Could KABC become KNX's sister station?

[davideduardo]

Thanks for the reference look-up. I believe KHJ lost more to FM than to KFI.

And it also lost at night due to its directional signal which was weak in the San Fernando Valley.

 

[BLA]

I maintain that if KFI and KABC swapped formats (personalities-delivery, etc.), IOW, facilities, KABC would show a big jump in listeners notwithstanding its signal infirmities.

 

[michael hagerty]

Thanks for the reference look-up on the late seventies and 1980. I believe KHJ lost more to FM than to KFI.

Well, by the time KFI went Top 40, KHJ was already weakened. A lot of their 18-34 and older teen males had been switching to KLOS and KMET since 1971.

That left younger teen males, teen girls and 18-34 women. And yeah, when KRTH went from Oldies to a gold-heavy AC (so hit-oriented that Radio & Records listed them as a Top 40), I think that was absolutely a factor.

But I don't think you can make the argument that KFI didn't hurt KHJ.

 

[michael hagerty]

I maintain that if KFI and KABC swapped formats (personalities-delivery, etc.), KABC would show a big jump in listeners notwithstanding its signal infirmities.

As I said a few posts up:


the number of PPM wearers within that radius pretty much guarantees that the best number KABC could get with the best programming possible would not be anything to write home about.

And then when you factor in the demographics of the area under KABC's 15mV/m contour, the appetite for KFI's particular brand of talk radio is pretty low.

Gotta fish where the fish are.

 

[BLA]

Well, by the time KFI went Top 40, KHJ was already weakened. A lot of their 18-34 and older teen males had been switching to KLOS and KMET since 1971.

That left younger teen males, teen girls and 18-34 women. And yeah, when KRTH went from Oldies to a gold-heavy AC (so hit-oriented that Radio & Records listed them as a Top 40), I think that was absolutely a factor.

But I don't think you can make the argument that KFI didn't hurt KHJ.

Oh, I never meant that. Just that signal alone isn't always the be all to end all. If Howard Stern was safe to put on again, AND NO ONE ELSE was doing that show, people would tolerate KABC which has far from the best and not the worst signal.

 

[michael hagerty]

Oh, I never meant to say that. Just that signal alone isn't always the be all to end all.

You also have to remember that KHJ was essentially being nibbled to death from all sides---after more than a decade of really only having KRLA and KGFJ to worry about.

KGBS went 24-7 Top 40 as KTNQ the day after Christmas, 1976. KFI went Top 40 in January of 1977. KMPC was in a phase where it was playing most of the same music as Top 40, as was KIIS AM & FM. KEZY was having another one of its moments (Rick Carroll was programming and had brought Jay Stevens, Steve Lundy and Russ O'Hara with him). KDAY was doing well and L.A.'s always had a lot of crossover between Top 40 and R&B.

KNX-FM was at its peak, drawing serious 18-34 numbers. We've already mentioned KMET, KLOS and KRTH. KIQQ was playing the same music as KHJ.

 

[michael hagerty]

If Howard Stern was safe to put on again, AND NO ONE ELSE was doing that show, people would tolerate KABC which has far from the best and not the worst signal.

You're saying that a guy whose entire L.A. terrestrial radio audience were FM listeners would tolerate KABC's signal to hear him?

That wouldn't have even been true in the 90s.

There's a long list of big stars in L.A. radio who did the same show on different signals to very different results. By this logic Dick Whittington should have had the #1 morning show in L.A. in the 1970s. People in Orange County would have been putting up with static to hear him on KGIL.

Charlie Tuna should have been huge on KROQ-AM.

Again: People don't use radio that way. They didn't 50 years ago. Now?

 

[TomásEstefan]

I once visited classical kfac am transmitter site whose building and twin self standing towers are in the parking lot of a gated apartment complex. Those twin towers today are shared with kabc 790 and spanish kwkw. The apartment complex and towers are off the former santa barbara avenue now martin luther king jr ave. Kabcs twin towers are in a heavy black neighborhood. A solution for kabc is to flip to a black oriented format with mostly black hosts snd content. Thats the available audience for kabc..black angelenos.

The towers are also shared with non-directional 10 kW day 500 W night 1650 KFOX "Radio Seoul"

 

[TomásEstefan]

You also have to remember that KHJ was essentially being nibbled to death from all sides---after more than a decade of really only having KRLA and KGFJ to worry about.

KGBS went 24-7 Top 40 as KTNQ the day after Christmas, 1976. KFI went Top 40 in January of 1977. KMPC was in a phase where it was playing most of the same music as Top 40, as was KIIS AM & FM. KEZY was having another one of its moments (Rick Carroll was programming and had brought Jay Stevens, Steve Lundy and Russ O'Hara with him). KDAY was doing well and L.A.'s always had a lot of crossover between Top 40 and R&B.

KNX-FM was at its peak, drawing serious 18-34 numbers. We've already mentioned KMET, KLOS and KRTH. KIQQ was playing the same music as KHJ.

