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Could Jack save AM radio?

T

Tim

Gentlemen...I have a theory. No facts...just thinking: could the sudden popularity of Jack-FMs in fact be a giant boost for AM radio?

Before you call out the men in the white coats to haul me away...consider:

*if Jack-FM replaces FM oldies stations all over the country...even those oldies FM's who still have fairly strong FM ratings...could major AM stations decide to pick up the format since they nolonger would have FM oldies competitors?

Example...if a top 10 market FM oldies station cumes 500,000 persons per week. If they change format to Jack on FM, could an AM station pick up, say...200,000 of those oldies listeners on an AM oldies station? Maybe. Why? Because listeners then would nolonger have no FM oldies source.

And, the 200,000 cume for the new AM oldies station would probably be a lot bigger audience than many AM's who run sports networks like ESPN or Fox, or the rapidly dying "adult standards" format or low-rated network talk formats.

Does this make sense to anybody else?

Could Jack-FM's popularity help save a declining AM band?
 
> Gentlemen...I have a theory. No facts...just thinking: could
> the sudden popularity of Jack-FMs in fact be a giant boost
> for AM radio?
>
> Before you call out the men in the white coats to haul me
> away...consider:
>
> *if Jack-FM replaces FM oldies stations all over the
> country...even those oldies FM's who still have fairly
> strong FM ratings...could major AM stations decide to pick
> up the format since they nolonger would have FM oldies
> competitors?
>
> Example...if a top 10 market FM oldies station cumes 500,000
> persons per week. If they change format to Jack on FM, could
> an AM station pick up, say...200,000 of those oldies
> listeners on an AM oldies station? Maybe. Why? Because
> listeners then would nolonger have no FM oldies source.
>
> And, the 200,000 cume for the new AM oldies station would
> probably be a lot bigger audience than many AM's who run
> sports networks like ESPN or Fox, or the rapidly dying
> "adult standards" format or low-rated network talk formats.
>
> Does this make sense to anybody else?
>
> Could Jack-FM's popularity help save a declining AM band?


********************************************************************


An interesting thought. Let's watch Chicago. They just lost their FM Oldies station (WJMK) to "Jack". They currently have a great AM Oldies station (WRLL) that isn't doing much in the ratings so far. Maybe the WJMK switch will help them.
 
If oldies went to AM in New York, it would not be with the familiar personalities. Unless they want to be like Larry Lujack and take a cut in pay, I don't know how an AM oldies station in New York can support anything but a small payroll.

Maybe they would be automated except during drive times.

What cities have AM oldies now?

WRLL Chicago
1190 Dallas
Nashville
WPON Detroit
WPEN Phila.
I think there is one or two in the LA area.

And the two in North Jersey. 1360 and 1540AM?

Who else has AM oldies?

> Gentlemen...I have a theory. No facts...just thinking: could
> the sudden popularity of Jack-FMs in fact be a giant boost
> for AM radio?
>
> Before you call out the men in the white coats to haul me
> away...consider:
>
> *if Jack-FM replaces FM oldies stations all over the
> country...even those oldies FM's who still have fairly
> strong FM ratings...could major AM stations decide to pick
> up the format since they nolonger would have FM oldies
> competitors?
>
> Example...if a top 10 market FM oldies station cumes 500,000
> persons per week. If they change format to Jack on FM, could
> an AM station pick up, say...200,000 of those oldies
> listeners on an AM oldies station? Maybe. Why? Because
> listeners then would nolonger have no FM oldies source.
>
> And, the 200,000 cume for the new AM oldies station would
> probably be a lot bigger audience than many AM's who run
> sports networks like ESPN or Fox, or the rapidly dying
> "adult standards" format or low-rated network talk formats.
>
> Does this make sense to anybody else?
>
> Could Jack-FM's popularity help save a declining AM band?
>
<P ID="signature">______________
[email protected]</P>
 
> What cities have AM oldies now?
>
> WRLL Chicago
> 1190 Dallas
> Nashville
> WPON Detroit
> WPEN Phila.
> I think there is one or two in the LA area.
>
> And the two in North Jersey. 1360 and 1540AM?
>
> Who else has AM oldies?

