Contour/legal question

[WayMikeC]

We're a directional FM, class A. Our null protects another station on our channel about 25 miles away, and theirs protects us.

We just did an engineering study and found out that they should never have been licensed, as their protected contour butts up against a 2nd channel adjacent about 10 miles from them. Additionally, they cause problems for our signal inside our own protected contour.

Anecdotally, I'm told by engineers (I am a PD) that the FCC nearly NEVER revokes a license, or sends signals that would admit they make mistakes.

Are there options though for reducing this station's infringement on other signals? While getting them off the air would be ideal (except for them , I don't have high hopes, and their null can't be made any tighter than it already is. What about reducing height and power though, or *anything* else??

 

[CW]

> We're a directional FM, class A. Our null protects another
> station on our channel about 25 miles away, and theirs
> protects us.
>
> We just did an engineering study and found out that they
> should never have been licensed, as their protected contour
> butts up against a 2nd channel adjacent about 10 miles from
> them. Additionally, they cause problems for our signal
> inside our own protected contour.

How did they get licensed then?? Evidently there was something that allowed them to get licensed...but two Class A 25 miles apart?? I have seen that only where there is a mountain range inbetween them How long have they been licensed? Who was 1st on the air?

> Anecdotally, I'm told by engineers (I am a PD) that the FCC
> nearly NEVER revokes a license, or sends signals that would
> admit they make mistakes.

True.....

> Are there options though for reducing this station's
> infringement on other signals? While getting them off the
> air would be ideal (except for them , I don't have high
> hopes, and their null can't be made any tighter than it
> already is. What about reducing height and power though, or
> *anything* else??

I have seen higher class stations downgraded...but if they are a Class A, good luck! Are they 3 or 6 KW?? What about your signal? Got a callsign that can be used to look at the technical details??

 

[WayMikeC]

> How did they get licensed then?? Evidently there was
> something that allowed them to get licensed...but two Class
> A 25 miles apart?? I have seen that only where there is a
> mountain range inbetween them How long have they been
> licensed? Who was 1st on the air?

My guess is that because they (and we) are non-comms, it just happened because there are no allotments for non-comms in the first place.

As for who was first, I believe they were but at a much lower power. The 2nd channel adjacent came on in the 70's (the interfering station in the 50's, and I am unsure of our sign-on. Our license has been passed around quite a bit .

> I have seen higher class stations downgraded...but if they
> are a Class A, good luck! Are they 3 or 6 KW?? What about
> your signal? Got a callsign that can be used to look at the
> technical details??

If you'll e-mail [email protected] off the boards, I can tell you some of that.
They are 1kw @ 154 feet, we are 4kw @ 141 feet. The 2nd channel adjacent is 30kw.

 

[tpt]

Ahh..non-coms!

Different rules apply. All done by contour protection, like an AM.

 

[dickfry]

> We're a directional FM, class A. Our null protects another
> station on our channel about 25 miles away, and theirs
> protects us.
>
> We just did an engineering study and found out that they
> should never have been licensed, as their protected contour
> butts up against a 2nd channel adjacent about 10 miles from
> them. Additionally, they cause problems for our signal
> inside our own protected contour.
>
> Anecdotally, I'm told by engineers (I am a PD) that the FCC
> nearly NEVER revokes a license, or sends signals that would
> admit they make mistakes.
>
> Are there options though for reducing this station's
> infringement on other signals? While getting them off the
> air would be ideal (except for them , I don't have high
> hopes, and their null can't be made any tighter than it
> already is. What about reducing height and power though, or
> *anything* else??
>

Once the FCC grants a license, it becomes a judicial matter to revoke it if nothing about the conditions has changed since the grant. Sounds like the FCC was in error granting it, but that's basically too bad if nobody involved fought it at the time it happened.

- Big Dick

 

[mccay]

Actually, the non-com spacing rules are based strictly on contour protection and not distance between sticks. They are also no where near as rigid as commerical overlap protection requirements on the 2nd adjacent channel.

It is VERY possible to place two Class A's at these power levels within that distance and not have overlapping contours with hyper-directional antenna pattern envelopes at the maximum of 2dB per 10 deg. and 15 dB difference from min to max field.

Finally, it was a little less than 20 years ago that the FCC revised the spacing rules and they very well could have not had any problems with this spacing at the time of license.

From your station being a directional protecting them and them to you, your licensee knew of the condition and collaberated with the other station. It's kind of hard to go back 20 years later and tell the FCC it isn't working. Kind of like unringing a bell.

