Commercial programming on non-commercial stations and vice-versa

[tomservo]

A couple of related questions for the experts: are there any examples out there of commercial programming being heard (legally or otherwise) on non-commercial stations? And, are there any cases where non-commercial or public radio (NPR/APM, etc.) programs have found their way onto commercial stations?

I've always wondered if a commercial station could use a public radio program to "fill out" its public service interests in some way. Or maybe just to bring an in-demand public program to an area underserved by NPR.

On the opposite end of the scale, in a very rural part of Alabama, we have a station (WQLS 90.5, Camden) that regularly airs full-blown commercials in violation of the noncomm rules. A friend in the area just e-mailed me to say they've actually picked up Michael Baisden's morning show, which is a commercial production. I can't fathom them putting out a version sans commercials for public stations, so I think something fishy is going on. I was hoping someone here might could explain how this could work, or if it's straight-up breaking the rules.

 

[FLjack2]

Many years ago, my collage station ran ABC News. We just did not play the commercials. ABC was fine with it. We were only 700 watts and didn't quite make it into Philadelphia. Plus, no one else was clearing their content.

Another question. Think Public Broadcasters should sell "commercials" in their streams? It could be a nice way to make a little more money. They could sell the single sponsorship tag for the over-the-air signal and, for an additional amount, the client would get a real "commercial" in the stream when the program takes a break.

 

[uncamark]

A couple of related questions for the experts: are there any examples out there of commercial programming being heard (legally or otherwise) on non-commercial stations? And, are there any cases where non-commercial or public radio (NPR/APM, etc.) programs have found their way onto commercial stations?

In Chicago, prog talker WCPT airs Michael Feldman on Sundays (they tried airing it live on Saturday morning, but there were problems trying to insert ads, since Feldman doesn't give his stations internal breaks). For a while as a brokered station, they'd air "World Cafe" as a time-filler. And the dwindling number of commercial classical music stations do air public radio classical (and other) music programs on their schedule.

As far as I know, commercial programming can be sold to non-coms, as long as the ads are covered by PSAs or other material. (The national sponsors could be taken care of by an underwriting announcement.)

 

[TheBigA]

The FCC really tries to stay out of programming decisions, and AFAIK, there really isn't any distinction made between commercial or non-commercial programming. A lot of PBS stations carry old Lawrence Welk shows and similar former commercial programs as feature shows. Obviously they run a lot shorter once you remove the breaks. The rules relate to the commercials themselves.

The one issue that might come into play for NPR programs on commercial stations has to do with NPR's non-profit status, and where the funding comes from. I know when NPR set up NPR Enterprises in the 80s, which did business with commercial operations, it was set up as a distinct business entity from the non-profit company. But that was more for tax reasons, not FCC regulations.

 

[w9wi]

At one time commercial WRLT-FM Nashville aired Mountain Stage, a folk show heard elsewhere on public radio.

 

[aaronread]

Generally speaking, commercial radio stations cannot air NPR-produced programming; there's a clause in NPR affiliate contracts that requires stations that air the shows to operate in a non-commercial manner. I imagine it's possible that exceptions have been made, though I am unaware of any. However, PRI and APM do not have such restrictions, AFAIK.

Worth noting: NPR does *not* have market exclusivity in their show contracts, whereas PRI and (I think) APM *do*. So if a public radio outlet has first rights to a PRI show, like Whad'ya Know for example, then it can be difficult for anyone else...commercial or not...to air it. I think there's a three-tiered system, though...I don't remember the specifics.

FWIW, I know KTMS 990AM, a commercial talker in Santa Barbara, runs a lot of the BBC World Service. I don't know if that'll continue next week when APM takes over distribution rights in the USA from PRI, though.

Most non-commercial radio stations are pretty good about not airing illegal commercial material. I know of some examples that are breaking the law; some that have been busted, others that haven't (yet). FWIW, allegedly there are a lot of PBS affiliates on the TV side that have stretched the concept of "non-commercial" quite a lot in the last 20 years; quite literally airing the same spots that one sees on commercial stations. Unlike the radio side, it's something most of the system (from consumers to regulators) seems content to wink and nod at. (shrugs) In radio, stations tend to get nailed more frequently.

 

[w9wi]

I don't *think* Mountain Stage was a NPR-distributed program when WRLT aired it. (I think WV Public Radio may have been distributing it themselves -- looks like it's only been distributed by NPR since 2008)

Just watched two breaks on our (commercial) TV station -- I'm an engineer, not a lawyer, but I think I saw two spots that would have been legal to air on non-commercial stations.

(Many of the rest had brief (1-2 seconds) calls to action.)

 

[techie2]

WSWO-LP (LPFM, therefore NCE) runs a couple of syndicated oldies related shows that are targeted mainly to commercial stations. The program providers have been kind enough to provide separate non-commercial edits of the shows.

 

[aaronread]

Mountain Stage used to be distributed by PRI, I think. And yeah, it was 2008 or 2009 when NPR outbid PRI for the rights for distribution.

