Could a "deep cuts" station survive?

[wilsonbl5150]

This all started on the topic "Cindy Skull and Robert Miguel ???Fired?? P&K takeover??? " toward the bottom of page five and I thought it deserved its own subject.

Here are some highlights:

That raises the question of what is great rock music? I can guarantee my definition differs from yours. Some people believe KISS is a great rock band. I believe they are hacks. How about hair bands? Or grunge? 80's synth? 60's psychodelia?

No matter what genre of rock you decide to program you're going to end up with the same problem that has plague radio for the last 30 years: the same 3 songs from the same 20 bands on an endless, unchanging playlist that repeats every few hours until the crack of doom. I would rather listen to talk that is unique every day rather than the same tired songs over and over. It gets my mind started in the morning.

(Disdain intended...) from Albert19X

Times have changed...this ain't the early 70's. Dallas can't support a "commercial" AAA....much less a "deep, cool, groovy AOR". I got better service at Western Auto in 1976, but I have to go to Wal Mart now for most things. Times change. Get over it. from johnqdoe

TheRover also has some good points to read on that page.

So what do you think? Can a "classic rock" station survive playing "deep cuts"?

 

[OKCRadioGuy]

A true deep cuts format wont ever amount to anything more an something like an hd2 channel on autopilot. Now. with that being said a properly formatted classic rocker spinning 1200 too 2000 of the RIGHTtunes can do VERY well. I've been
n there and have seen it done. How about double digits at one point? Good B songs tossed in every so often along with new tunes from classic artists every so often (make sure it fits) works very well. Attitude is something really lacking on most classic rockers these days along with variety. That really limits the demo willing to listen.

 

[little1]

No way, no how. Not in this market anytime soon.

Here's why:
Deep cut stations are by design low cume, high TSL stations. (Just as CHR are high cume low TSL'ers) To have a deep cuts station be successful, you'd have to have enough people sampling it, and sticking around for a while to get any ratings. The problem is, look at all the rock stations we already have. And look at how fractured the market is. You've got (running up the dial from memory) 92.5, 93.3, 97.1, 100.3 and 102.1 all playing some form of rock. All male-leaning. And a number of other stations (88.5, 98.7, 102.9) that while they lean female they still draw some males, further diluting the perceived market for a deep cut station (going off the basic assumption that most rock stations skew male, and that a deep cuts station would be similar)

Add in the fact that you're #1 station M25-54 in the market isn't even a music station, and that you've got 2 other non-music stations (ESPN and KLLI) in the top 5-10 of Men numbers, and you're available audience is even smaller. Now throw in teh fact that we've got 4-5 talk stations (KLIF, WBAP, KRLD, KSKY, plus a couple more rimshot-ty types) that generally appeal more to males, and again, you're potential pool is diluted even more.

When you're splitting the audience that many ways, there's just not enough left to support a deep cuts station. It might work as a heritage station somewhere (WXRT comes to mind) but if you're playing deep cuts, you're only going to suck in so many people at a time (because despite what ROver et al think, most people would prefer the hits, or at least familar music, to "unknown" deep cuts).

Not enough people means not enough cume. Even if they stick around, not enough to survive. Susquhana tried it with both Zone and Merge (although they both leaned more AAA than real deep cuts)...It's a reciepe for ratings death...

 

[TrapperJohn]

I seem to remember Q102's brief flirtation with "deep cuts" in the 80's. I kinda dug it, but the experiment didn't last long.

 

[Albert19X]

So what you guys are saying is "After the break... Comfortably Numb by Pink Floyd!"

 

[aaronk]

Yep, here comes "Comfortably Numb" again! I've seen the "same songs" complaint quite a bit on this board, but I think the people who want more variety are either 1) radio people and/or 2) people who are really into music. I fit into both catagories, so radio doesn't satisfy my music cravings. But the ratings prove time and time again that the general public is not into radio or music enough to care about deeper cuts or really long TSL.