Of course, WWKB 1520 Buffalo, NY

A few here around New England include:

Worcester, MA - 830 WCRN - Scott Shannon's "True Oldies" after 12 noon.

Ware, MA - 1250 WARE - "Real Oldies" - Live during daytime, then automated.

Beverly, MA - 1570 WNSH - Mostly satellite

Manchester, NH - 1250 WKBR - Satellite? (Recently flipped, haven't heard it yet).

Quincy, MA 1300 WJDA - Salem, MA 1230 WESX - These both run the "Unforgettable Favorites" satellite, which was standards, but has lately drifted to becoming mostly oldies.

There are still a number of small AM oldies stations, mostly at least partially satellite-fed, all over the country.
 
Jack save AM?

No. You will NEVER get that target audience to accept their music on AM.
It sure as heck hasn't worked for the "Real Oldies" stiff of a format.


>
> Could Jack-FM's popularity help save a declining AM band? Does this make sense to anybody else?
>
 
many of you missed my point, I believe

> > Does this make sense to anybody else?
> >
> > Could Jack-FM's popularity help save a declining AM band?

> An interesting thought. Let's watch Chicago. They just
> lost their FM Oldies station (WJMK) to "Jack". They
> currently have a great AM Oldies station (WRLL) that isn't
> doing much in the ratings so far. Maybe the WJMK switch
> will help them.
>


I think many of you missed my point.

With many FM stations DROPPING oldies....if an AM station picked up the format, I think many listeners would come over to AM oldies simply because they no longer have an FM alternative. Makes perfect sense to me. Now...AM stations would have to buy advertising on TV, billboards, direct mail, and/or newspapers to court the displaced FM oldies listeners.

AM oldies stations will fail or do poorly most of the time when there's FM stations playing the same basic music.

Why listen to oldies on AM when an FM playing virtually the same music is on FM? The average listener wouldn't do that. They've been in a 20 or 30-year habit of FM oldies listening. But...take away that format on FM....and put it on AM...if people know the station exists...they'll listen, I'll bet.
 
Re: WKAP

One market where it worked OK is Allentown, Pa. Whe WODE 99.9 went from oldies to classic hits, CC's WKAP 1470 switched from a popular standards format to oldies, with some local, some satellite programming. After an initial ratings drop WKAP is doing well, usually the #2 and sometimes #1 AM in the market. WOGL from Philadelphia does cover some of the market but doesn't rate as well as WKAP.
 
Springfield, OH..WULM


> If oldies went to AM in New York, it would not be with the
> familiar personalities. Unless they want to be like Larry
> Lujack and take a cut in pay, I don't know how an AM oldies
> station in New York can support anything but a small
> payroll.
>
> Maybe they would be automated except during drive times.
>
> What cities have AM oldies now?
>
> WRLL Chicago
> 1190 Dallas
> Nashville
> WPON Detroit
> WPEN Phila.
> I think there is one or two in the LA area.
>
> And the two in North Jersey. 1360 and 1540AM?
>
> Who else has AM oldies?
>
> > Gentlemen...I have a theory. No facts...just thinking:
> could
> > the sudden popularity of Jack-FMs in fact be a giant boost
>
> > for AM radio?
> >
> > Before you call out the men in the white coats to haul me
> > away...consider:
> >
> > *if Jack-FM replaces FM oldies stations all over the
> > country...even those oldies FM's who still have fairly
> > strong FM ratings...could major AM stations decide to pick
>
> > up the format since they nolonger would have FM oldies
> > competitors?
> >
> > Example...if a top 10 market FM oldies station cumes
> 500,000
> > persons per week. If they change format to Jack on FM,
> could
> > an AM station pick up, say...200,000 of those oldies
> > listeners on an AM oldies station? Maybe. Why? Because
> > listeners then would nolonger have no FM oldies source.
> >
> > And, the 200,000 cume for the new AM oldies station would
> > probably be a lot bigger audience than many AM's who run
> > sports networks like ESPN or Fox, or the rapidly dying
> > "adult standards" format or low-rated network talk
> formats.
> >
> > Does this make sense to anybody else?
> >
> > Could Jack-FM's popularity help save a declining AM band?
> >
>
<P ID="signature">______________
"You can't say 'moron' on the radio, you can only say 'moron' on television"...FCC official on an episode of "The Fairly Oddparents" which my son watches</P>
 
