Country Format Billing

[Weiserguy]

They'd probably have to go out quite a distance to find an open frequency

I suspect there's a bigger question, and that's just how self-serving the idea that "experiments indicating no significant increase in interference to adjacent frequencies would result" from upping the power of existing HD signals, which are already showhorned in between existing signals. The more power they pump into the sideband, the further out that sideband travels, and the greater the chance that it will interfere with other, pre-existing, adjacent channel stations.

It's been a while since I studied physics, but I doubt the laws have changed all that much since then.

 

[AceBiscuits]

The number of listeners to 660 in daytime has to be virtually nil.

660 is used in plenty of areas day and night (mostly north and west of the city) where 101.9 does not come in well.

HD Radio, despite being tied to an FM frequency, is a better alternative, but there is obvious logistical hurdles. Also let us not forget that there are options other than traditional "radio", with streaming and satellite radio.

 

[MarkW]

Country does not belong on a Manhattan signal. It would be worthy of consideration, though, for a smaller station focused on serving northern Jersey. Problem is - very few locally based FM signals are available there. I personally cannot see WDHA dumping its format anytime soon, nor the AC station over there (whose dial position and call letters escape me).

Thunder 106 seems to do OK in Monmouth - Ocean.

 

[Marcos_C]

Country does not belong on a Manhattan signal. It would be worthy of consideration, though, for a smaller station focused on serving northern Jersey. Problem is - very few locally based FM signals are available there. I personally cannot see WDHA dumping its format anytime soon, nor the AC station over there (whose dial position and call letters escape me).

I guess you're referring to WMGQ (Magic 98.3) in New Brunswick.

 

[Barry]

WXBK 94.7, broadcasting out of northern NJ, is not a "Manhattan signal."

 

[DOB]

I think it would make better business sense to hold a Lilith Fair concert in Tehran than to put a Country format on in New York or San Francisco.
Understand the hate before you factor rate.

 

[SCMcKinney]

Programming country music on a commercial FM after the documented results from 94.7 would not be very forward looking either.

But since you brought up "business strategy," what would be your approach to attracting money to the country format in NYC?



That's an interesting question. The documented evidence is that people under 40 are listening to lots of things other than (or in addition to) FM, but most are not on broadcast radio. There is Sirius and all of the streaming options.

>>>what would be your approach to attracting money to the country format in NYC<<<
This is where my lack of knowledge of the economics of the radio business comes into play. For this rube, a station that bills a Million dollars I would have thought was doing something OK. As I have learned, that is nowhere near enough for an FM in NYC. But would it (or a part thereof) have been enough for an AM in NYC? A move from FM to AM is going to lose some listeners, but would there be overall be more on ears 660 in the daytime than there are simulcasting Sports?

Someone posted that 660 gets a lot of people on the fringes of the market - How many, and do they contribute to the billing capability of WFAN? A similar situation existed in Jacksonville Florida with WOKV AM/FM. The AM was dropped, and I don't think the FM suffered any loss of listeners, and I bet, any loss of billing.

The experimentation aspect of a daytime country 660 I suggested would have been to provide modern day real world evidence as to whether a demo friendly program could work on AM. If it did, that could open up possibilities for programming on other non-productive stations in a group owner's portfolio. If it didn't, that provides actual support for the conventional wisdom being correct (and would make me pipe down).

The WNSH situation, in my view, was a rare opportunity to try something with little risk. If it didn't work, WFAN AM/FM 24/7 simply would resume. The experiment would not be trying to prove that music could work on AM - that horse I do think is dead. The experiment simply involved music and whether WNSH's audience could be made to flip the switch. If it did work in this unique NYC situation (providing an antidote to no Country station in market 1), then the possibility of coming up with demo-friendly spoken word programming on unproductive AM's (and desirable billing) could only be a positive.

There would still be problems to hurdle - I suspect that the group owners are for the most part unable to invest in any new programming ideas. There would have to be tough choices made - does the comfortable syndicated right wing talk or syndicated sportstalk on AM really make any money? If not, why are they doing it? - those stations across the country could be the places to try demo friendly spoken word.

As for HD, I think that is really just a shiny sideshow that with a few exceptions (sportstalk in Indianapolis) doesn't really contribute to the bottom line. Am I correct that WXBK HD2 is jockless and ad-free/revenue-free? If so, why is Audacy spending any time with it?

 

[Barry]

Am I correct that WXBK HD2 is jockless and ad-free/revenue-free? If so, why is Audacy spending any time with it?

New York's Country on 94.7 HD2 has one local personality, and also carries 2 national hosted Audacy Country shows, for a total of 13 hours a day with personalities.
It has one long-term sponsor. It also carries some additional ads.
I don't know what revenue it produces. But cost should be minimal. And it clears the 2 national Country shows in the New York metro.
That seems to be a decent start.

 

[TheBigA]

As for HD, I think that is really just a shiny sideshow that with a few exceptions (sportstalk in Indianapolis) doesn't really contribute to the bottom line.