 

[johnqdoe]

Yep, here comes "Comfortably Numb" again! I've seen the "same songs" complaint quite a bit on this board, but I think the people who want more variety are either 1) radio people and/or 2) people who are really into music. I fit into both catagories, so radio doesn't satisfy my music cravings. But the ratings prove time and time again that the general public is not into radio or music enough to care about deeper cuts or really long TSL.

Exactly right...and if you've ever answered the phone at a rock station, the calls seem to be in 1 of 2 categories. Either some dude asking for the 4th cut off side 1 of the ___________ album that came out in '74. "I know nobody knows it but me man....but if you just play it once dude, the folks will go NUTS and wanna hear it everyday dude!!!!"...Then the other category are folks asking to hear Skynyrd, Zeppelin, VH, Floyd, etc. etc.

 

[Dndsh237]

There's a third category of caller, the one who demands you not play __________________ ever again becaause of ________________.

 

[TheRover]

Yep, here comes "Comfortably Numb" again! I've seen the "same songs" complaint quite a bit on this board, but I think the people who want more variety are either 1) radio people and/or 2) people who are really into music. I fit into both catagories, so radio doesn't satisfy my music cravings. But the ratings prove time and time again that the general public is not into radio or music enough to care about deeper cuts or really long TSL.

Exactly right...and if you've ever answered the phone at a rock station, the calls seem to be in 1 of 2 categories. Either some dude asking for the 4th cut off side 1 of the ___________ album that came out in '74. "I know nobody knows it but me man....but if you just play it once dude, the folks will go NUTS and wanna hear it everyday dude!!!!"...Then the other category are folks asking to hear Skynyrd, Zeppelin, VH, Floyd, etc. etc.

But.....How can you NOT like a song like "Lazy" from Deep Purple's MACHINE HEAD Album ? ? ?

I would want to be a loyal listener to a station that favored cuts that rocked like "Lazy", over a station that had fans that preferred "Woman From Tokyo" type of songs....

I DO NOT think that I am eclectic for likeing "Lazy". I say, IF you have a Love for great Music, then, you would like "Lazy".

Once the very ordinary John and Jane Doe's started picking up in greta numbers a liking for all of the "Conforatably Numb" songs, of the world.... there was really no turning back.....

To the "lesser" numbers of Music lovers......

The masses have spoken.... and their tastes will be played exclusively.....

Cume is KING and we will do nothing to interfere with that....

Fuddruckers exists.... But it's McDonald's that we're going to insist that you eat...

Not that it's healthy for you.... it's just got the 'right' numbers....

And in the souless business of terr. radio...... NOTHING ELSE MATTERS !

 

[aaronk]

I DO NOT think that I am eclectic for likeing "Lazy". I say, IF you have a Love for great Music, then, you would like "Lazy".

Once the very ordinary John and Jane Doe's started picking up in greta numbers a liking for all of the "Conforatably Numb" songs, of the world.... there was really no turning back.....

It's not necessarily that you are "eclectic" for liking that song; however, most people do not have a love for music the way you or I do. They just like it, and they are quick to press the button when a song comes on that they aren't crazy about. You just have to accept the music test results and try to play only those songs that do really well, so that the average listener doesn't change the station in the short time they are listening. Music lovers are outnumbered by John Does.

 

[TheRover]

I DO NOT think that I am eclectic for likeing "Lazy". I say, IF you have a Love for great Music, then, you would like "Lazy".

Once the very ordinary John and Jane Doe's started picking up in greta numbers a liking for all of the "Conforatably Numb" songs, of the world.... there was really no turning back.....

It's not necessarily that you are "eclectic" for liking that song; however, most people do not have a love for music the way you or I do. They just like it, and they are quick to press the button when a song comes on that they aren't crazy about. You just have to accept the music test results and try to play only those songs that do really well, so that the average listener doesn't change the station in the short time they are listening. Music lovers are outnumbered by John Does.

So, you're saying that Radio has evolved into something that caters to those that "like" music, and no more.

I love the medium of radio, to communally enjoy the music, that I love.

I just will not lower my standards of what I love, to what the masses prefer.

The masses "like" what they like, and there are an over abundance of stations to cater to them.