Re: WKAP

> One market where it worked OK is Allentown, Pa. Whe WODE
> 99.9 went from oldies to classic hits, CC's WKAP 1470
> switched from a popular standards format to oldies, with
> some local, some satellite programming. After an initial
> ratings drop WKAP is doing well, usually the #2 and
> sometimes #1 AM in the market. WOGL from Philadelphia does
> cover some of the market but doesn't rate as well as WKAP.
>
Add KISN Portland to the list after recently moving from FM and going back to the standard Oldies playlist.
 
I disagree...

> No. You will NEVER get that target audience to accept their
> music on AM.
> It sure as heck hasn't worked for the "Real Oldies" stiff of
> a format.

I disagree, with a caveat or two. I think an AM station can grab a good part of that audience, but they'd have to act extremely quickly--if an FM had just dropped oldies, the AM can't waste time getting the format on the air.

The AM would need a great sound and the juice to transmit it. And the AM's owners would need to start an immediate campaign to promote the change--spending some immediate cash with the local TV and print outlets--and some fan/listener help through word of mouth.

Granted, the AM shouldn't expect instant super billing or too much of a surge in listenership (it is an AM station, after all). But if they can keep the lights on and make a profit...

<P ID="signature">______________
There's nothing else to see here.</P>
 
Re: many of you missed my point, I believe

> [Why listen to oldies on AM when an FM playing virtually the
> same music is on FM? The average listener wouldn't do that.
> They've been in a 20 or 30-year habit of FM oldies
> listening. But...take away that format on FM....and put it
> on AM...if people know the station exists...they'll listen,
> I'll bet.]



The downside to hearing '60s/'70s Oldies on AM is that the music was recorded in stereo, but it would be heard in mono. "Real" Oldies works on AM because most of that music was recorded in mono.
 
Re: many of you missed my point, I believe

> > [Why listen to oldies on AM when an FM playing virtually
> the
> > same music is on FM? The average listener wouldn't do
> that.
> > They've been in a 20 or 30-year habit of FM oldies
> > listening. But...take away that format on FM....and put it
>
> > on AM...if people know the station exists...they'll
> listen,
> > I'll bet.]
>
>
>
> The downside to hearing '60s/'70s Oldies on AM is that the
> music was recorded in stereo, but it would be heard in mono.
> "Real" Oldies works on AM because most of that music was
> recorded in mono.
>
We have no oldies station in Atlanta. I would listen on the AM band if there was one there.
 
> Who else has AM oldies?

Phoenix has KAZG 1440, a 5000-watt daytimer with no jocks (it's automated - and very poorly), few advertisers and almost no listeners.
 
Re: many of you missed my point, I believe

> The downside to hearing '60s/'70s Oldies on AM is that the
> music was recorded in stereo, but it would be heard in mono.
> "Real" Oldies works on AM because most of that music was
> recorded in mono.
>

Something to remember...the main reason AM top 40 stations died was because FMs played the same music, with a lot fewer commercials.

Being in stereo with a better, more-consistent signal was nice...but, that wasn't the main reason most listeners went to FM...it was more music, many fewer commercials.

As it is, the average listener listens to radio on a rather mediocre car radio or cheap boombox or desk radio, so technical quality isn't a big deal to most average people. You can't assume because you love radio and are obsessed with it as a hobby (or profession) that most average people feel the same way you do...because they do not. I think a lot of us forget that.

Also...to those who insist even if oldies formats go off all FM stations that most people won't go to an AM oldies station...I disagree. If your favorite ice cream company goes out of business...you don't stop buying ice cream...even if you really love the ice cream brand you're losing. You find another brand of ice cream. You don't start eating apples or donuts instead.
 
Re: many of you missed my point, I believe

> Also...to those who insist even if oldies formats go off all
> FM stations that most people won't go to an AM oldies
> station...I disagree. If your favorite ice cream company
> goes out of business...you don't stop buying ice
> cream...even if you really love the ice cream brand you're
> losing. You find another brand of ice cream. You don't start
> eating apples or donuts instead.]