GR...

> > How did they get licensed then?? Evidently there was
> > something that allowed them to get licensed...but two
> Class
> > A 25 miles apart?? I have seen that only where there is a
> > mountain range inbetween them How long have they been
> > licensed? Who was 1st on the air?
>
> My guess is that because they (and we) are non-comms, it
> just happened because there are no allotments for non-comms
> in the first place.
>
> As for who was first, I believe they were but at a much
> lower power. The 2nd channel adjacent came on in the 70's
> (the interfering station in the 50's, and I am unsure of our
> sign-on. Our license has been passed around quite a bit
> .
>
> > I have seen higher class stations downgraded...but if they
>
> > are a Class A, good luck! Are they 3 or 6 KW?? What about
> > your signal? Got a callsign that can be used to look at
> the
> > technical details??
>
> If you'll e-mail [email protected] off the boards, I can
> tell you some of that.
> They are 1kw @ 154 feet, we are 4kw @ 141 feet. The 2nd
> channel adjacent is 30kw.
>

 

[webcastboy]

> Ahh..non-coms!
>
> Different rules apply. All done by contour protection, like
> an AM.

Precisely...and you can squeeze in contours like you wouldn't believe. In Boston and the suburbs there are FOUR stations on 91.5FM...WMFO, WMLN, WUML and WZLY. On the South Shore we also have an obnoxious CP for a religious satellator on 90.5 that has this crazily-directional pattern to shoehorn it in around WICN 90.5, WZBC 90.3, and WRIU 90.3...plus WKKL 90.7 and WCAI 90.1 on the Cape.

There's also "negotiated interference"...meaning one station, we'll call it WXYZ, can receive interference from another station, we'll call it WABC. If the interference is in an area WXYZ doesn't care about, and this all can be documented in a legal sense, then WABC can present it's case to go on the air with WXYZ's blessing and the FCC will often accept it.

Why would any station accept interference? Simple - the contour rules are arbitrary at best. In many real-world cases the interference is non-existant, or limited to a tiny radius.

Most Class D 10 watt college stations that ended up bumped to the commercial band stayed on the air that way. WBRS at Brandeis University ended up on WZLX 100.7 & WKLB 99.7's 3rd adjacent when they moved to 100.1FM. However, the 3rd interference area is barely 50ft; entirely confined to Brandeis's campus. It still took an affidavit from Brandeis swearing that none of the employees in the buildings on that part of campus were WZLX listeners.

However, it doesn't always happen. One huge Class B NCE in Boston (we'll call them W123 has tried for many years to move from their grandfathered location on a mountain to tower cluster a dozen miles to the northwest. They'll get several 100 feet of extra height out of it. There's a medium Class A NCE closer to the city (we'll call them W456) on the 3rd adjacent that would be affected. However, on the tower cluster W123 wants to move to...there's another big Class B (we'll call them W789) that's ALSO on W456's third adjacent.

So for W456 there's ALREADY a third adjacent interference "zone" around this tower cluster. In the real world, the total amount of third adjacent interference will be reduced because instead of two separate interference zones...there would be only one zone affecting W456.

As such, and because engineers at both stations are friends with each other W456 agreed to sign off on W123's move.

However, the contour rules indicate there will be a slight increase in total 3rd adjacent to W456. As I said, in the real world it won't be the case (and that's been confirmed using Longley-Rice projections that account for terrain). But in the arbitrary world of contour measurements, it'll be a very small increase (less than 1000 people in a suburb of 100000+)

As such, the FCC shot it down. Ah well.

 

[WayMikeC]

> From your station being a directional protecting them and
> them to you, your licensee knew of the condition and
> collaberated with the other station. It's kind of hard to
> go back 20 years later and tell the FCC it isn't working.
> Kind of like unringing a bell.

I understand that even a remote possibility may be a pipe dream, but consider this:

1) Interfering station FORGOT (!) to renew their license, and only got around to it after being tipped off to it.
2) This station also failed to maintain any kind of a public file.
3) They also did not keep their EOE stuff updated.
4) In addition to infringing on our protected contour, their own contour and a 2nd channel adjacent's overlap. This was just discovered this month. Nobody realized it before.

With all those factors working against that station, is there nothing that can be done? Even reducing their height/power???

