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Could WIND Go All-Sports?

DToTheJ said:
Well, if they don't right the ship at 105.9, they're destined to make some kind of change - the PD himself has even said as much not too long ago.

While simulcasting The Score on 105.9 is an option, I'd suspect that CBS would lean more toward simulcasting all-news WBBM, in an attempt to retain their spot atop the Chicago PPM's. (Look at how successful the KCBS-AM/FM simulcast is in Market No. 4.) But that's a different topic for a different thread...

CBS Radio didn't move their news stations WBZ and KDKA to the FMs in Boston and Pittsburgh. And both stations are still performing well in the ratings. Out west seems to where CBS put their News stations on FM in San Fran and then Las Veagas.
 
Ken said:
DToTheJ said:
Well, if they don't right the ship at 105.9, they're destined to make some kind of change - the PD himself has even said as much not too long ago.

While simulcasting The Score on 105.9 is an option, I'd suspect that CBS would lean more toward simulcasting all-news WBBM, in an attempt to retain their spot atop the Chicago PPM's. (Look at how successful the KCBS-AM/FM simulcast is in Market No. 4.) But that's a different topic for a different thread...

CBS Radio didn't move their news stations WBZ and KDKA to the FMs in Boston and Pittsburgh. And both stations are still performing well in the ratings. Out west seems to where CBS put their News stations on FM in San Fran and then Las Veagas.

WBZ is news/talk - news during the day and talk for evenings and overnights. KDKA is talk. Neither has quite the same format as WBBM, KNX, KCBS and WCBS. CBS has also installed a news clock format on KRLD, but it's brand new and I am not clear as to whether they're using the same format model as WBZ (a hybrid) or a pure news operation like the others.

In the case of Chicago, putting WBBM on FM more fits the template of what CBS has done elsewhere. Basically, a news operation is expensive to run and putting on FM is a great way to enhance their already robust revenue. That's what Bonneville did with WTOP (though WTOP had signal issues too).

This is why I posted earlier and still maintain that 105.9 will end up simulcasting 780 once they dump Fresh. Which is inevitable because the ratings are not great.
 
Ken said:
CBS Radio didn't move their news stations WBZ and KDKA to the FMs in Boston and Pittsburgh. And both stations are still performing well in the ratings. Out west seems to where CBS put their News stations on FM in San Fran and then Las Veagas.

WBZ and KDKA, like WBBM, are 50 kW ND stations. KCBS is not (740 is a Canadian clear channel, so KCBS must protect any Canadian stations on that frequency. But the day will come when even the old 1-A stations like WBBM and KDKA will have to at least simulcast on FM or die. Even the old-line blowtorches aren't immune to an aging AM demographic.

But now that streaming is standard procedure and in-car internet access is a reality, at least if you have 3G or 4G service with your cellphone (I listen to The Score every day on my Droid, and I'm in Phoenix), having 50 kW will become an unnecessary relic of the past. 5 or 10 years from now, it may not even be necessary, or desirable in a business sense, to spend all that money powering a 50,000 watt AM transmitter when most listening is on FM or online. That sure is a nice, valuable chunk of real estate that WBBM's tower sits on, over there by I-290 and the Elgin-O'Hare Expy. ;D
 
Tim L said:
Salem's WHKW-1220 (The former WKNR/WGAR) does carry St. Ignatius HS Football and Cleveland State Basketball..Thy'll also carry 40 of the AHL Lake Erie Monsters 80 games this season..They'll take sports if it adds to the bottom line, but they wont flip a station to Sports..

Oh, sure...they'll run it if they make a buck off of it. They're probably even getting some money from some of these teams for clearance. (Remember, Salem is the same outfit that told Dave Ramsey he had to pay to stay on their stations, and he's gone from them now...)

But you're right, they won't change an entire station to sports. I'm surprised they hung onto WKNR as long as they did.
 
WESN's 1050 nulled-to-the-south signal might not be as good as WFAN's 660 non-directional signal. But the parts of the market that can't hear WESN are pretty far from NYC. It is still a 50,000 watt station, well-heard in the five boroughs and all the suburbs within 40 or 50 miles. 1050 was a top ten station for a while when it was WHN, doing very pop-leaining country music in the 70s and 80s. It has the same signal today.