I feel left out. And not becuase of being eclectic, but beacuse I love something.

...

 

[Dndsh237]

I DO NOT think that I am eclectic for likeing "Lazy". I say, IF you have a Love for great Music, then, you would like "Lazy".

Once the very ordinary John and Jane Doe's started picking up in greta numbers a liking for all of the "Conforatably Numb" songs, of the world.... there was really no turning back.....

It's not necessarily that you are "eclectic" for liking that song; however, most people do not have a love for music the way you or I do. They just like it, and they are quick to press the button when a song comes on that they aren't crazy about. You just have to accept the music test results and try to play only those songs that do really well, so that the average listener doesn't change the station in the short time they are listening. Music lovers are outnumbered by John Does.

So, you're saying that Radio has evolved into something that caters to those that "like" music, and no more.

I love the medium of radio, to communally enjoy the music, that I love.

I just will not lower my standards of what I love, to what the masses prefer.

The masses "like" what they like, and there are an over abundance of stations to cater to them.

I feel left out. And not becuase of being eclectic, but beacuse I love something.

...

The simple fact is, you love something that the masses don't. There's nothing wrong with that. Heck even I would profess to enjoying forms of music the masses don't. That's why I run my own music system at home. I get what I want, 100% of the time, and can make ipod recordings to take with me on the go.

 

[grantchester]

I don't understand why music radio has to be crammed into these little cubby-holes. I wish there was at least one station that played significant music without being limited to some era or genre. I'd love to have an informed announcer choosing things like Sousa and Bederbeck, Goodman and the Dorsey brothers. Crosby and Sinatra, T-bone Walker and Bob Wills. Tom Rush and Gordon Lightfoot. Beatles, Springsteen, Who, and Bubblepuppy. CSNY and Pentangle. The Incredible String Band and Beck. St Martin of the Fields and the Acadamy of Ancient Music. Herbert Von Karajan, Shastakovitch and Nevill Mariner.
Commerical music and the 'charted hit' system have been proven to be corrupt for DECADES. Why are the top hits the only choices? Can't anyone tell the difference between significant music and dreck?

 

[radio_insider]

I don't understand why music radio has to be crammed into these little cubby-holes. I wish there was at least one station that played significant music without being limited to some era or genre. I'd love to have an informed announcer choosing things like Sousa and Bederbeck, Goodman and the Dorsey brothers. Crosby and Sinatra, T-bone Walker and Bob Wills. Tom Rush and Gordon Lightfoot. Beatles, Springsteen, Who, and Bubblepuppy. CSNY and Pentangle. The Incredible String Band and Beck. St Martin of the Fields and the Acadamy of Ancient Music. Herbert Von Karajan, Shastakovitch and Nevill Mariner.
Commerical music and the 'charted hit' system have been proven to be corrupt for DECADES. Why are the top hits the only choices? Can't anyone tell the difference between significant music and dreck?

If you want it, then go sell it. Fact of the matter is, you can't. Radio is a for-profit business. The Bone tried "deed cuts" for a while. And along with everything else they do, it failed. Nobody wants to hear them. If there was a market for "deep cuts" then it would be a format. Go to Sirius, get an IPOD, and rock out. You're never going to hear it on broadcast radio. They're in the business of playing hits.

 

[aaronk]

Commerical music and the 'charted hit' system have been proven to be corrupt for DECADES.

I'm not sure what you mean by "corrupt." Please elaborate.

Why are the top hits the only choices?

Because a radio station needs to make money to survive. Most radio stations with poor ratings make less money. (There might be an exception or two.) It is a proven fact that stations that don't play the top hits lose in the ratings.

Why would someone want to put a deep cuts station on the air knowing those facts?

Can't anyone tell the difference between significant music and dreck?

What one person considers to be "significant" another person probably thinks is "dreck." I used to mobile DJ at high school dances, and just as the dance floor was packed I always had one kid who would come up and say, "Why don't you play some good music?"

What's funny is that the people who would argue for a deep cuts format probably already have a sizeable music collection. Why not just listen to exactly what you want from your own collection? That's what I do.

