• Get involved.
    We want your input!
    Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.

    After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
    If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.

    After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
    https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/

    Thanks in advance and have fun!
    RadioDiscussions Administrators

Comong Clean About 'JMK...

U

uncamark

In the understandably-angry posts that have been made regarding the flip of 'JMK to Jack, I have been flaming back. I felt that I owed a reasoned explanation of why I was doing what I was doing. It's simple.

I'm an oldies nut and a radio nut. And I never cared for 'JMK in the *first place.* Any enjoyment I ever had from the station was purely the result of the personalities that worked there, in some cases for way too short a time.

Now I realize that oldies stations have to program to the mass audience that only wants to hear their favorite song(s). And I also realize that 'JMK said from the start that they would only play the "killer oldies." But to me, I shouldn't hear a song within during a 24-hour period on an oldies station. I heard that way too much on 'JMK for years and years.

And to add to all that the lame jingles (except for the Tony Griffin jingles in the last year and the ID from the time they were sharing a package with 'JJD), the either underwhelming or overwhelming production (for the last several years, it came off as the production guy showing off his Pro Tools--and I'm so over movie and TV clips used out of context), those stupid jock beds that came in and out in the last several years, the annoying Brown Bag Lunch (and Greg Brown is otherwise a guy I respect a lot) and I just couldn't bring myself to ever like the station--and I wanted to.

And Biondi. All I will say right now is that he started in morning drive and got moved to evenings within months. There's a reason.

The last good oldies station we had in this town was 'FYR in the late 80s before RKO's forced sale and the flip back to soft AC. Their playlist may have been as limited as 'JMK in retrospect (because it was 60s and 70s instead of 'JMK's 50s and 60s), but there was an undeniable energy to the station that 'JMK never had, especially with Smokin' Joe Dawson in the evening wiping Biondi all over the floor. They may've had only three jingles, but they all kicked. And Mike McDonald and Paula Fagen (is she Cooper now?--it sounds like her) were one of the few listenable morning teams ever, with the bonus of the inimitable Red Mottlow (and what a great traffic bed).

And that's why I just didn't get worked up about 'JMK's passing. I understand where you all are coming from, but for now I'm still fascinated with Jack. Do I like all of what I'm hearing? No, but it sure beats that Temptations song for the umpteenth time coming out of a lame jingle.

At least that's my opinion. Now if Jack will get some live jocks with attitude and start using those TM "You Campaign" jingles again like they did the first wekeend...
 
About 'JMK...

Well said. I sort of get the CBS-FM in NYC thing- they were a legendary and trend-setting radio station.

WJMK never was. In an ideal world, somebody smarter than all of us would have the stones to put Oldies back on NOW in both markets.


> In the understandably-angry posts that have been made
> regarding the flip of 'JMK to Jack, I have been flaming
> back. I felt that I owed a reasoned explanation of why I
> was doing what I was doing. It's simple.
>
> I'm an oldies nut and a radio nut. And I never cared for
> 'JMK in the *first place.* Any enjoyment I ever had from
> the station was purely the result of the personalities that
> worked there, in some cases for way too short a time.
>
> Now I realize that oldies stations have to program to the
> mass audience that only wants to hear their favorite
> song(s). And I also realize that 'JMK said from the start
> that they would only play the "killer oldies." But to me, I
> shouldn't hear a song within during a 24-hour period on an
> oldies station. I heard that way too much on 'JMK for years
> and years.
>
> And to add to all that the lame jingles (except for the Tony
> Griffin jingles in the last year and the ID from the time
> they were sharing a package with 'JJD), the either
> underwhelming or overwhelming production (for the last
> several years, it came off as the production guy showing off
> his Pro Tools--and I'm so over movie and TV clips used out
> of context), those stupid jock beds that came in and out in
> the last several years, the annoying Brown Bag Lunch (and
> Greg Brown is otherwise a guy I respect a lot) and I just
> couldn't bring myself to ever like the station--and I wanted
> to.