And no, Salem won't likely switch WIND to sports if the conservative talk format is getting at least a minimum of ratings. If I'm not mistaken, Phoenix is the only top 25 market where a Salem conservative talker gets around a one share. All the rest are below a 1.0...NYC, LA, Dallas, Houston, Chicago, etc. Many are in the .3 and .4 range. Just as long as they break even, Salem keeps them because they're "doing God's work" making this a more conservative country. Salem finally gave up in Seattle and San Francisco (going with Business/Money programming) and in Miami and Boston (going Spanish Religion). But those stations were doing worse that WIND, sometimes not even showing in the ratings at all, even with Dr. Laura or Sean Hannity added to the Salem line up.

I'm pretty sure Salem will try to keep WIND on their conservative talk network, pushing the evangelical political agenda... anti-abortion, anti-gay rights, pro-tradtional family values, etc. It might not sound like an evangelical religion station since two of the hosts (Medved & Praeger) are Jewish and two (Bennett and Gallagher) are Catholic. But that's really what it is.


Gregg
[email protected]
 
Definitely don't see WIND-AM going to all sports. The consensus that Salem does not put too much emphasis on ratings has been speculated before, and in fact, may actually be true. I'm not familiar with Salems other news/talk stations around the country, but when I think of WIND in Chicago, I think of lost opportunity.

Local programming in Chicago has always excelled over syndication. If smart people were running Salem (meaning, willing to explore other potential revenue opportunities), they would be willing to give WIND more flexibility as far as programming goes. Already WIND has some flexibility, as they are allowed to air a local morning show, while airing Glenn Beck in place of Michael Gallagher and airing Dennis Miller's replay in-place of Dennis Prager, and also airing two hours of live Michael Savage in place of Hewitt (he air's on a two hour delay).

Why not better utilize that flexibility and bring in one or two more local talents? WIND was beyond stupid to not hire Jerry Agar when he was available after his exit from WLS-AM. While Agar is working now full-time for CFRB (Newstalk 1010)/Toronto, I haven't heard that he is actually under any contract - his family is still in Chicago and I'd bet he'd be more than willing to come home and do a midday show or afternoon show for WIND if given the opportunity. WIND is nuts to not explore that option.
 
KeithE4 said:
WBZ and KDKA, like WBBM, are 50 kW ND stations. KCBS is not (740 is a Canadian clear channel, so KCBS must protect any Canadian stations on that frequency. But the day will come when even the old 1-A stations like WBBM and KDKA will have to at least simulcast on FM or die. Even the old-line blowtorches aren't immune to an aging AM demographic.

But now that streaming is standard procedure and in-car internet access is a reality, at least if you have 3G or 4G service with your cellphone (I listen to The Score every day on my Droid, and I'm in Phoenix), having 50 kW will become an unnecessary relic of the past. 5 or 10 years from now, it may not even be necessary, or desirable in a business sense, to spend all that money powering a 50,000 watt AM transmitter when most listening is on FM or online. That sure is a nice, valuable chunk of real estate that WBBM's tower sits on, over there by I-290 and the Elgin-O'Hare Expy. ;D

KCBS still has a strong signal over the region at 740; it's non-directional signal mainly protects CFZM Toronto. The reason was never that they don't have an ND former clear, the reason was to lower the demos. And it's worked. I tend to agree that, eventually, all of the all-news AMers will need to have an FM presence to remain relevant. Again, it's an expensive format to run and it cannot tolerate being an also-ran in the ratings (unlike a mainly syndicated talker, for example).

Despite this, the AM properties are still very valuable and will be for a long time to come. I don;'t see any of those tx sites being sold any time soon. Not even that site near I-290 and the Elgin-O'Hare Expy. (the amazing freeway which goes to neither place in its name!).

As for the smart phone concept, agreed as well! This afternoon, I intend to try streaming Club Classics from London's Heart FM via my iPhone using a double ended plug into the aux jack in my car stereo. Figured it would be an interesting listen for the PM commute!
 
BRNout said:
Despite this, the AM properties are still very valuable and will be for a long time to come. I don;'t see any of those tx sites being sold any time soon.