 

[dumber than a box of hair]

>1) Interfering station FORGOT (!) to renew their license, and only got around to it after being tipped off to it.<

That's none of your business. It's a matter between them and the FCC. If the FCC accepted their renewal application for filing, even if it was filed late, there's nothing you can do about it.

>2) This station also failed to maintain any kind of a public file.<

Exactly how do you know that? Did you go to the station and ask to see it, or is this hearsay? *IF* it's true, it's worth a huge fine (public files are an FCC hot-button issue), but does not constitute grounds to revoke the license.

>3) They also did not keep their EOE stuff updated.<

Irrelevant, since there have been no EEO filing requirements for almost a decade. The courts threw out the FCC's EEO program on procedural and equal-protection grounds, and the FCC has yet to come up with an EEO program which will satisfy the courts.

>4) In addition to infringing on our protected contour, their own contour and a 2nd channel adjacent's overlap. This was just discovered this month. Nobody realized it before.<

Again, that's a matter between them and the FCC. I suspect there was either a waiver or an instance of negotiated interference which you are not aware of. If no one realized it before, then your station got some bad engineering advice when the CP application was in process, but you will not unring that bell now.

I've been in the radio business for close to 40 years, and this thing doesn't evey begin to pass the smell test. If you are determined to go through with this (and frankly I'm glad I don't work for your station; is this the way you treat every competitor? is this the kind of reputation you really want?), make dead sure that you are in possession of hard, credible FACTS, backed by evidence or records...not rumors, gossip or innuendo. Also, make absolutely sure that your own station's house is in perfect, 100%, apple-pie order. FCC inspectors get very suspicious of station owners who rat out other stations. They also get very testy when made to chase their tails by a case of sour grapes.

 

[WayMikeC]

> >1) Interfering station FORGOT (!) to renew their license,
> and only got around to it after being tipped off to it.<
>
> That's none of your business. It's a matter between them
> and the FCC. If the FCC accepted their renewal application
> for filing, even if it was filed late, there's nothing you
> can do about it.

I disagree about it not being "none" of my business. The whole reason we have to apply and renew is to be accountable to the public. My job aside, they're not above board and as one of the millions of owners of the public airwaves, I should have some kind of effective means to share my dissatisfaction.
>
> >2) This station also failed to maintain any kind of a
> public file.<
>
> Exactly how do you know that? Did you go to the station and
> ask to see it, or is this hearsay? *IF* it's true, it's
> worth a huge fine (public files are an FCC hot-button
> issue), but does not constitute grounds to revoke the
> license.

I know it because they admitted it. Our engineer spoke with their GM, and when they applied to renew, they disclosed that fact.

> >4) In addition to infringing on our protected contour,
> their own contour and a 2nd channel adjacent's overlap. This
> was just discovered this month. Nobody realized it before.<
>
>
> Again, that's a matter between them and the FCC. I suspect
> there was either a waiver or an instance of negotiated
> interference which you are not aware of. If no one realized
> it before, then your station got some bad engineering advice
> when the CP application was in process, but you will not
> unring that bell now.

Fair enough. I don't think anybody who cared at any of the three stations involved was paying attention. Now *I* am if nobody else is.

> I've been in the radio business for close to 40 years, and
> this thing doesn't evey begin to pass the smell test. If
> you are determined to go through with this (and frankly I'm
> glad I don't work for your station; is this the way you
> treat every competitor? is this the kind of reputation you
> really want?)

First, no we don't treat everybody that way. We aren't even treating THEM (the violating station) badly. In fact, when I personally discovered that they had forgotten to renew, we informed them directly and promptly, plus we offered them use of our lawyers to help them sort things out. It's only after sitting by for months, not seeing the situation resolved, that I now grow impatient.

> make dead sure that you are in possession of
> hard, credible FACTS, backed by evidence or records...not
> rumors, gossip or innuendo. Also, make absolutely sure that
> your own station's house is in perfect, 100%, apple-pie
> order.

The facts are a lock. Our own house IS in order, and we're quite tedious about keeping it that way. That's why it is so frustrating that a station who was not even competent enough to KNOW that they had no license or maintain even a joke of a public file will get away with this and continue to cause interference with us inside our protected contour. There are even MORE things they STILL aren't above board with (lack of Legal IDs, commercials on their non-comm frequency) that I am not including in my complaints here.

If they were a station that was trying to serve the public in some fashion, I'd live and let live. However, they don't even attempt to serve an audience with it and they break laws in the process, at the expense of stations who are passionate about serving the public.

Thanks for your insight and wisdom.