> And that's why I just didn't get worked up about 'JMK's
> passing. I understand where you all are coming from, but
> for now I'm still fascinated with Jack. Do I like all of
> what I'm hearing? No, but it sure beats that Temptations
> song for the umpteenth time coming out of a lame jingle.
>
> At least that's my opinion. Now if Jack will get some live
> jocks with attitude and start using those TM "You Campaign"
> jingles again like they did the first wekeend...
>
 
Re: About 'JMK...

Some people who've ripped those of us who've panned Jack are missing the point. You seem to think we're lamenting the passing of Oldies, and pass us off with a "get over it."

If that were what the criticisms were about (at least beyond a week or two after the fact), you'd have a point. But I don't care about Oldies. I agree with you that WJMK was beyond stale.

But what about Jack? All I see Jack's supporters doing is ripping the people who criticize it. I don't see substantive discussion of Jack's positive points, at least not much. Only that it's not oldies--faint praise, indeed. Infinity may get some points for having the guts to take a risk, but don't call it imaginative. It's an iPod, and it's somebody else's iPod. That's imitation, not originality. But then, that's radio, isn't it?

I'll grant you that Jack doesn't abide by the conventional wisdom of ignoring the competition, like the liner I heard today saying, "We have a four-letter word for Eric and Kathy on the Mix: dork." But I'm not sure I understand the psychology of it. Can somebody explain why "bad attitude" is supposed to increase revenue?
 
> But to me, I
> shouldn't hear a song within during a 24-hour period on an
> oldies station. I heard that way too much on 'JMK for years
> and years.
>


I hate when oldies stations play oldies. That dead air is much more effective.
 
Re: About 'JMK...

Haven't you figured it out yet? It's attitude. They think this "attitude" is what their target demo likes and wants. Why even waste another moment discussing this insane concept known as Jack?

I seem to remeber the same type of "all important" discussion about Johnny Kemp's future too.


> Some people who've ripped those of us who've panned Jack are
> missing the point. You seem to think we're lamenting the
> passing of Oldies, and pass us off with a "get over it."
>
> If that were what the criticisms were about (at least beyond
> a week or two after the fact), you'd have a point. But I
> don't care about Oldies. I agree with you that WJMK was
> beyond stale.
>
> But what about Jack? All I see Jack's supporters doing is
> ripping the people who criticize it. I don't see substantive
> discussion of Jack's positive points, at least not much.
> Only that it's not oldies--faint praise, indeed. Infinity
> may get some points for having the guts to take a risk, but
> don't call it imaginative. It's an iPod, and it's somebody
> else's iPod. That's imitation, not originality. But then,
> that's radio, isn't it?
>
> I'll grant you that Jack doesn't abide by the conventional
> wisdom of ignoring the competition, like the liner I heard
> today saying, "We have a four-letter word for Eric and Kathy
> on the Mix: dork." But I'm not sure I understand the
> psychology of it. Can somebody explain why "bad attitude" is
> supposed to increase revenue?
>
 
Re: About 'JMK...

> Haven't you figured it out yet? It's attitude. They think
> this "attitude" is what their target demo likes and wants.
> Why even waste another moment discussing this insane concept
> known as Jack?

That much is obvious. I know it's attitude and that they think it's what their target demo wants. But why? Why is this attractive? Psychographics, please.

Also, I must admit I've been wondering your opinion about Jack now that it's been on for a month. You had posted about it briefly in the beginning, but nowhere near the volume of your posts about that vaguely similar concept, Nine. Any comparative comments?
 
About 'JMK...

Why? So they stand out, are different from the rest of the crowd- a bit of an 'edge' to get attention. There's no "psychographic" study-- Scott Shannon's "Pirate Radio" in LA was similar- had they ever listened to Scott about how to evolve that station, it would have been a major hit.

They could take the same old-same old approach every other station takes and just blend into the crowd. The fact they've generated so much talk on these boards is proof.

Whether it will translate into ratings is yet to be seen. Caution should be advised should their first couple of trends be great or lousy- this isn't a 90 day format. Check things out in a year or so before we start discussing success or failure.


