Cost of running 1190

[gordontalk]

Does anyone have a rough estimate of what it might cost to run 1190 comercial free for a month with all costs? I know that it's probably expensive to power the transmitter, but does anyone know how much? Then I guess that the music has to be paid for as well. That station hasn't played spots in a couple of years that I know of. So how is it viable to continue doing that?

 

[radi0chik]

Because First Broadcasting is still LMA-ing it through the end of December. They're paying CC to program it. I'm honestly not sure what *THEY* get out of it, but it's not CC's money, it's First's - or whatever their name is now that they've split up.

 

[DrAkbar]

With all the changes in AM radio over the past two decades, why hasn't 11~90 done something about that 12 tower nighttime site? When the Old Scotsman built it in the 60's, there were a lot more stations to protect at night. Today the scenery has changed, and even WOWO in Ft Wayne has lowered nighttime power. Two xmttr sites and 16 sticks seems a bit much by today's standards.

 

[Steve Eberhart]

My understanding is that the LMA for 1190 is $50,000 per month.
The issue is not only what it costs to operate it per month, but the inability to find that amount of revenue to support.
Granted the nighttime signal leaves a lot to be desired, but with that mamoth of a daytime signal, one would think someone could find something to put on that signal to make it worthwhile.
It should be interesting to see what Clear Channel chooses to put on it after the current LMA ends.

 

[radi0chik]

It should be interesting to see what Clear Channel chooses to put on it after the current LMA ends.

It'll be another LMA.

 

[gordontalk]

So is there any way to know how the station actually does in the book? Surely people listen to it.

 

[MikeShannon914]

It'd be a bargain for BizRadio; less that what they're paying for 1360 and getting better coverage AND fits their daytime-only schedule. And surely it'd be cheaper than the time and engineering $$$$$$$$$$$$ they will waste trying to cram 940 into the market.

 

[radi0chik]

Gordon I don't have any access to the ratings but from what I understand 1190 with what they're playing now DOES show up on the ratings book. Apparently its not much, but it does show up.

 

[muzzled]

Mike, as long as Dan Frishberg and the mail order bride from the Phillipines run BIzradio and not allow Brent carte blance, don't expect common sense or miracles from them.

 

[arnoldevns]

I can't speak for the current economics of running that outfit, but I know that in the early 90s the cost was around 20 grand a month just to keep the transmitter on. If they're paying 50 grand a month for it, CC is probably clearing a small profit.

I also know that when the station had Rush Limbaugh in the early 90s, it occasionally billed about 200 grand in a month. When it lost him to WBAP, it dropped to under 100 grand in short order and started to lose a ton of cash.

If First is doing a cheap country format with a .4 they might be able to bill enough to cover the bill to CC, but I doubt they're getting enough to cover the cost of staff, studio, etc. Clearly there's no promotion of any kind going on.

 

[ocala500]

The night time signal was a hour glass going north and south pretty much, during the 80's when Susquehanna had KLIF on 1190. It was also a tough sell on the street. I think if we billed $20,000, that was a good month back in 1980. At night we pretty much lost Tarrant County. We did have an engineer play around with some of the equipment and I think he pulled a bunch of audio processing gear that had been hooked up by McClendon and all of a sudden, we could be picked up in parts of Arlington. Baiscally you have a good daytime signal and nights are a real nightmare. One old time story that use to be used when we would sell against WBAP was that they had only ONE tower and WE HAD 12!!

 

[billyg]

With all the changes in AM radio over the past two decades, why hasn't 11~90 done something about that 12 tower nighttime site? When the Old Scotsman built it in the 60's, there were a lot more stations to protect at night. Today the scenery has changed, and even WOWO in Ft Wayne has lowered nighttime power. Two xmttr sites and 16 sticks seems a bit much by today's standards.

So true. You'd think with WOWO out of the way CC would have tried to increase that night signal to the N-NE to cover Denton. A new engineering study really needs to be done for a new night pattern.

And another thing - I have noticed 1190's daytime signal has been weaker here in East Texas the past 2-3 months... have they gone dreaded IBOC too? I hate the way CC has been running 1190 like a ghetto slumlord.