Not anytime soon, but maybe in another 20 years. I really do think that 50,000 watt AM radio stations will be completely obsolete by then. West- and northwest-suburban land (like the WSCR, WGN, and WBBM tower sites) is too valuable, and electricity is too expensive (and will probably be even higher then) to keep them going too much longer.

Not even that site near I-290 and the Elgin-O'Hare Expy. (the amazing freeway which goes to neither place in its name!).

Nor does it have a number.
 
radioguy39nj said:
DToTheJ said:
Well, if they don't right the ship at 105.9, they're destined to make some kind of change - the PD himself has even said as much not too long ago.

While simulcasting The Score on 105.9 is an option, I'd suspect that CBS would lean more toward simulcasting all-news WBBM, in an attempt to retain their spot atop the Chicago PPM's. (Look at how successful the KCBS-AM/FM simulcast is in Market No. 4.) But that's a different topic for a different thread...

Good point! A few issues with a Newsradio 780 simulcast on 105.9 FM would be call letters since there is a WBBM-FM (B-96.3), a successful CHR icon. Also, WBBM runs "When Radio Was" during overnight hours. Would they continue that? Does it really save so much $$$$? What about Bears' games? NFL teams only air once a week, so it's not that big an issue. Would the games simulcast on AM and FM or air on AM only while news coverage continues on FM?

If I'm not mistaken, WBBM Newsradio currently airs on 104.3 HD-2. 104.3 JACK-FM isn't doing well either. :)

KCBS-AM's counterpart on the FM dial still uses the KFRC-FM callsign. Simply because the KCBS-FM callsign is used on the Jack FM outlet in Los Angeles. Didn't stop CBS from pulling the trigger on the simulcast. After all, a hushed "WCFS-and-WCFS-HD-1 Chicago" ID can be used right after a commercial break at either :57 past or :05 past the hour.

The NFL would welcome an FM flagship for the Bears, no doubt about it. Most NFL teams (Buffalo, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, Houston, Baltimore, New England, San Francisco, Detroit) have FM signals as the true flagship anyway, in some cases alongside an AM sister station or simulcast.
 
KeithE4 said:
BRNout said:
Despite this, the AM properties are still very valuable and will be for a long time to come. I don;'t see any of those tx sites being sold any time soon.

Not anytime soon, but maybe in another 20 years. I really do think that 50,000 watt AM radio stations will be completely obsolete by then. West- and northwest-suburban land (like the WSCR, WGN, and WBBM tower sites) is too valuable, and electricity is too expensive (and will probably be even higher then) to keep them going too much longer.


The concept of the 50,000 clear channel would very well be the last thing to go. I can see small graveyard AM signals or rimshots that have struggled for years to stay solvent going silent for good. Obviously, national defense purposes or a major disaster are the big reason why the clear channel service are still very valuable... for now, of course. If those purposes are redefined to use the FM dial instead, all bets are off.

(Yes, Montreal saw BOTH of their 50,000 watt clear channel stations go away for good back in February, but that was due to poor programming and an urgency of their owner to leave Quebec for good. Only thanks to NARBA do those clear channel allotments remain in perpetuity, even if a station never uses that frequency ever again.)

A better example of this is the Washington, DC AM market, where all but two or three AM signals in that market have no ratings and either all-syndicated, brokered or ethnic formats. Aside from devotees of the AM radio dial over there, no one knows that those stations remotely exist. And even out of the two good AM signals, one (sports WTEM) is nowhere close to reaching the top 15, and the other (talk WMAL) is in the top 10, but is all-syndicated from noon until 5AM. The most powerful AM signal, once home to once top-rated all-news WTOP, now has a niche format in government-related news and draws minuscule ratings.

WTOP managed to skyrocket in all of the youth demos after leaving the AM dial for good in 2006. Once trading spots for #1 or #2 at AM/1500, they've been a solid #1 ever since then. That was what started the AM station-moving-to-FM or simulcast-with-a-rimshot trend in the first place.
 
Nathan Obral said:
radioguy39nj said:
DToTheJ said:
Well, if they don't right the ship at 105.9, they're destined to make some kind of change - the PD himself has even said as much not too long ago.

