Could 750 WSB go to FM

[Rick Rose 2.0]

A trend across the country has been the moving of popular AM news/talk stations to FM signals to improve ratings in the younger demos which improves billing. Cox has seen good things in Dayton and Jacksonville by trying this idea out and other markets have seen revenue increases by being on FM. I would assume 95.5 would be the best candidate since they have to be the profitable out of Cox's Atlanta cluster. I know WSB is already on 97.1 HD-2 and WGST is on 94.9 HD-3.

 

[TheRealOtherNeil]

While I respect your opinion, I disagree. What reason would Cox have for simulcasting the programming from the 50,000-watt, clear-channel, blow torch on FM? Oh, I know, Sean Hannity sounds even more smug on crystal clear FM. WGST used to simulblast on 105.7 that was due to their lack of signal strength after dusk. 'SB doesn't have that problem.

I got news for you, the younger demo doesn't care about news, especially from radio. In fact the younger demo hasn't listened to radio in years. They podcast or mp3 it. Radio news, like televiosn news is going the way of quadraphonic sound, cassettes and plasma screen TV's.

If I may make a plug...c'mon down to Neil & Roddy's House of Antiquated Technology. We've got 8-tracks, Beta machines and TRS-80's ready to move. We're open all weekend for the Memorial Day Blowout, next to the Great SouthEast Music Hall. The first 10 customers who buy a Yugo will receive tickets to Sid & Marty Kroftt's Supershow at the Omni.

 

[Kabrich]

In fact the younger demo hasn't listened to radio in years.

Let me reach into the clue jar and hand you one....maybe even six......

Over the past 12 months, every week in Atlanta:

94.0% of the 12-17 Year Olds listen to the Radio
95.4% of the 18-24 Year Olds listen to the Radio
96.2% of the 25-34 Year Olds listen to the Radio
97.3% of the 35-44 Year Olds listen to the Radio
96.2% of the 45-54 Year Olds listen to the Radio

And you wonder why you will never be taken seriously.

 

[taylorengineer]

Well.....actually.....Neil is right on the money concerning kids and radio.
Your 12-17 numbers are car listening mostly - kids are listening to whatever mom is listening to on the way to school or the grocery store. So yes, most kids listen to "some" radio every day. I think if you look at TSL you will find they are "car trip" periods - not the hours of TSL when I was young.(50-70's) I'll bet my last dime 90% of this listening occurs with adults.
Just from observing my own kids and their friends I can assure you they are not listening to the radio in their own free time. My oldest son, a budding musician, can't tell you even the college station menu in Atlanta - he downloads any music onto his MP3. New music buzz is constant - I can't even keep up with all the different sites kids are using to keep up with the latest music - they are getting along just fine without radio.
This trend has only started in the last few years - that's why the 18-34 numbers still show heavy radio listening. But uless the paradigm changes I suspect this may be the last demo to depend on radio for anything - anyone younger will grow up getting there news, weather, and entertainment elsewhere.
Anyone else with kids out there who can validate my observations?

In fact the younger demo hasn't listened to radio in years.

Let me reach into the clue jar and hand you one....maybe even six......

Over the past 12 months, every week in Atlanta:

94.0% of the 12-17 Year Olds listen to the Radio
95.4% of the 18-24 Year Olds listen to the Radio
96.2% of the 25-34 Year Olds listen to the Radio
97.3% of the 35-44 Year Olds listen to the Radio
96.2% of the 45-54 Year Olds listen to the Radio

And you wonder why you will never be taken seriously.

 

[kyscott]

In fact the younger demo hasn't listened to radio in years.

Let me reach into the clue jar and hand you one....maybe even six......
Over the past 12 months, every week in Atlanta:

94.0% of the 12-17 Year Olds listen to the Radio
95.4% of the 18-24 Year Olds listen to the Radio
96.2% of the 25-34 Year Olds listen to the Radio
97.3% of the 35-44 Year Olds listen to the Radio
96.2% of the 45-54 Year Olds listen to the Radio

And you wonder why you will never be taken seriously.

Where are those numbers from?

 

[RoddyFreeman]

We're not talking about kids, Tom. It's about younger demos.

Rick is correct that news/talk stations moving to or adding FM has become a significant trend over the past year. And the result has been attracting a somewhat younger audience.

