeasure with the informercials and the neocons upset over the station's growth despite the circumstances cited in previous postings are getting the idea there is a core group of us (large in number) determined this format will not go away again.

 

[jaymarvin]

It's not that Columbus doesn't matter. That's a stupid argument. Nor is about the battle for last place. It's the matter that the progressive format has problems.

1) small stations with bad signals

2) Bad air talent. AAR has been awful since day one. The rouble with this is people will look at the progressive format, and think it won't work.When it could if it were done right.

3) No promotion. Many of these stations--including mine--have very high TSL low on cume. No cume no numbers.

I've struggled in this format for three years plus. Many of the big signals, that carry right-wing talk, you could run a test tone and get a three share. Fix the above things and the format might have a chance. But as long as the people involved keep lying to themselves about the format nothing will change.

 

[Biz Listener]

But as long as the people involved keep lying to themselves about the format nothing will change.

As long as people keep lying to themselves about anything, it will never change.

There's an important corollary to that. As long as people only gauge truth or accuracy by credentials, they'll continue to fool themselves into believing inaccuracies and lies. Whether it is spoken over the air or typed on the internet, the discerning person uses the "does it make sense" filter before using anything else to evaluate an opinion or statement. People who'll accept the most ludicrous and outrageous statements if they come from a source they think is authoritative, and who'll reject the most reasonable and sensible statements if they don't know the credentials of who is making the statement are the ones most at risk of being victims of self-delusion.

 

[SeanMGilbow]

But as long as the people involved keep lying to themselves about the format nothing will change.

As long as people keep lying to themselves about anything, it will never change.

There's an important corollary to that. As long as people only gauge truth or accuracy by credentials, they'll continue to fool themselves into believing inaccuracies and lies. Whether it is spoken over the air or typed on the internet, the discerning person uses the "does it make sense" filter before using anything else to evaluate an opinion or statement. People who'll accept the most ludicrous and outrageous statements if they come from a source they think is authoritative, and who'll reject the most reasonable and sensible statements if they don't know the credentials of who is making the statement are the ones most at risk of being victims of self-delusion.

This can be applied to both sides of the fence.

Having said that...

Since WVKO-AM went on the air last December, the focus has never been on the hosts of Air America.

Stephanie Miller has been the station's biggest draw.  Getting her back on the air in Columbus was the primary goal of the Ohio Majority Radio group when it worked with WVKO to get the format back on the air.

Ed Schultz, whom Jay Marvin has substituted for in the past, has by far the most listeners of all progressive talkers.  His guests and his topics appeal to both listeners in Columbus and the surrounding rural counties.

Both Steph and Big Eddie know how to draw both liberal and conservative listeners.  Like Jay Marvin, they've done talk a long time.  And they have previous backgrounds that enhance their entertainment value--Steph as a stand-up comic and Ed as a sports broadcaster.

Of the Air America talkers that air on the station:

--Only half of Ron Kuby's show airs.  A local talk show, "What's What with Mike Cole," airs instead during hour number three.
--Rachel Maddow is pre-empted almost every evening by Columbus Clippers baseball.
--Thom Hartmann, airing on delay in the evening, is also pre-empted by Columbus Clippers baseball.
--John Elliot is heard on delay in the wee hours of the morning following Mike Malloy.
--Weekend programming from Air America makes up only half the schedule, if that much, if one takes into account local talks shows on Saturday, gospel music on Sunday morning and, of course, Columbus Clippers baseball.

The same Air America programming on evenings and weekends prior to baseball season was pre-empted often by high school sports.  In a very short period of time, WVKO became the high school sports broadcast leader in the Columbus market.

With all the pre-emptions to progressive talk programming (which, by the way, is not pre-empted online) and all the transmission problems in the first six months, that did not stop listeners from heading to the station.

Since this post started with the Winter ratings showing WVKO tied with Clear Channel's former progressive station WYTS, the two latest Arbitrends show listener growth for WVKO.  Keep in mind WVKO did not show in either winter Arbitrend rankings, but WVKO showed a ten percent increase in listeners with each of the last two Arbitrends.  It is now on the heels of surpassing Salem daytime religious talker WRFD and locally owned FM talker WTDA.

And the listeners have come to realize two things:

1.  Idealogues don't pay the bills; entertainment does.  In other words, fart jokes beat long diatribes anyday.
2.  Maintaining the format in the long term requires paying the bills in the short term.  And the listeners know what pays the bills.

These listeners want the fart jokes to keep coming.

 

[Biz Listener]

And yes, Dale, a 0.5 is not something to normally cheer, but it is a small victory under the aforementioned circumstances.

A 0.5 indicates that out of every 200 people listening to the radio, 199 of them don't choose to listen to your station. That's not much to brag about under any circumstances.

 

[OhioMediaWatch]

1580 may have been a big deal in the past when no one lived in Delaware or Newark. Kind of like stations in Cleveland that did better back when Avon had more cows than people.

Your message reminded me of a line I saw in the bio of "Price is Right" announcer Rich Fields. He was born in "rural Avon", or so the bio said!

Avon now has more shopping centers than cows.

As for 'VKO...well, I did pop into their webstream the other day, and it sounds (signal/audio quality wise) a LOT better. Did they finally figure out that using an unequalized phone line as an STL didn't sound good? I don't think they have the satellite dish up yet...I think I heard brief clips of announcements for Chicago progressive talker WCPT/820...

And yes, such things happen to conservatalkers, too...one of our local ones had to use a phone line for an STL for about a week.