>
> That much is obvious. I know it's attitude and that they
> think it's what their target demo wants. But why? Why is
> this attractive? Psychographics, please.
>
> Also, I must admit I've been wondering your opinion about
> Jack now that it's been on for a month. You had posted about
> it briefly in the beginning, but nowhere near the volume of
> your posts about that vaguely similar concept, Nine. Any
> comparative comments?
>
 
Re: About 'JMK...

I don't comment much about them anymore because they're non events. They're not worth of discussion because they're ridiculous.

> > Haven't you figured it out yet? It's attitude. They think
> > this "attitude" is what their target demo likes and wants.
>
> > Why even waste another moment discussing this insane
> concept
> > known as Jack?
>
> That much is obvious. I know it's attitude and that they
> think it's what their target demo wants. But why? Why is
> this attractive? Psychographics, please.
>
> Also, I must admit I've been wondering your opinion about
> Jack now that it's been on for a month. You had posted about
> it briefly in the beginning, but nowhere near the volume of
> your posts about that vaguely similar concept, Nine. Any
> comparative comments?
>
 
Re: About 'JMK...

And this is where I'll part ways with most people. I have a pretty good track record and I put it on the line here.

I believe it's an incredibly stupid concept. It's a waste of time and money. It will not amount to more than what it replaced. See my stances on Love FM, Kiss FM and others.

I love when people say "this is a long term thing". BS. That is what's used when the move backfires. I can't tell you how many stations have leaned on that excuse to justify the failure of their "new" format FIVE years into the "new" format.

A station playing TV themes would get attention too. Being different doesn't add up to success. There is a point when it becomes absurd. Sure, it's a judgement call and in my judgement, NINE, Jack, Fred, whatever is ABSURD. It is the same approach all other stations that flip to WRONG format are doing. They're ringing up LESS and spinning it as "this isn't a 90 day format".

Scott Peterson generated alot of talk WORLDWIDE, so what. Just because a few of us talk about it here doesn't mean it's a successful concept.

In a year Jack will be jacked off in more markets than it's on and radio will continue to jerk itself off.
 
WJMK

No, that's what's used vs. having knee-jerk reactions when a new format doesn't change a station's fortunes overnight. Jocks and Programmers ask for patience when putting new stations on (give it time for word to spread, for the marketing to work, give listeners a fair chance to try it), but if it's a concept somebody (you) don't like, the "long term move" thought is discounted.

(BTW- the L.A. numbers came out today and KCBS-FM ("JACK") almost doubled 12+ and 25-54 adults they're #4. NUMBER FOUR RANK).

But as I've so often said: get back to me in a year before we come to any substantive conclusions on the Variety Hits format.

Until then- chill and give them the shot they deserve (your blanket shoot-down of them notwithstanding).
>
> I love when people say "this is a long term thing". BS. That
> is what's used when the move backfires. I can't tell you how
> many stations have leaned on that excuse to justify the
> failure of their "new" format FIVE years into the "new"
> format.
>
> A station playing TV themes would get attention too. Being
> different doesn't add up to success. There is a point when
> it becomes absurd. Sure, it's a judgement call and in my
> judgement, NINE, Jack, Fred, whatever is ABSURD. It is the
> same approach all other stations that flip to WRONG format
> are doing. They're ringing up LESS and spinning it as "this
> isn't a 90 day format".
>
> Scott Peterson generated alot of talk WORLDWIDE, so what.
> Just because a few of us talk about it here doesn't mean
> it's a successful concept.
>
> In a year Jack will be jacked off in more markets than it's
> on and radio will continue to jerk itself off.
>
 
Re: About 'JMK...

> Also, I must admit I've been wondering your opinion about
> Jack now that it's been on for a month. You had posted about
> it briefly in the beginning, but nowhere near the volume of
> your posts about that vaguely similar concept, Nine. Any
> comparative comments?
>

Well with the new ratings out today, and our limited ability to post them here, they did drop back (JMK)12+ to the Fall 04 numbers after a very slight bump in the winter 05 book.

WRLL is at it's lowest book I have seen in 5 books so far 12+. The old JMK listeners didn't convert at least not yet. We'll see late Aug what happens next.
 
Re: About 'JMK...

> And this is where I'll part ways with most people. I have a
> pretty good track record and I put it on the line here.