In Washington, Bonneville's all-news WTOP moved from its longtime 50,000-watt AM signal to FM and is near the top of the 12+ ratings. In Indianapolis, Emmis' perennial news/talk powerhouse WFMS moved from AM to FM, turning the AM to sports, and has seen similar results with its new news/talk FM. And as Rick mentions, Cox's WOKV in Jacksonville and WHIO in Dayton have added FM simulcasts to their AM with success. Another example is New Orlean's 50,000-watt news/talk AM WWL, owned by Clear Channel, which added an FM simulcast.

As far as WSB, there's really no reason for them to do it at this point. WSB still dominates in younger (25-54) demos though its total audience skews old. So its billings potential with AM only remains huge. And there is no news/talk competition on FM. Finally, all of Cox's FM's are strong and making money, including The Beat.

One thing I've been wondering about is if (when) The Beat moves its transmitter into Atlanta, which will make its signal competitive to anyone's, whether Cox will put on a format with bigger billings potential than The Beat's current format.

 

[RTibbs]

I heard they are think of switching to all-sports on 95.5 the Beat to eliminate two of their AM competitors and going back after the Braves and Hawks. The drive time show will be hosted by Chris Dimino and the son of the voice of the UGA football team Larry Munson, Jr.

 

[RoddyFreeman]

I heard they are think of switching to all-sports on 95.5 the Beat to eliminate two of their AM competitors and going back after the Braves and Hawks. The drive time show will be hosted by Chris Dimino and the son of the voice of the UGA football team Larry Munson, Jr.

Okay, I'm waiting for the other shoe to drop. Where do Jordan Graye and Kate McCarthy fit in?

 

[RTibbs]

Sideline reporters on UGA games. Loren is out. Jordan gets the dogs and KAte the visitors.

 

[taylorengineer]

When you say "younger demos" I assume you're talking about anyone between 6 and 24. I think that is what group Neil was speaking about when he commented about their lack of interest in radio. Another person posted numbers which show 94% 12-17 teens "listen to radio." I'm simply disputing these numbers as valid and supposing that Neil is right.
WSB would get a temporary jump in younger numbers by moving to FM - I do not dispute Rick's thinking. But long term, radio is gradually losing steam and may possibly be irrelevant by the time a 12 year old reaches the 25-54 demo.
Most of the kids (18-24 mostly) working for my college station do not listen to commercial radio. They do not want to work in commercial radio. They don't know the personalities or the calls or the formats. There are exceptions, like Rev Andy, but for the most part they live their lives oblivious to the muckery of our beloved medium. When I first started working there 13 years ago it was the exact opposite.
If I'm not talking about the demo you're talking about.....they will soon be that demo.
And you can blather on about the relevance of radio but I'm here to tell you "the times.....they are....a..... changin'"

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

In Washington, Bonneville's all-news WTOP moved from its longtime 50,000-watt AM signal to FM and is near the top of the 12+ ratings. In Indianapolis, Emmis' perennial news/talk powerhouse WFMS moved from AM to FM, turning the AM to sports, and has seen similar results with its new news/talk FM.

I believe that would be Emmis' powerhouse WIBC moved from AM to FM.

WFMS has been FM, as in Williams FM, as in Martin William FM when it originated for at least 43 years. I was never in the studios when they were in the Antlers Hotel but I used to visit with Martin after he moved the station east of downtown Indy circa 1967.

 

[RoddyFreeman]

You're correct. I meant WIBC.

 

[jal41]

WSB is already on FM at 98.5 and has been for over 50 years. WSB-AM and WSB-FM have never simulcast.

I don't see WSB-AM adding an FM simulcast because there is no reason to. WSB-AM is #2 12+, so people are having no problem listening to the AM signal. Also, you would only get one set of revenues for a simulcast (unless advertisers warmed to the idea of split ads, which could backfire). Cox makes more money with five stations with five different sets of programming, rather than five stations with four sets of programming. Cox would have to add the maintenece of the FM simulcaster to the budget of the AM, and they could lose money (again, I personally don't think advertisers would want to pay more for ads to take care of an additional stick when it is not needed).

Plus...WSB-AM is simulcast on WSRV-HD2. Cox and the other companies have invested in HD Radio, and need to have incentives to get a good return on investment. Even though WSB-AM-HD backfired big time, they found an FM-HD to place a simulcast on.