 

[grantchester]

I'm not sure what you mean by "corrupt." Please elaborate.

In the 1950's, Alan Freed was convicted of tax evasion for not declaring the money record labels paid him to play their songs. In the 60's it became a little more subtle, with promotional benefits for the dee-jays. By the 70's the music directors got the perks. I saw merchandise and trips given to the MD's. Then the consultants took over. I know of one music radio consultant who apologised in R&R to the radio stations he ruined, implying a white powder he was supplied by the record reps might have been the inspiration to add those lame songs. From there it went to the stations, taking cash from the so-called Independent Promotors, who gave 'Promotional Support'. It was in the news a few years ago.

Yes, as you say, radio stations need to make money to survive. My point is, the current system is broken. The young people aren't using radio. Something needs to change. A new paradigm will emerge, if someone is brave enough to try something different. Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results.

But, I understand where you come from. A man I respect once told me, "Barney, 90 percent of all people are not in the top ten percent".

I've seen deep cuts work. I was at a station that had 10,000 albums and no format, when it went to #1 in a top 10 market in 1973. The station had experienced and involved announcers and a supportive music director. They knew their audience and they made it work. It could work again.


g

 

[DFDubya]

My thoughts on topic
Conveyed in haiku poems
Clever and correct

Remember haiku
Poem is 5 - 7 - 5
Syllables in prose

I hate the deep cuts
So glad they don't seem to work
Long live tight playlist

Play the best testers
After all the whole point is
To win the ratings

Joe and Jane Sixpack
Not musically evolved
You expect too much

Playlist tight is right
Play the hits and not the stiffs
Depth can lead to death

Average ipod
500 - Same as stations
Coincidence? Ha!

Now give it a try
Write your own response to this
Haiku and bye now

 

[johnny_letter]

I know you are right
Very disappointing though
All music fans weep

 

[johnqdoe]

I'm not sure what you mean by "corrupt." Please elaborate.

In the 1950's, Alan Freed was convicted of tax evasion for not declaring the money record labels paid him to play their songs. In the 60's it became a little more subtle, with promotional benefits for the dee-jays. By the 70's the music directors got the perks. I saw merchandise and trips given to the MD's. Then the consultants took over. I know of one music radio consultant who apologised in R&R to the radio stations he ruined, implying a white powder he was supplied by the record reps might have been the inspiration to add those lame songs. From there it went to the stations, taking cash from the so-called Independent Promotors, who gave 'Promotional Support'. It was in the news a few years ago.

Yes, as you say, radio stations need to make money to survive. My point is, the current system is broken. The young people aren't using radio. Something needs to change. A new paradigm will emerge, if someone is brave enough to try something different. Einstein defined insanity as doing the same thing over and over, and expecting different results.

But, I understand where you come from. A man I respect once told me, "Barney, 90 percent of all people are not in the top ten percent".

I've seen deep cuts work. I was at a station that had 10,000 albums and no format, when it went to #1 in a top 10 market in 1973. The station had experienced and involved announcers and a supportive music director. They knew their audience and they made it work. It could work again.


g

1973.....times are a LIL BIT different and there is a LIL MORE competition for the music listener these days

 

[Basnya]

I don't understand why music radio has to be crammed into these little cubby-holes. I wish there was at least one station that played significant music without being limited to some era or genre. I'd love to have an informed announcer choosing things like Sousa and Bederbeck, Goodman and the Dorsey brothers. Crosby and Sinatra, T-bone Walker and Bob Wills. Tom Rush and Gordon Lightfoot. Beatles, Springsteen, Who, and Bubblepuppy. CSNY and Pentangle. The Incredible String Band and Beck. St Martin of the Fields and the Acadamy of Ancient Music. Herbert Von Karajan, Shastakovitch and Nevill Mariner.
Commerical music and the 'charted hit' system have been proven to be corrupt for DECADES. Why are the top hits the only choices? Can't anyone tell the difference between significant music and dreck?

There is such a station. Unfortunately it's not in the United States.

http://www.roks.ru/

99% of the programming is in English. Announcements in Russian.