That's what they said about FM in the 1950s and 60s. But once popular formats were available on FM, listeners abandoned popular music stations on AM for the same content on FM. The reason was audio quality. People were willing to buy radios that included FM or even buy FM converters for their cars in order to hear the music they loved in high fidelity stereo. That's the same situation that exists for HD radio today. People just need a reason to try it out. You keep talking about an experiment, and that's what HD is.

As I have said several times already, Audacy has made it's decision here. They are not going to blow up a very profitable sports combo to play country music that doesn't make money. There is no profit motivation. If Audacy was going to put ANYTHING on 660, it would be more sports. That's the only format they know can make money.

 

[wadio]

I'm a quarter century past 40 and I won't listen to music on AM. My alternatives for music I can't get on FM here are SiriusXM and streaming.

Bingo! I'll bet you speak for lots of music fans. The Country-OTA ship has sailed.

 

[davideduardo]

>>>what would be your approach to attracting money to the country format in NYC<<<
This is where my lack of knowledge of the economics of the radio business comes into play. For this rube, a station that bills a Million dollars I would have thought was doing something OK. As I have learned, that is nowhere near enough for an FM in NYC. But would it (or a part thereof) have been enough for an AM in NYC? A move from FM to AM is going to lose some listeners, but would there be overall be more on ears 660 in the daytime than there are simulcasting Sports?

Just look at the expenses in a major market. A manager will be well into the six figures. Sales expenses take the first roughly 20% of income, between station sellers and agency commissions. Rents and electrical and many other things in the NYC metro are very high.

Someone posted that 660 gets a lot of people on the fringes of the market - How many, and do they contribute to the billing capability of WFAN? A similar situation existed in Jacksonville Florida with WOKV AM/FM. The AM was dropped, and I don't think the FM suffered any loss of listeners, and I bet, any loss of billing.

Only the station likely gets the numbers for simulcast partners and then only if they buy a separate special report.

The NYC metro extends to the east all the way beyond Sag Harbor, and to the west to Morris County and north to Putnam County. The Class B FM from Manhattan do not make all that distance well. In JAX, the 100 kw FMs cover the whole market.

The experimentation aspect of a daytime country 660 I suggested would have been to provide modern day real world evidence as to whether a demo friendly program could work on AM. If it did, that could open up possibilities for programming on other non-productive stations in a group owner's portfolio. If it didn't, that provides actual support for the conventional wisdom being correct (and would make me pipe down).

Country is a strong 25-44 format today. Before they will listen to AM, they will go to streaming. They will not listen to a music AM. The industry got that message in the 80's, when the only music AMs that made it through that decade were Music of Your Life type stations.

There would still be problems to hurdle - I suspect that the group owners are for the most part unable to invest in any new programming ideas. There would have to be tough choices made - does the comfortable syndicated right wing talk or syndicated sportstalk on AM really make any money? If not, why are they doing it? - those stations across the country could be the places to try demo friendly spoken word.

If such a format existed, it would have been done by now... and, like conservative talk, likely would have been led by a talent who changed the formula, one shift at a time.

As for HD, I think that is really just a shiny sideshow that with a few exceptions (sportstalk in Indianapolis) doesn't really contribute to the bottom line. Am I correct that WXBK HD2 is jockless and ad-free/revenue-free? If so, why is Audacy spending any time with it?

Because it costs very little and one can sometimes take a bit of a share off a competitor with it.

Indianapolis uses the HD channel to be able to operate translators for the format. The translators get the audience.

 

[MarkW]

Sports teams like areal range from their radio partnerships in many instances. By pairing 660 with 101.9 (many people will never, ever bother with AM in this day & age), WFAN and Audacy have a competitive advantage.

 

[MVB13]

They'd probably have to go out quite a distance to find an open frequency

There are very few open frequencies in NYC itself that won't cause interference with other stations. 104.7 and 106.3 are out of the question as WSPK is on 104.7 and it would cause interference and Thunder 106.3 would get interference too. Would 94.3, 95.9, 102.3, 103.1, 105.5, or 107.9 work? There are translators I know for 102.3, 103.1, 105.5, and 107.9 near the city. What's the minimum distance away translators can be away from each other? I don't think country would go on a translator in NYC maybe in Morristown NJ in the market.

 

[SCMcKinney]

That's what they said about FM in the 1950s and 60s. But once popular formats were available on FM, listeners abandoned popular music stations on AM for the same content on FM. The reason was audio quality. People were willing to buy radios that included FM or even buy FM converters for their cars in order to hear the music they loved in high fidelity stereo. That's the same situation that exists for HD radio today. People just need a reason to try it out. You keep talking about an experiment, and that's what HD is.

As I have said several times already, Audacy has made it's decision here. They are not going to blow up a very profitable sports combo to play country music that doesn't make money. There is no profit motivation. If Audacy was going to put ANYTHING on 660, it would be more sports. That's the only format they know can make money.