While I am not an expert in this matter, common sense tells me the economics for an analog FM simulcast in this case do not add up. I suspect these issues of economics is why WGST-FM went away in 2000 (before the whole Clear Channel cluster got f'ed up). If something happened to severely affect WSB-AM's signal, I might see an FM simulcast at that point.

Here are some big news/talkers on AM that do not have an FM simulcast (in no order)...WABC, WLS, KFI, WMAL, WFLA, WGN, KKOB. That is just a sampling. These stations are doing fine, and often the top rated in their markets. Cox has added FM simulcasts to their AM news/talkers in Dayton (WHIO) and Jacksonville (WOKV) because the AM signals have issues. This is not the case with WSB. WSB and all of the stations I listed have 50,000 watt signals. While WTOP (Now WWWT) is 50,000 watts, their signal had issues, so an FM simulcast was estabished before the move. WBT added one because of issues. Neither of them I mentioned are full-market simulcasters, the just cover a small portion of their markets.

Had WSB-AM not been smart enough to turn off IBOC (which was affecting their signal), this discussion would be different. The situation may be different in a few years, and WSB-AM programming may have to move (or simulcast) if the news/talk format stays viable and AM loses its viability (even at blowtorch power). For now, it seems like keeping things the way they are is the way to go.

 

[RoddyFreeman]

If WSB-AM ever did simulcast with an FM, it would not have to be with the current WSB-FM. To WSB-FM's listeners, the station is B98.5 and would still be with different call letters.

Nobody said there are not still a lot of major news/talk stations on AM only. We said the move of news/talk stations to FM or an FM simulcast has become a trend.

In the case of WBT, I agree with you, Jal, regarding the reason for the FM simulcast. WBT-AM has a phenomenal daytime signal. But at night, it doesn't go to the west. So the little 99.3 signal gets the station coverage in South Carolina suburbs. Of course, the original WBT-FM is 107.9, now WLNK, and a far bigger signal.

As far as WOKV, the station has a 50,000-watt non-directional daytime signal and no need for an FM for signal reasons in the day. At night, the station changes transmitter locations and becomes directional to the east at 25,000 watts. However, the little FM signal that is simulcast actually pretty much fits within the AM nighttime coverage area. It does not really add coverage.

In the case of WHIO, the daytime signal is good, and the nighttime signal is pretty good and covers pretty much the areas that need to be covered. The FM provides additional coverage to the north, but I'm not sure if that much population lives within the additional areas that the FM covers.

WTOP-AM was simulcast with the FM for about a month before going FM only. It did not establish the FM until then.

We agree that WSB has no reason to simulcast at this point. And coverage is part of the reason. But the bigger reason is that the station, while skewing old, is still very strong in the 25-54 demo and therefore still has tremendous billings potential.

 

[jal41]

Potential scenario

One option for the future (if Cox is willing to invest)...Make WSB-AM all-news 24/7, and move the talk programming to a new station (Keep B98.5's format and the WSB-FM calls on 98.5 - turn WBTS or WSRV into that station, use a seperate four-letter callsign for the new talk station for seperation of identification, and brand appropriately).

Cox could make big money this way by 1) Bringing an all-news format to Atlanta. 2) Adding more talk programming to the FM talker. This new station would not have talk shows interrupted by breaking news the way WSB-AM does currently.

Cox did this with WCNN during the LMA in the late 90's, althought both were News/Talk, operating in tandem with WSB-AM.

Logic would tell me the audience for news has always skewed older than talk (with TV news, the average viewer is 60).

Although the stations will probably not be top 5 (they both may be top 10, however) because the current WSB-AM audience would be split between the two stations. Whether Cox would want to take a risk with their flagship would have to be considered.

This would be a good solution, although it would require Cox to spend money (if Cox Radio goes private as predicted, money will not be an issue) and deal with lower ratings for both stations.

 

[tothedj]

Another station that has a FM signal simulcasting their AM is KSL in Salt Lake
City, 1160 is heard at 102.7 there.

 

[Kabrich]

In fact the younger demo hasn't listened to radio in years.