While simulcasting The Score on 105.9 is an option, I'd suspect that CBS would lean more toward simulcasting all-news WBBM, in an attempt to retain their spot atop the Chicago PPM's. (Look at how successful the KCBS-AM/FM simulcast is in Market No. 4.) But that's a different topic for a different thread...

Good point! A few issues with a Newsradio 780 simulcast on 105.9 FM would be call letters since there is a WBBM-FM (B-96.3), a successful CHR icon. Also, WBBM runs "When Radio Was" during overnight hours. Would they continue that? Does it really save so much $$$$? What about Bears' games? NFL teams only air once a week, so it's not that big an issue. Would the games simulcast on AM and FM or air on AM only while news coverage continues on FM?

If I'm not mistaken, WBBM Newsradio currently airs on 104.3 HD-2. 104.3 JACK-FM isn't doing well either. :)

KCBS-AM's counterpart on the FM dial still uses the KFRC-FM callsign. Simply because the KCBS-FM callsign is used on the Jack FM outlet in Los Angeles. Didn't stop CBS from pulling the trigger on the simulcast. After all, a hushed "WCFS-and-WCFS-HD-1 Chicago" ID can be used right after a commercial break at either :57 past or :05 past the hour.

The NFL would welcome an FM flagship for the Bears, no doubt about it. Most NFL teams (Buffalo, Cleveland, Cincinnati, Indianapolis, Pittsburgh, Houston, Baltimore, New England, San Francisco, Detroit) have FM signals as the true flagship anyway, in some cases alongside an AM sister station or simulcast.

Add Miami, Philadelphia, Arizona, Seattle, St Louis, San Diego, Dallas and Oakland to that list of NFL FM flags or AM/FM simulcasts. If the NFL would welcome an FM flagship for the Bears in market #3, they'd be even happier to have the Jets on FM in market #1. The Giants and Jets have only used FM as a way to deal with baseball conflicts when WFAN had the rights to both teams. Conflict games were placed on 92.3 FM when it was K-Rock and later FREE-FM.

The call letter issue in Chicago probably isn't a major issue to an all-news simulcast of WBBM Newsradio. No one's going to confuse CHR B-96.3 with all-news. Branding might be a bit tricky. It might be "WBBM Newsradio 780 AM & 105.9 FM". KCBS' mikes show 740 AM on one side and 106.9 FM on the other. :)
 
Nathan Obral said:
A better example of this is the Washington, DC AM market, where all but two or three AM signals in that market have no ratings and either all-syndicated, brokered or ethnic formats. Aside from devotees of the AM radio dial over there, no one knows that those stations remotely exist. And even out of the two good AM signals, one (sports WTEM) is nowhere close to reaching the top 15, and the other (talk WMAL) is in the top 10, but is all-syndicated from noon until 5AM. The most powerful AM signal, once home to once top-rated all-news WTOP, now has a niche format in government-related news and draws minuscule ratings.

WTOP managed to skyrocket in all of the youth demos after leaving the AM dial for good in 2006. Once trading spots for #1 or #2 at AM/1500, they've been a solid #1 ever since then. That was what started the AM station-moving-to-FM or simulcast-with-a-rimshot trend in the first place.

The Washington DC market is actually not a very good example to use. That's because ground conductivity is notoriously bad in that region, rendering even 50 kw WTOP (which is at a higher frequency to begin with) hard to listen to in many DC suburbs. If you've spent any time in the Washington area, you know that the suburbs now sprawl well into (and beyond) Loudoun, Stafford and Farquier Counties in VA and that they spill out north and east (respectively) into the Frederick and Annapolis areas in MD. With the horrible ground conductivity in that area, WTOP has long underperformed its potential - its signal is not even "local grade" as close in as Reston or Chantilly, VA.

They initially tried to address this issue using other AM signals (particularly 820 in Frederick, MD) and a small class A rimshot FM to fill in the gaps. That worked to an extent, but again did not deliver as much audience as the format is capable of delivering. Finally, Bonneville blew up 103.5 and installed the WTOP news format on a full market stick and that did the trick.