 

[CW]

The night time signal was a hour glass going north and south pretty much, during the 80's when Susquehanna had KLIF on 1190. It was also a tough sell on the street. I think if we billed $20,000, that was a good month back in 1980. At night we pretty much lost Tarrant County. We did have an engineer play around with some of the equipment and I think he pulled a bunch of audio processing gear that had been hooked up by McClendon and all of a sudden, we could be picked up in parts of Arlington. Baiscally you have a good daytime signal and nights are a real nightmare. One old time story that use to be used when we would sell against WBAP was that they had only ONE tower and WE HAD 12!!

No, 1190s night signal is not and NEVER has been N-S hourglass...the 12 tower array is broadside and squirts the 75KW ERP out of the 5KW transmitter mostly 240deg true from the tower site (with a small, VERY small bit toward Terrell).....The joke has been since the Rockwall site was built, the signal goes down Commerce and DOESNT touch the curb. Dont know who told you what you posted, but its dead wrong...(just like Clear Channel)...

Audio gear under McClendon was top notch......pulling it would have NO effect on the RF signal..you either have RF or not...Audio would just make it sound LOUDER, not stronger signal wise. The night pattern is shown on Radio-Locator as well as the FCC web site...it has NEVER been any different.

 

[CW]

With all the changes in AM radio over the past two decades, why hasn't 11~90 done something about that 12 tower nighttime site? When the Old Scotsman built it in the 60's, there were a lot more stations to protect at night. Today the scenery has changed, and even WOWO in Ft Wayne has lowered nighttime power. Two xmttr sites and 16 sticks seems a bit much by today's standards.

So true. You'd think with WOWO out of the way CC would have tried to increase that night signal to the N-NE to cover Denton. A new engineering study really needs to be done for a new night pattern.

And another thing - I have noticed 1190's daytime signal has been weaker here in East Texas the past 2-3 months... have they gone dreaded IBOC too?

Got news for ya...it's not WOWO that was restricting Denton..it was KEX, Portland Oregon (the other Class A on 1190)..PLUS an unbuilt Canadian allocation on 1190 that has been since dropped from the tables.

When CC bought 1190 Dallas in 2001, it WAS suggested (by a very forward thinking engineer to CC VP of Engineering Gil Garcia that the pattern toward WOWO could be "legally" opened up since WOWO downgraded (it already IS opened and above legal limits when a FIM was used to check the pattern at Lowery Mays and Randy Michaels' insistance...new cell towers in Rockwall RIGHT in the main lobe caused the pattern to reflect that way..it was supposed to be 3mV toward WOWO, it was 6-10 times worse!!)..AND since CC owned KEX, that could be opened up as well and fix the north Dallas reception problem (you can interfer with your own sister stations by having a mutual interference agreement drawn up...all perfectly legal in case one of the two gets sold later!)....but CC did not want to spend the money for that, especially since they just spent $18million for 1190 buying it from Radio One (what a joke of a ROI for CC...RO though was laughing to the bank!) but it aint gonna happen now..
Since WOWO downgraded, a number of co channel 1190s have increased power and changed patterns (the Kansas City and Atlanta ones comes to mind)...CC blew it for 1190 in Dallas...could have, but didnt and will not be able to...

 

[billyg]

Got news for ya...it's not WOWO that was restricting Denton..it was KEX, Portland Oregon (the other Class A on 1190)..PLUS an unbuilt Canadian allocation on 1190 that has been since dropped from the tables.

When CC bought 1190 Dallas in 2001, it WAS suggested (by a very forward thinking engineer to CC VP of Engineering Gil Garcia that the pattern toward WOWO could be "legally" opened up since WOWO downgraded (it already IS opened and above legal limits when a FIM was used to check the pattern at Lowery Mays and Randy Michaels' insistance...new cell towers in Rockwall RIGHT in the main lobe caused the pattern to reflect that way..it was supposed to be 3mV toward WOWO, it was 6-10 times worse!!)..AND since CC owned KEX, that could be opened up as well and fix the north Dallas reception problem (you can interfer with your own sister stations by having a mutual interference agreement drawn up...all perfectly legal in case one of the two gets sold later!)....but CC did not want to spend the money for that, especially since they just spent $18million for 1190 buying it from Radio One (what a joke of a ROI for CC...RO though was laughing to the bank!) but it aint gonna happen now..
Since WOWO downgraded, a number of co channel 1190s have increased power and changed patterns (the Kansas City and Atlanta ones comes to mind)...CC blew it for 1190 in Dallas...could have, but didnt and will not be able to...