Let me reach into the clue jar and hand you one....maybe even six......
Over the past 12 months, every week in Atlanta:

94.0% of the 12-17 Year Olds listen to the Radio
95.4% of the 18-24 Year Olds listen to the Radio
96.2% of the 25-34 Year Olds listen to the Radio
97.3% of the 35-44 Year Olds listen to the Radio
96.2% of the 45-54 Year Olds listen to the Radio

And you wonder why you will never be taken seriously.

Where are those numbers from?

The only numbers that track this accurately - Arbitron.

Well.....actually.....Neil is right on the money concerning kids and radio.
Your 12-17 numbers are car listening mostly - kids are listening to whatever mom is listening to on the way to school or the grocery store. So yes, most kids listen to "some" radio every day. I think if you look at TSL you will find they are "car trip" periods - not the hours of TSL when I was young.(50-70's) I'll bet my last dime 90% of this listening occurs with adults.

More clueless posters.......

63.2% of Atlanta teens listen to Radio at home for an average of 10.5 hours a week.
21.7% of Atlanta teens listen to Radio away from home while working for an average of 17.5 hours a week.
10.5% of Atlanta teens listen to Radio away from home (excluding car listening and at work listening - think friends house or school) for an average of 4.25 Hours a week.

And, just for reference, Atlanta teens also listened to radio in cars for an Average of 8.75 hours a week - but as can be seen that is less than what they listened to radio while at home and half of what they listened to while working.

 

[Kabrich]

Where are those numbers from?

The only numbers that track this accurately - Arbitron.

Well.....actually.....Neil is right on the money concerning kids and radio.
Your 12-17 numbers are car listening mostly - kids are listening to whatever mom is listening to on the way to school or the grocery store. So yes, most kids listen to "some" radio every day. I think if you look at TSL you will find they are "car trip" periods - not the hours of TSL when I was young.(50-70's) I'll bet my last dime 90% of this listening occurs with adults.

More clueless posters.......

63.2% of Atlanta teens listen to Radio at home for an average of 10.5 hours a week.
21.7% of Atlanta teens listen to Radio away from home while working for an average of 17.5 hours a week.
10.5% of Atlanta teens listen to Radio away from home (excluding car listening and at work listening - think friends house or school) for an average of 4.25 Hours a week.

And, just for reference, Atlanta teens also listened to radio in cars for an Average of 8.75 hours a week - but as can be seen that is less than what they listened to radio while at home and half of what they listened to while working.


Only a fool would think that most every teens (or even a majority) have access to a portable iPod/MP3 player.

 

[Kabrich]

Where are those numbers from?

The only numbers that track radio with a high sample and give you stats and margin of error tables - Arbitron.

Well.....actually.....Neil is right on the money concerning kids and radio.
Your 12-17 numbers are car listening mostly - kids are listening to whatever mom is listening to on the way to school or the grocery store. So yes, most kids listen to "some" radio every day. I think if you look at TSL you will find they are "car trip" periods - not the hours of TSL when I was young.

Imagine that - there are PS3, XBOX, internet, iPods and cellphones. I bet most kids don't spend as much time doing chores around home or studying as they did when you were young either! Too bad your study habits did not continue into the real world.

63.2% of Atlanta teens listen to Radio at home for an average of 10.5 hours a week.
21.7% of Atlanta teens listen to Radio away from home while working for an average of 17.5 hours a week.
10.5% of Atlanta teens listen to Radio away from home (excluding car listening and at work listening - think friends house or school) for an average of 4.25 Hours a week.

And, just for reference, Atlanta teens also listened to radio in cars for an Average of 8.75 hours a week - but as can be seen that is less than what they listened to radio while at home and half of what they listened to while working.


Only a fool would think that most every teens (or even a majority) have access to a portable iPod/MP3 player.

I'll bet my last dime 90% of this listening occurs with adults.

Stay away from the casinos with your money as you make horrible bets.

 

[only1moore]

Re: Potential scenario

One option for the future (if Cox is willing to invest)...Make WSB-AM all-news 24/7, and move the talk programming to a new station (Keep B98.5's format and the WSB-FM calls on 98.5 - turn WBTS or WSRV into that station, use a seperate four-letter callsign for the new talk station for seperation of identification, and brand appropriately).

Personally, I don't see Cox messing with WBTS since they have been successful with their Rhythmic format.