I am amazed that anyone would put anything on the line, even a round of beers, over a format that has been on in Chicago for about 20 rated days of the book that came out today.
>
> I believe it's an incredibly stupid concept. It's a waste of
> time and money. It will not amount to more than what it
> replaced. See my stances on Love FM, Kiss FM and others.

Let´s look where the concept is mature. Canada is not particularly relevant, as it does not have the ethnicity of a Chicago, NY or LA even in Toronto. So, go to LA. The format is a book old. It is tops in 25-54 except for Spanish stations. #1 in the key sales demo after 90 days. Quite amazing, considering the degree of competiton in the market.

Jack in LA replaced a classic rock variant. They have nearly doubled the numbers. They have also outdone the oldies station by about 50% in 25-54.

In NY, Jack in June had the same 25-54 share that CBS-FM had in the final month of Winter... a pure phase-to-phase comparison. So, with 20 days on the air, Jack in NY is already doing about as well as the oldies format did on its low side... an amazing performance for a new format.
>
> I love when people say "this is a long term thing". BS. That
> is what's used when the move backfires.

No, it is what people wo do not "lay it on the line" after 3 weeks of reatings might say. Any 25+ format needs time to develop and to define itself. The Jacks almost always have an intial period of "oh wow" music sampling, followed by building out air talent, promotions, etc. We are in the beginning of the first phase of the station.

By the way, each Jack is different, with locally researched music.

I don't think we will know the sustaining level of this till Fall 2005 or Winter 2006.
 
Re: About 'JMK...

To avoid another long and boring discussion here. I'll just leave it at what I said about the majority of the format changes in the last year [correct] as well as what I believe will happen in the following [ to be correct ].

I know my business David, you think you know yours. That's cool. I just make the call before it happens. You wait for things to materialize when there's others like me who already know. It's less expensive and our clients like it that way.

BTW. I didn't even mention Jack here David, you read research all day long, read what things SAY not what you wish to interpret them as. While there's no way to determine Jack's success/failure due to the short period of time they've had so far. I'll just go on what I know and watch the yo-yo effect take place.

Thanks


> > And this is where I'll part ways with most people. I have
> a
> > pretty good track record and I put it on the line here.
>
> I am amazed that anyone would put anything on the line, even
> a round of beers, over a format that has been on in Chicago
> for about 20 rated days of the book that came out today.
> >
> > I believe it's an incredibly stupid concept. It's a waste
> of
> > time and money. It will not amount to more than what it
> > replaced. See my stances on Love FM, Kiss FM and others.
>
> Let´s look where the concept is mature. Canada is not
> particularly relevant, as it does not have the ethnicity of
> a Chicago, NY or LA even in Toronto. So, go to LA. The
> format is a book old. It is tops in 25-54 except for Spanish
> stations. #1 in the key sales demo after 90 days. Quite
> amazing, considering the degree of competiton in the market.
>
>
> Jack in LA replaced a classic rock variant. They have nearly
> doubled the numbers. They have also outdone the oldies
> station by about 50% in 25-54.
>
> In NY, Jack in June had the same 25-54 share that CBS-FM had
> in the final month of Winter... a pure phase-to-phase
> comparison. So, with 20 days on the air, Jack in NY is
> already doing about as well as the oldies format did on its
> low side... an amazing performance for a new format.
> >
> > I love when people say "this is a long term thing". BS.
> That
> > is what's used when the move backfires.
>
> No, it is what people wo do not "lay it on the line" after 3
> weeks of reatings might say. Any 25+ format needs time to
> develop and to define itself. The Jacks almost always have
> an intial period of "oh wow" music sampling, followed by
> building out air talent, promotions, etc. We are in the
> beginning of the first phase of the station.
>
> By the way, each Jack is different, with locally researched
> music.
>
> I don't think we will know the sustaining level of this till
> Fall 2005 or Winter 2006.
>
 
Re: About Crystal Balls and Vampire Slayers

> To avoid another long and boring discussion here. I'll just
> leave it at what I said about the majority of the format
> changes in the last year [correct] as well as what I believe
> will happen in the following [ to be correct ].