>>>That's what they said about FM in the 1950s and 60s. But once popular formats were available on FM, listeners abandoned popular music stations on AM for the same content on FM. <<<
HD is, then, I guess the real forward business plan for the broadcast industry. But, wow, what a wait I would bet this is going to be. Although I have heard of HD being available in some newer cars, I have never seen one. Unlike the 1960's, there all the other internet options for audio entertainment, which brings the validity of HD as a horse to ride into question.

WXBK HD2 appears to be getting a .3 in the 6+ rating. Getting back to the Original Poster's question about Country Music Billing, can that modicum of advertising that another post reported on the HD2 channel be on par with what was done on 94.7? If not, even with what are suggested to be reduced expenses with HD operation, can Audacy afford to indulge in semi-live, quality Country HD for very long, assuming that FM needs to be the main focus?

 

[TheBigA]

can Audacy afford to indulge in semi-live, quality Country HD for very long, assuming that FM needs to be the main focus?

That's up to the audience. If they support it in a noticeable way, then yes. If not, then it will go away. The fact of the matter is that the format had an FM outlet and only attracted $2 million in advertising. That makes it the perfect format for either HD or some other non-commercial service. If people are willing to pay for a subscription service on satellite or internet, more power to them. Because advertisers have already shown that they won't support it.

The only part of this discussion that matters to Audacy is the revenue. They're not in the music distribution business.

 

[Theater of My Mind]

But since you brought up "business strategy," what would be your approach to attracting money to the country format in NYC?

Get rid of the consolidators and let someone who is passionate about the format do it correctly. We've seen what is possible with that approach at WABC where the owner is willing to invest in the programming as opposed to corporate radio's philosophy of constant cost-cutting, and who is willing to do the hard work of understanding the product and selling it to advertisers. Audacy's sales division never understood how to do that with Country in NYC.

However, getting rid of consolidation is never going to happen, in fact it's only likely to get worse. So NYC is unlikely to ever see another FM Country station under the current situation.

HD is, then, I guess the real forward business plan for the broadcast industry.

No, people aren't buying HD radios. They are moving to streaming.

The radio industry enjoyed decades where a small number of corporate broadcast conglomerates controlled a finite -- and in NYC's case, a completely insufficient number of radio frequencies, and the audience had no other audio outlets to choose from. Streaming is eating away at that old business model, and the broadcast oligopoly's grip is slipping away. People now have lots of choices for audio. Younger people in particular are abandoning terrestrial radio with its stale, repetitive playlists, canned talent and 12-minute blocks of huckester-laden commercials.

HD Radio is a sideshow that never worked for broadcasters, and probably never will. It's a graveyard where abandoned formats continue to run in automated, zombie form -- the broadcaster's failed attempt at placating the audience they just blew off.

By abandoning Country and Alternative listeners in NYC, terrestrial broadcasters have effectively invited their audience to abandon FM radio. They will endlessly try to justify their actions but all you have to do is look at the overall audience trends for FM radio over the past several years and the truth is clear.

 

[TheBigA]

Get rid of the consolidators and let someone who is passionate about the format do it correctly.

If that model worked, why didn't a local billionaire buy WPLJ? It was available. Nobody stepped up, including Cats.

No, people aren't buying HD radios. They are moving to streaming.

That's OK because WXBK-HD2 is available on the Audacy app. Along with dozens of other country stations. No problem.

By abandoning Country and Alternative listeners in NYC, terrestrial broadcasters have effectively invited their audience to abandon FM radio.

As I've said, the radio companies aren't in the music distribution business. Radio will focus on formats that advertisers will support, which doesn't include country and alternative. Those audiences left FM many years ago. Alternative audiences don't want a mass appeal radio format. They want to hear their personal favorite bands, and that can't be done on a single FM station.

 

[Theater of My Mind]

As I've said, the radio companies aren't in the music distribution business. Radio will focus on formats that advertisers will support, which doesn't include country and alternative.

And I repeat...

By abandoning Country and Alternative listeners in NYC, terrestrial broadcasters have effectively invited their audience to abandon FM radio. They will endlessly try to justify their actions but all you have to do is look at the overall audience trends for FM radio over the past several years and the truth is clear.

 

[TheBigA]

And I repeat...

And I repeat that there is nothing radio owners can do that will get people to throw away their phones and computers and buy radios. Nothing. That train left the station 20 years ago. People who want to make their own personal playlists have the ability to do so. Those people aren't looking for someone else to curate and host their playlists. They can do it themselves. Everybody understands this.

Audacy didn't "abandon country and alternative listeners in NYC." Both stations are still available on HD-2. The problem was that advertisers abandoned those stations and audiences, and there is no other way to pay for those formats.

 

[Steve Green NEPA]

Been saying here for years -- many of them -- that erosion of any listener replenishment starts with youth.
And that the coveted 2023-available demo candle is burning at both ends.
In a neutral, offhanded way,, a fellow on another forum (who is no longer with us) spotted TSL erosion among 12-17 -- twenty years ago. So youth's attention span was detected, by a disaffected radio veteran, as diminishing before most of the modern listening devices and choices were available. Common sense has to holler that the increasing apathy had to've started even before it was diagnosed.
There's plenty of blame to go around.