****************************************************************


I agree. The problem for commercial radio is that when I couldn't find my brand of ice cream, I went to satellite radio.
 
> Springfield, OH..WULM
>
>
> > If oldies went to AM in New York, it would not be with the
>
> > familiar personalities. Unless they want to be like Larry
>
> > Lujack and take a cut in pay, I don't know how an AM
> oldies
> > station in New York can support anything but a small
> > payroll.
> >
. . . and what kind of source do you have to cite Lujack's ". . . cut in pay . . . ." While he PROBABLY isn't making the same type salary he did 20 years ago, he, also, is doing the majority of the show from his home in New Mexico. Also, and others can correct me if I'm wrong, but he is probably only "live" 2 maybe 3 hours. It seems to me that he his "live" between 7AM and 9AM and everything before or after is recorded and/or from an earlier show.

> > Maybe they would be automated except during drive times.
>
> >
> > What cities have AM oldies now?
> >
> > WRLL Chicago
> > 1190 Dallas
> > Nashville
> > WPON Detroit
> > WPEN Phila.
> > I think there is one or two in the LA area.
> >
> > And the two in North Jersey. 1360 and 1540AM?
> >
> > Who else has AM oldies?
> >
> > > Gentlemen...I have a theory. No facts...just thinking:
> > could
> > > the sudden popularity of Jack-FMs in fact be a giant
> boost
> >
> > > for AM radio?
> > >
> > > Before you call out the men in the white coats to haul
> me
> > > away...consider:
> > >
> > > *if Jack-FM replaces FM oldies stations all over the
> > > country...even those oldies FM's who still have fairly
> > > strong FM ratings...could major AM stations decide to
> pick
> >
> > > up the format since they nolonger would have FM oldies
> > > competitors?
> > >
> > > Example...if a top 10 market FM oldies station cumes
> > 500,000
> > > persons per week. If they change format to Jack on FM,
> > could
> > > an AM station pick up, say...200,000 of those oldies
> > > listeners on an AM oldies station? Maybe. Why? Because
> > > listeners then would nolonger have no FM oldies source.
> > >
> > > And, the 200,000 cume for the new AM oldies station
> would
> > > probably be a lot bigger audience than many AM's who run
>
> > > sports networks like ESPN or Fox, or the rapidly dying
> > > "adult standards" format or low-rated network talk
> > formats.
> > >
> > > Does this make sense to anybody else?
> > >
> > > Could Jack-FM's popularity help save a declining AM
> band?
> > >
> >
>
 
Re: many of you missed my point, I believe

>
> I agree. The problem for commercial radio is that when I
> couldn't find my brand of ice cream, I went to satellite
> radio.


As a radio person/hobbyist....I love the idea of satellite radio.

Every piece of research I've read (several)...so far says satellite radio is reaching less than 1% of the US population. Sure, it's just getting started...and may grow. And, certainly terrestial radio certainly hasn't been a bastian of creativity in the past 20 years. But...I really wonder if satellite radio will ever grow as big as cable has grown -vs- over-the-air TV.

Most average people seem to like short playlists...and when given a rare long-playlist station...those stations rarely do well in the ratings. Personally, I think most current radio is awful....dull...boring...painfully repetitive. But, those of us on this board are by no means typical of 99% of the population.
 
> Does this make sense to anybody else?
>
> Could Jack-FM's popularity help save a declining AM band?
>


First of all, it's a bit premature to call Jack formats "popular"...very few have even been thru one complete book yet, let alone show a winning track record. All we have is hype so far.

Secondly, the audience being targeted by this format has NEVER listened to AM for music. Why on earth would they go there now? As has been noted, so-called "real" oldies on AM was a complete flop, and the fans of that music DID grow up listening to AM.
 
Re: many of you missed my point, I believe

> Why listen to oldies on AM when an FM playing virtually the
> same music is on FM? The average listener wouldn't do that.
> They've been in a 20 or 30-year habit of FM oldies
> listening. But...take away that format on FM....and put it
> on AM...if people know the station exists...they'll listen,
> I'll bet.

Not necessarily if the AM oldies station doesn't do a good job of programming and presentation.