I think during that period Johnny Magnus was on KIQQ!

 

[ChannelFlipper]

You're saying that a guy whose entire L.A. terrestrial radio audience were FM listeners would tolerate KABC's signal to hear him?

That wouldn't have even been true in the 90s.

There's a long list of big stars in L.A. radio who did the same show on different signals to very different results. By this logic Dick Whittington should have had the #1 morning show in L.A. in the 1970s. People in Orange County would have been putting up with static to hear him on KGIL.

Charlie Tuna should have been huge on KROQ-AM.

Again: People don't use radio that way. They didn't 50 years ago. Now?

I am not sure there is bigger discrepancy between ratings (shares) and reality than those years Howard was on KLSX. He ran from like 3:00 am in the morning to about 10:00 am and people would write down that they were listening to him the entire time. Sure they were. There is no way he would be as successful as he was in a PPM world.

In fact I am pretty sure he is not pulling his weight anymore at SiriusXM. I think that because over the last few years Sirius has gone out of their way to cross-promote Howard on their other channels like they have never done before, to the point of annoyance. That tells me subscribers are not paying for the "premiere content" of his channels. Quite frankly, Howard doesn't have nearly the pull he once had.

 

[michael hagerty]

In fact I am pretty sure he is not pulling his weight anymore at SiriusXM. I think that because over the last few years Sirius has gone out of their way to cross-promote Howard on their other channels like they have never done before, to the point of annoyance. That tells me subscribers are not paying for the "premiere content" of his channels. Quite frankly, Howard doesn't have nearly the pull he once had.

Estimates are that SiriusXM has about 33 million subscribers---10 million who pay for access to Howard. It's in the company's best interest to promote him, because two-thirds of their subscribers (a chunk of whom are new, having purchased a car with a SiriusXM trial) don't have Howard yet, are potential customers and SiriusXM makes more money if they respond.

That said, Howard is 70 years old and has been on SiriusXM for eighteen years. Being on the downward slope of the career bell curve is not surprising at that stage.

 

[radiofan2023]

That said, Howard is 70 years old and has been on SiriusXM for eighteen years. Being on the downward slope of the career bell curve is not surprising at that stage.

Plus he only does three live shows a week now.

 

[david]

You also have to remember that KHJ was essentially being nibbled to death from all sides---after more than a decade of really only having KRLA and KGFJ to worry about.

KGBS went 24-7 Top 40 as KTNQ the day after Christmas, 1976. KFI went Top 40 in January of 1977. KMPC was in a phase where it was playing most of the same music as Top 40, as was KIIS AM & FM. KEZY was having another one of its moments (Rick Carroll was programming and had brought Jay Stevens, Steve Lundy and Russ O'Hara with him). KDAY was doing well and L.A.'s always had a lot of crossover between Top 40 and R&B.

KNX-FM was at its peak, drawing serious 18-34 numbers. We've already mentioned KMET, KLOS and KRTH. KIQQ was playing the same music as KHJ.

That was a great period of LA radio. So much general market targeted music content. Michael references 14 stations that were in the mix for someone scanning the LA/OC radio dial looking to hear current hits (KEZY specifically was terrific in that era). Today there's just KIIS-FM and arguably KBIG. No one else is really playing much of what is currently popular. Sadly, most music formats on air now are niched or oldies (within their targeted genre).

 

[TheBigA]

Sadly, most music formats on air now are niched or oldies (within their targeted genre).

That says more about the music than it does about the radio.

 

[michael hagerty]

That was a great period of LA radio. So much general market targeted music content. Michael references 14 stations that were in the mix for someone scanning the LA/OC radio dial looking to hear current hits (KEZY specifically was terrific in that era). Today there's just KIIS-FM and arguably KBIG. No one else is really playing much of what is currently popular. Sadly, most music formats on air now are niched or oldies (within their targeted genre).

The problem with that was that nobody was really succeeding. Let's take fall of '77, when all of the players were in the game:

1. KBIG (beautiful): 6.8
2. KABC (talk): 5.8
3. KJOI (beautiful): 4.4
4. KNX (news): 4.0
5. KFWB (news): 3.9

Those are the numbers you can get when you don't splinter the audience across more than two stations in the format. Now let's look at all the stations where you could hear Fleetwood Mac, Linda Ronstadt and the Eagles:

6. KNX-FM (soft rock): 3.6
6. KLOS (rock): 3.6
8. KHJ (top 40): 3.5
8. KMPC (ac): 3.5
10. KRTH (ac): 3.4
11. KFI (top 40): 3.1
13. KMET (rock): 2.8
14. KIIS-FM (top 40): 2.7
16. KRLA (top 40/oldies hybrid at that point): 2.5
17. KIQQ (top 40): 2.4
18. KTNQ (top 40): 2.1
19. KPOL-FM (soft rock): 2.0
20. KWST (rock): 1.8
21. KIIS-AM (ac): 1.6

KEZY had a 1.0.