 

[tomservo]

Thanks for all of the replies. I had no idea that this sort of thing was so common. In the case of the station I was wondering about, apparently they're playing music during the local spot breaks of the syndicated morning show but they *are* airing the national commercials. They also are allegedly airing commercials instead of underwritings during local programming, but that's another kettle of fish.

 

[wrsg915fm]

Echoing what techie2 said, our high school station has been provided NCE-friendly versions of a growing number of syndicated shows.

 

[aaronread]

I know a handful of non-comm stations that air network feeds of professional sports games, too. Every station I've asked about the practice says it's a real pain in the ass and it requires a live board operator who listens closely and yanks off the network feed whenever they do a commercial break AND when they sneak in live-reads during the play by play. I'm sure it doesn't sound all that great as a result, either.

Of course it's relatively uncommon because most of the top-level pro sports games' broadcast agreements require the stations to air the pre- and post-game shows as well, which are wall-to-wall commercials. The minor leagues tend to be more willing to let that slide, but the minor league broadcast setups also tend to be more stripped-down affairs with no network cue tones or anything like that. I know at least one AAA baseball affiliate that just has their radio affiliates rebroadcast a 32kbps windows media audio webcast. :

 

[techie2]

I know a handful of non-comm stations that air network feeds of professional sports games, too. Every station I've asked about the practice says it's a real pain in the ass and it requires a live board operator who listens closely and yanks off the network feed whenever they do a commercial break AND when they sneak in live-reads during the play by play. I'm sure it doesn't sound all that great as a result, either.

Of course it's relatively uncommon because most of the top-level pro sports games' broadcast agreements require the stations to air the pre- and post-game shows as well, which are wall-to-wall commercials. The minor leagues tend to be more willing to let that slide, but the minor league broadcast setups also tend to be more stripped-down affairs with no network cue tones or anything like that. I know at least one AAA baseball affiliate that just has their radio affiliates rebroadcast a 32kbps windows media audio webcast. :

The OHSAA has been sending out a 48kbps WMA feed of their state high school championships for the past 2 years. The same issues applied to carrying that on LPFM, blanking the breaks would have been easy (just follow the format sheet) but live reads would have had to be removed as well. It was decided that was a bad idea and instead a link to their public feed was placed on the station website for anyone interested.

 

[88.9 Miracle]

We've been trying to find a good syndicated morning show and afternoon drive for our Classic Rock station. The problem is the bartering of the spots, which we can not air. When will the networks start considering, instead of audio spots, banner ads and perhaps full blown spots injected into the web stream? Anyone know of any good networks that offer this sort of thing?

 

[kc1ih]

e-town airs on some commercial stations.

 

[aaronread]

We've been trying to find a good syndicated morning show and afternoon drive for our Classic Rock station. The problem is the bartering of the spots, which we can not air.

The only non-commercial nationally-syndicated morning shows I know of are Morning Edition, The Takeaway, and various religious feeds. None are classic-rock themed AFAIK. I know WXPN produces Xponential, a World-Cafe-ish TripleA music feed but it's license-limited to HD2 channels only, you can't air it on analog stations (they get a deal on satellite distribution that way).

Note: I'm a public radio junkie, so it's quite possible...likely, even...that there's other stuff out there that's non-commercial and will fit your needs.

 

[amfmxm]

With few exceptions, most commercial radio network programming is barter, so the notion of paying cash for radio shows is a foreign concept to the vast majority of commercial operators.

FWIW, I think that NPR, PRI et al should be able to shop the commercial marketplace for carriage if local public stations opt not to carry a particular program--and the commercial station purchasing the show should be able to sell spots and/or sponsorships as with any other show--even creating breaks where there weren't any in its non-comm form.

With all due respect, there is nothing sacred about "Morning Edition" or "Prairie Home Companion." Sure, it's great content. But that's all it is: content.

It's just radio.

 

[TheBigA]

FWIW, I think that NPR, PRI et al should be able to shop the commercial marketplace for carriage if local public stations opt not to carry a particular program--

The catch comes in using government funding for a non-profit that then gets sold in the for-profit world. Consult your lawyer first.

As I said, when NPR created NPR Plus, which included their hourly newscasts, they were part of a separate taxable company.

 

[PTBoardOp94]

Launching soon (although I've not heard a firm date) is another non-commercial AAA service from PubMusic.

This is the same group behind the Pittsburgh Jazz Channel that launched last August (after WDUQ went away from jazz), and the 24/7 PubJazz format that launched very recently.

http://www.pubradio.net/

 

[Ai4i]

Thoughts:
Most classical music stations, commercial and non, air the Sunday Metropolitan Opera broadcasts. I don't remember who owns that one.
Plenty of Christian non-coms carry IRN-USA Radio News with different breaks than commercial stations.

A lot of PBS stations carry old Lawrence Welk shows and similar former commercial programs as feature shows.

I don't know if a time limit is involved or just compensation, but I believe old commercials are not considered commercials, especially if the sponsor or product no longer exists.
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