This seems to translate into, "I am right, I am going to be right and there rest of you posters are wrong."
>
> I know my business David, you think you know yours.

No, I know I know my business, and have many years of documented proof which anyone can verify. None of, as far as I know, even know who you are. You might be a DJ for weddings and Irish wakes, for all I know.

> That's
> cool. I just make the call before it happens.

Unfortunately, neither I nor anyone I know is prescient. For presience, I guess you have to use The Spice for many years and live on Arakis. Maybe you have to be Fremen also... I forgot.

> You wait for
> things to materialize when there's others like me who
> already know.

I wait for listeners to tell me what they want. If it is not what they wanted yesterday, I adapt. Otherwise, the menu is consistent.

> It's less expensive and our clients like it
> that way.

Your clients would be who/what/where?
>
> BTW. I didn't even mention Jack here David, you read
> research all day long, read what things SAY not what you
> wish to interpret them as.

I am not at all sure what that means. I gather you do not advise your clients on syntax and effective langauge. I am a bit of an ESL sort of person, and I am guessing at what you mean.

Actually, I spend much of my time talking to listeners, and the rest implementing what they want. I only "look at" research as a product of projects I conducted with people I interviewed.

> While there's no way to determine
> Jack's success/failure due to the short period of time
> they've had so far. I'll just go on what I know and watch
> the yo-yo effect take place.

Again, I am every-so-humbly in awe at someone who is prescient. I also was in awe of that Israeli guy who could bend spoons by thinking at them. So I guess one could will a higher TSL. Nice skill.
 
Re: About Crystal Balls and Vampire Slayers

If that's what your research is slanted towards then sobeit. I've read many of your posts and with all the research you speak of you still have no answers for anything before it happens. You're a genius when it comes to what has already happened.

If something other than Spanish is discussed you're a lost soul. My calls here on this board have become reality. For the most part I called Love FM and what I believed was possible (ratings wise) before it was fashionable. I called Nine's failure (along with many others) from the start. I was critical of the Zone until they settled the format and now it appears the format doesn't have much of a following, I believe I hit Soul 106.3 on the head, the demise of Power and it's reasons, the stupidity of Kiss FM, the insanity of Big City flipping Spanish and now I believe B96 will begin to erode due to La Kalle.

I don't think I'm bragging here. I'm simply reminding you of what I've stated about Chicago radio BEFORE IT HAPPENED. It's not a crystal ball or voodoo, it's knowing what the hell you're talking. You use your crystal ball to look backwards and I'll use mine to see what's going to happen and tell you why. In the end we can always tell who's right and who's wrong by simply looking at our past posts.
 
Re: About Crystal Balls and Vampire Slayers

> If that's what your research is slanted towards then sobeit.
> I've read many of your posts and with all the research you
> speak of you still have no answers for anything before it
> happens. You're a genius when it comes to what has already
> happened.

I know of no research that will predict the future, in radio or in any form of consumer behaviour.
>
> If something other than Spanish is discussed you're a lost
> soul.

The Beat in San Antonio is certainly a lost radio station... I could go on, but you get the idea.

> My calls here on this board have become reality. For
> the most part I called Love FM and what I believed was
> possible (ratings wise) before it was fashionable. I called
> Nine's failure (along with many others) from the start.

You guessed. Anyone can guess, no one can accurately predict. There are too many simultaneous unknown variables in radio to be able to do so, and no stable base data. We predict the sun will rise, and even at what time, because we have celestial mechanics and centturies or replicable data. In radio, every little change at any station impacts every other station in the market.

Try reading some chaos theory. Radio is chaotic... higly random, with an underlying set of rules.

> I
> was critical of the Zone until they settled the format and
> now it appears the format doesn't have much of a following,
> I believe I hit Soul 106.3 on the head, the demise of Power
> and it's reasons, the stupidity of Kiss FM, the insanity of
> Big City flipping Spanish and now I believe B96 will begin
> to erode due to La Kalle.

If Kalle is good, and if B-96 listeners who are Hispanic like more reggaeton and less hip hop, this will happen. But there is no way of knowing for sure. Not even the people who put Kalle together know for sure. Of that I am positive.