Yeah they blew it - CC had a sleeping giant in their hands.

A quick study of frequencies on 1190 show those power increases aren't much (no big night signals)... I still think it could be done... CC now just wants to dump 1190, so it probably never get done.

 

[CW]

Yeah they blew it - CC had a sleeping giant in their hands.

A quick study of frequencies on 1190 show those power increases aren't much (no big night signals)... I still think it could be done... CC now just wants to dump 1190, so it probably never get done.

Power increase in one thing, but Class increase is the other on AM...WOWO and KEX were old Class I-As then converted to Class A...thus keeping their skywave protection..When WOWO downgraded, they are now Class B...I think Kansas City MAY have upgraded from D to B so that would be an issue for 1190 DFW and I THINK there is a 250watt 1190 in AZ somewhere but it may still be locked in by KEX.

 

[jd]

CW, your idea of CC looking at a mutual interference agreement with KEX makes sense, but you didn't mention the adjacent channel protection afforded to CC's flagship AM on 1200. WOAI is just one more reason for the narrow KFXR pattern; of course, even if they could lower that protection toward San Antonio there's still a problem with XEWK 1190 in Guadalajara. Interestingly, though, the original pattern for the old 1,000 watt 1190 site on Scyene Road made a pretty good skywave contribution toward Mexico (so there was a precedent, of sorts). What do you think? Would reorienting the pattern from a site somewhere in Collin County, let's say, be worth a look?

 

[CW]

CW, your idea of CC looking at a mutual interference agreement with KEX makes sense, but you didn't mention the adjacent channel protection afforded to CC's flagship AM on 1200. WOAI is just one more reason for the narrow KFXR pattern; of course, even if they could lower that protection toward San Antonio there's still a problem with XEWK 1190 in Guadalajara. Interestingly, though, the original pattern for the old 1,000 watt 1190 site on Scyene Road made a pretty good skywave contribution toward Mexico (so there was a precedent, of sorts). What do you think? Would reorienting the pattern from a site somewhere in Collin County, let's say, be worth a look?

I knew about WOAI 1st adj...but then again, XEWK would be a killer on any pattern shift to the south (especially now with 5KW..skywave would be a product of the tower height and I dont recall what the old night site had as to electrical length) so even a MIA with WOAI would not help...but all it really needs is opening to the NW so it cover Dallas North and Tarrant Co. The null toward KEX goes right through the original CC 1190 studios at the Madison building (kinda hard to hear the station at night there along N Tollway) As long as the null toward XEWK is kept, they could fix the problem...Would not even have to increase power, just open the pattern and put SOME signal across the north side of town

Collin Co would NOT be a good idea (think 620AM ...NO coverage to the south would be an issue..so goodbye S. Dallas, Grand Prairie, etc. at night..Actually moving the site to the SE and making it "look" west and north would be best (if they could find the land in SE which they probably could....they COULD make a killing off the acreage in Rockwall if the 12 towers went away)

Dave Hultsman of Continental Electronics (former Chief during the KLIF days) told me they once looked at (I think) 1KW from the Irving day site...but the unbuilt but allocated Canadian 1190 killed it..since it never got built and is now removed from the allocation tables, Irving might have been possible for night but probably not now that KC's 1190 has upgraded....(you snooze, ya lose)

 

[oldiesfan6479]

...and I THINK there is a 250watt 1190 in AZ somewhere...

KNUV Tolleson (PHX market). It may now be 400w at night.

http://www.radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/finder?call=KNUV&sr=Y&s=C

 

[DrAkbar]

CC did not want to spend the money for that, especially since they just spent $18million for 1190 buying it from Radio One (what a joke of a ROI for CC...RO though was laughing to the bank!) but it aint gonna happen now.. Ouch...18 big ones for a dead AM in an FM market. Randy Michaels must have had something on L. Mays as that price made absolutely no sense.

Speaking of strange arrays like 11~90's, wonder what the ERP is on this Houston gem: http://radio-locator.com/cgi-bin/info?call=KNTH&service=AM Check out the satellite view of the xmttr site...if those nearby homes got surveyed, bet KNTH's ratings would be higher ;D