In Boston, there was no FM oldies station from 1984 to 1987. In early 1985, Greater Media used this opportunity to resurrect the heritage call letters WMEX, which was one of Boston's legendary AM Top 40 stations in the late 50's and 60's, and put them on a 5,000 watt AM station playing oldies, with a live professional airstaff of mostly well-known veteran Boston DJ's, emulating the sound of the original station.

This did fairly well for the first year or so, pulling about a 2.5 share, not bad for a mediocre directional AM signal in a major market saturated with 50 kW music FM's. (It was AM Stereo too, but who had receivers?)

However, in 1986, G.M. decided that they could save money on WMEX by slowing letting the jocks go one by one and replacing them with Unistar's "Oldies Channel" satellite, thinking that no one would know the difference. By early 1987, they were "on the bird" at all times besides morning drive (and their "Saturday Night Request Party", hosted live by the legendary Little Walter).

The problem was that, at the time, "The Oldies Channel" was so generic, bland and boring that (with the exception of Walter's show) the Boston audience tuned out. What was originally a 2.5 share when the station was fully live had declined with every slot they turned over to "the bird", and by 1987, they were no longer showing up in the Arbs, which means they went below a 0.1.

There was still no FM oldies station in Boston... yet. Where did the Boston oldies listeners go? Who knows? Maybe some of them went over to WZLX, the new FM Classic Rock station that had recently started. Others may have gone over to the many full-power Boston FM AC's at the time that included a lot of "gold" in their rotations. They certainly weren't listening to the boring "Oldies Channel" on 1150 AM WMEX, the only actual oldies station in the market at the time. It no longer had any ratings showing.

In fall 1987, Infinity went for the Oldies market by flipping failing 50 kW AAA station WMRQ to WODS "Oldies 103.3" with a fully live airstaff (including Little Walter at the time). It was an instant hit, and though it's floundered a bit from time to time over the years, it has usually had (and currently has) very good ratings showings in the Boston market.

You'd have thought this would have been the death knell for oldies WMEX on 1150 AM, running a boring satellite with no ratings. It almost was, but suprisingly, it had a last gasp the following year. In early 1988, the PD convinced G.M. to allow him to dump "The Oldies Channel" and program WMEX live and locally again with DJ's who would work for essentially what the satellite board op's were being paid, and in fact, putting some of the board-ops who had on-air experience at small market or college stations (including myself) on the air live.

We threw out "The Oldies Channel" playlists, cranked up the pace of the on-air presentation (to what it used to be), and went to a great spontaneous jock-picked and listener requested mix of over a thousand(!) oldies from the mid 50's through the very early 70's, sounding a lot like what a "Real Oldies" or "True Oldies" station sounds like nowadays, but all live. (Remember, this was 17 years ago, 50's oldies weren't as "old").

Despite the major-market FM competition of WODS "Oldies 103.3", we managed to pull WMEX's book from the dumper, where it had been with "The Oldies Channel" even before WODS came on, to a 1.1 in the summer of 1988. I know it's not much, and it isn't enough to sustain a station in the long run, but it goes to show that no one listened to a boring birdfed AM oldies station even with no FM oldies station in the market, and that at least some people would listen if we gave them something local and lively that was worth listening to, even with powerful, sucessful FM oldies competition.

I know that the 1.1 share we got with WMEX against WODS that summer of '88 wasn't the "mainstream" of Boston's oldies audience. They were listening to WODS. It was more like a "cult following", who liked the deeper oldies selection we played and the spontaneous way we programmed, knowing that they could get their requests played most anytime.

The very end of the story of WMEX as a Boston oldies station began in late '88 when the PD left, and G.M. brought in a PD from out of town who, in my opinion, didn't understand what we were doing, and what we were up against. He went the usual route of tightly playlisting WMEX with only the usual common big hit oldies. Normally, that would be the sucessful approach to take, but not in that particular situation. He made WMEX sound just like a junior WODS, but with a 5 kW AM signal against their 50 kW FM. It had no chance.

Of course, WMEX then lost the "cult following" that gave them their little 1.1 rating against WODS, because it was no longer offering anything that couldn't be heard on WODS's far superior FM signal. After a year of that, WMEX wasn't showing up in the Arbs at all again, and G.M. abandoned the oldies format.
 
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