You were also the person who said that reggaetòn had to expand to appeal to non-Hispanics for a hurban to be successful. This, of course, is patently wrong and totally absurd on face value. Of this I am also positive.

(By the way, the only near successful thing Big City did was going Spanish. Unfortunately, the debt Mr. Kakoyanis saddled the company with was too much for anyone to deal with, let alon Charlie and his gang of clowns. But the formats in LA, Phoenix and Chi could have saved BCR were they done a year or so earlier)
>
> I don't think I'm bragging here. I'm simply reminding you of
> what I've stated about Chicago radio BEFORE IT HAPPENED.

You are ignoring the absurd statements you have made, such as the one cited above. I really should just laugh at the idea of a Spanish/Spanglish station with mostly Spanish music having any way of appealing to non-Hispanics. It's pretty funny, you know.

> It's not a crystal ball or voodoo, it's knowing what the
> hell you're talking. You use your crystal ball to look
> backwards and I'll use mine to see what's going to happen
> and tell you why.

Again, there is wild guessing, and educated guessing. You have somewhat more knowledge than many who are on this board. But there is no way of predicting the future beyond a few days or weeks in radio. As they say, you are only as good as your last (song) (joke) (report) (whatever)...

> In the end we can always tell who's right
> and who's wrong by simply looking at our past posts.
>

If you were not so serious about playing Oracle, you might be fun. All of us guess the future. Most of us are not right much or most of the time. If we were, we would win all our football bets.
 
> > But to me, I
> > shouldn't hear a song within during a 24-hour period on an
>
> > oldies station. I heard that way too much on 'JMK for
> years
> > and years.
> >
>
>
> I hate when oldies stations play oldies. That dead air is
> much more effective.

[sigh] Oh, you know what I meant--that I heard songs repeated within a 24-hour period. Oh well.
 
> But to me, I
> shouldn't hear a song within during a 24-hour period on an
> oldies station. I heard that way too much on 'JMK for years
> and years.

Given the length of most oldies, that is around 400 to 500 songs.

However, no one listens for many hours straight. They listen certain hours horizontally through the week, no many hours vertically. The average radio listener in the oldies demos spends around 20 hours a week with radio, so that is 3 hours a day. And they seldom spend more than 10 hours with one station... an hour and a half a day.

So, as long as the songs hit different dayparts and not the same ones too often, it is easy to use a library of good oldies that is not that large.
 
> > But to me, I
> > shouldn't hear a song within during a 24-hour period on an
>
> > oldies station. I heard that way too much on 'JMK for
> years
> > and years.
>
> Given the length of most oldies, that is around 400 to 500
> songs.
>
> However, no one listens for many hours straight. They listen
> certain hours horizontally through the week, no many hours
> vertically. The average radio listener in the oldies demos
> spends around 20 hours a week with radio, so that is 3 hours
> a day. And they seldom spend more than 10 hours with one
> station... an hour and a half a day.
>
> So, as long as the songs hit different dayparts and not the
> same ones too often, it is easy to use a library of good
> oldies that is not that large.

Granted, I'm not a normal person. :) And most of the complaints about that came from the really hardcores who didn't want to dig out their old 45s of obscure songs.

I did notice that at some points in 'JMK's history, when a song came up in rotation that had more than one hit (or tested well) version, they'd play a different version. "Wonderful World" jumps to mind--if they played Sam Cooke the last time, they'd play Herman's Hermits the next time. (They could play Art Garfunkel/Paul Simon/James Taylor a third time, but that probably didn't test well with oldies listeners, let alone AC listeners these days.)

I guess in a preverse sense I want Jack to have *more* attitude--it took them over a month to start taking shots at Eric and Kathy in the liners, when they should've been firing from the start. (Or am I wanting them to be Mancow?) I don't expect them to be flaming Stern, even if he is leaving, but where's the shots at Drex? Mancow? Delilah? John Symonds? Hell, even Kathy and Judy? :)
 
Status
This thread has been closed due to inactivity. You can create a new thread to discuss this topic.


Back
Top Bottom