It might have been great for a listener who wanted fifteen places to hear "You Make Loving Fun", but it wasn't really working for any of those stations, and a shakeout was inevitable.

 

[ChannelFlipper]

That says more about the music than it does about the radio.

That is the thing. I never wanted to be the old guy telling younger people how much better things were (like music, especially music) in the old days. I WANT to like the new music.

But so much of it is mindless beats, inane topics, auto-tuned vocals, and almost none of it either truly thoughtful or (the opposite) really FUN. It feels like a chore to listen.

Back then the reason you heard Fleetwood Mac all accross the dial is they made really good music to which people if all ages could relate. For the Rumors album Lindsay Buckingham once said they wanted to make a record with 10 songs, each of which would be worthy of being a single, no filler tracks. Successfully well done Lindsay; that is exactly what it is! There are no Fleetwood Macs any more.

The closest thing is Taylor Swift, and I have posted before that her music seems really tepid and infantile to me. No way can her music stand up to the great female singer/songwriters that I grew up with such as Joni Mitchell, Carly Simon, Carol King, Linda Ronstadt, Roberta Flack, or even Juice Newton among several others. I wish it could, it would be really fun to be on board (except for the whole $800 a ticket thing) and I would have a new generation of artists to know and love, but sadly, no.

 

[ayoda]

A perhaps naive question, but I'll still ask it. KABC used to have a relatively decent signal, I could hear it when I was in NorCal and kept touch with the Dodgers (which was once on KABC). I'm assuming the tower site on La Cienega was sold because of the value of the real estate, requiring them to diplex. Nonetheless, why would a station allow their signal to be downgraded simply because they moved to a different tower site? If I remember correctly, 790 was a 5,000 watt station before, currently they're 6600 watts day / 7900 watts night, more power but less reach. Am I missing something? Please advise, thank you.

 

[TheBigA]

That is the thing. I never wanted to be the old guy telling younger people how much better things were (like music, especially music) in the old days. I WANT to like the new music.

But so much of it is mindless beats, inane topics, auto-tuned vocals, and almost none of it either truly thoughtful or (the opposite) really FUN. It feels like a chore to listen.

My comment wasn't as much about the quality of the music, as it was about the targeting of the music. Prior to the 90s, music was made to get radio airplay. Now, a lot of popular music has elements in it that can't be played on the radio. For example, the Beyonce song Texas Hold 'Em had the 's' word in the first verse. It had 'ass' in the chorus. That song, unedited, can't be played on the radio. But her fans, who are a large group of people, want to hear the unedited version of the song. That causes a problem for radio stations.

That's just one example. Language isn't the only consideration. Music today isn't always made to fit a genre or format. So that makes it difficult to play in formats that are based on genre. There's a lot of genre-bending going on. Top 40 is faced with songs that chart on the Hot 100 that don't fit their format.

 

[michael hagerty]

A perhaps naive question, but I'll still ask it. KABC used to have a relatively decent signal, I could hear it when I was in NorCal and kept touch with the Dodgers (which was once on KABC). I'm assuming the tower site on La Cienega was sold because of the value of the real estate, requiring them to diplex. Nonetheless, why would a station allow their signal to be downgraded simply because they moved to a different tower site? If I remember correctly, 790 was a 5,000 watt station before, currently they're 6600 watts day / 7900 watts night, more power but less reach. Am I missing something? Please advise, thank you.

I was hanging back because I was sure someone with more engineering knowledge would pop in, but:

The first thing to remember is that if you're in Northern California and hearing KABC, that's skywave and possibly some skip. It's not a relevant measurement of the local signal.

Next is that, even before KABC moved its towers, there were issues:

When KABC expanded its La Cienega complex, it paved over the land surrounding the towers. That meant an inability for the ground to get moisture and no easy access to the radials buried in the ground. Prior to that, it was not uncommon for a big-city, big-budget station like KABC to maintain its ground system, digging up and replacing the radials as they corroded.

From the 70s onward, there was increasing interference from fluorescent lighting, consumer devices and more. It had the effect of raising the noise floor for AM radio---which meant the signal was noisier than before, with the greatest impacts the further you got from the towers. In effect, it tightened the radius of the listenable signal---and it was progressive over the years.

As more and more of these devices came in use, the area of the signal as a whole, but critically of the strongest level of the signal (which, really, is all a typical listener will accept) continued to shrink.

And then, as you're aware, there have been massive demographic changes within the area that KABC's strongest signal now covers---it's an audience that is not a prime target for English-language talk radio.

And then the tower move. And again, someone with a better understanding of engineering can explain what the move meant on top of all that.

 

[davideduardo]

That says more about the music than it does about the radio.

In fact, we now have two urban hit based stations and three Regional Mexican based current based stations. And the country station is pretty much current hit based, too. So we have as many or more current based stations now.