To compare that situation with what is happening in Chicago does not really fit. Even WIND gets out better around Chicago than WTOP's former home at 1500 did around the DC area. WSCR, WGN, WBBM and even WLS are stronger still. None have critical signal issues that WTOP had. And, Chicago's various non-directional AMs remain quite successful.

Also, on a different note, the NFL has proven itself to be a great fit for classic rock and active rock formats that appeal to young males. Given that the games are no more than once a week and that they attract much the same audience as the likes of NFL team flagships like KCFX Kansas City, KIOZ San Diego, WDVE Pittsburgh, KITS San Francisco (for the Raiders, though the more locally popular '9ers are on 1050 am), etc. The Pats used to be on rocker WBCN (former flagship of the "Patriots Rock Radio Network"), but were moved when CBS Radio blew up that station and introduced sports talker WBZ-FM. For the NFL, it's all about positioning and you mainly see games on FM installed on rockers and almost never on urban contemporary or CHR formatted stations. This is not a very good indicator to use when talking about the relative health of AM radio for this reason.

Now, the movement of talk to FM is a different story - but again, this is still usually happening in markets where the format was not on a 50 kw blowtorch. Given the still strong ratings of solid-signal AMs in places like New York, Detroit, Boston, San Francisco, Philly, and yes Chicago - I'd say that the AM properties with excellent 50 kw signals that cover their respective markets have quite a bit more than 20 years of viability left in them. Weaker signals - especially graveyarders and what I like to call the FCC shoehorns - are indeed more likely to go away within 20 years. They just aren't viable.

AM would do best with a few well-spaced strong signals. The overcrowding of the band with tons of weak, limited appeal signals is creating a "low tide" for the entire band that is gradually sinking all ships (metaphorically speaking). Yet the FCC is still licensing an ever increasing number of signals on the AM band. If the band dies, it is at their hands - and not merely because of the progression of technology.
 
1500's biggest signal problem is not necessarily the poor ground conductivity, though that certainly is a problem.

The former WTOP(AM)'s biggest signal problem is that is is highly directional to the east/northeast...away from the fast growing suburbs of far-outer Northern Virginia. You generally have no problem with 1500 in the Baltimore area, but you can't pick it up with any help, even, in Manassas, Loudoun County, et al., and those areas have grown like weeds.

Of course, you can blame KSTP/1500 for much of that.

At 50 kW without being directional, they could have limped along for a while...but eventually they would have still made the signal change to 103.5 even then.
 
It may not flip to sport, but WIND is home to the granddaddy of all sports radio. If one remembers, back in the late 60s early 70s, Bill Berg hosted the first all sports show on WIND during afternoon drive. It has been many years, but it seems like it was on from 4pm to 7pm.
 
KlunkLetter said:
It may not flip to sport, but WIND is home to the granddaddy of all sports radio. If one remembers, back in the late 60s early 70s, Bill Berg hosted the first all sports show on WIND during afternoon drive. It has been many years, but it seems like it was on from 4pm to 7pm.

Yes, I remember Bill Berg's sports show very well. There was another sports show on WBBM in the middle 60s but I can't remember the name of the host. He did go on to become the Miami Dolphins
play by play announcer later.
Anybody remember the name?
 
OhioMediaWatch said:
1500's biggest signal problem is not necessarily the poor ground conductivity, though that certainly is a problem.

The former WTOP(AM)'s biggest signal problem is that is is highly directional to the east/northeast...away from the fast growing suburbs of far-outer Northern Virginia. You generally have no problem with 1500 in the Baltimore area,

I've picked up that 1500 in Camden County, New Jersey in daylight. Great signal...just not for the market it's actually in.
 
radioman148 said:
KlunkLetter said:
It may not flip to sport, but WIND is home to the granddaddy of all sports radio. If one remembers, back in the late 60s early 70s, Bill Berg hosted the first all sports show on WIND during afternoon drive. It has been many years, but it seems like it was on from 4pm to 7pm.

Yes, I remember Bill Berg's sports show very well. There was another sports show on WBBM in the middle 60s but I can't remember the name of the host. He did go on to become the Miami Dolphins
play by play announcer later.
Anybody remember the name?

I think it was Rick Weaver. :)
 
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