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Country Hopes for Big City Future
- Thread starter kws31a
- Start date
F
Frasier
Guest
See if you can spot the missing punctuation in the following paragraph:
To Ed Salamon's point that country could work in New York City despite its diversity: I think now more than ever would be the best time to flip the switch. Do you know how many country songs refer to Mexico these days? "Stays in Mexico", "That's Why God Invented Mexico", and now Chesney has a big hit with "Beer in Mexico."
To Ed Salamon's point that country could work in New York City despite its diversity: I think now more than ever would be the best time to flip the switch. Do you know how many country songs refer to Mexico these days? "Stays in Mexico", "That's Why God Invented Mexico", and now Chesney has a big hit with "Beer in Mexico."
I don't think songs with "Mexico" in the title will attract large numbers of Hispanics to the country format. Perhaps having a Hispanic core artist would. Artists like Freddie Fender helped strengthen country musics popularity among Texas Mexican-Americans in the 1970s.
From what I have read, GO COUNTRY in LA doesn't sound like a very good radio station.It is mostly sattelite fed. Even a slick sounding country station in LA woud do poorly considering that markets demographics/ethnic composition. But this staton could do so bad that it will actually decrease the chance of NYC getting a country station.
From what I have read, GO COUNTRY in LA doesn't sound like a very good radio station.It is mostly sattelite fed. Even a slick sounding country station in LA woud do poorly considering that markets demographics/ethnic composition. But this staton could do so bad that it will actually decrease the chance of NYC getting a country station.
Country's success in the major metros will depend on two things:
1. The ability of the station to create an upbeat, fun and bigger-than-life presentation featuring artists and active air personalities that have strong appeal to Pop/Urban listeners. We're going to have to create an entirely new paradigm for our new, urban-influenced listeners if we stand a chance of getting them.
2. The ability to attract a diverse enthnic mix of listeners. Arbitron's weighting of certain ethnic groups and diary placement work to the serious detriment of country music.
This isn't impossible, but somebody is going to have to step up the the plate and CREATE the new big city version of country radio. Current business models won't cut it! And it's going to be expensive, too. Developing an approach that will satisfy both of the issues I've raised here will require a huge $$ committment to research along with a team of pro's who know how to "read" research and program immediatly to respond to that new and changing information.
In short, what we now know and what we now do will not work in NYC, LA or SF. It's going to take a lot of work and $$, but it'll be worth it, because this new paragigm will help us all program better country stations.
1. The ability of the station to create an upbeat, fun and bigger-than-life presentation featuring artists and active air personalities that have strong appeal to Pop/Urban listeners. We're going to have to create an entirely new paradigm for our new, urban-influenced listeners if we stand a chance of getting them.
2. The ability to attract a diverse enthnic mix of listeners. Arbitron's weighting of certain ethnic groups and diary placement work to the serious detriment of country music.
This isn't impossible, but somebody is going to have to step up the the plate and CREATE the new big city version of country radio. Current business models won't cut it! And it's going to be expensive, too. Developing an approach that will satisfy both of the issues I've raised here will require a huge $$ committment to research along with a team of pro's who know how to "read" research and program immediatly to respond to that new and changing information.
In short, what we now know and what we now do will not work in NYC, LA or SF. It's going to take a lot of work and $$, but it'll be worth it, because this new paragigm will help us all program better country stations.
J
jimmythebassett
Guest
Well said John go to www.allaboutcountry.com for a article like your thoughts.
This topic has been discussed at naseum on this board by undoubtedly non local country music advocates. Nothing wrong with that but frankly in New York, one of the dance music capital's of the world, a more viable format would be current dance, a format that as of several months ago is missing from this market.
New York, being what it is and to anyone with a knowledge of the city, its demographics and history will know that it has more in common with Europe than with the rest of the United States.
No one disputes that country could pull in listeners from New Jersey and parts of Long Island but would it be enough to sell on Madison Avenue? I think not.
Might it not be more beneficial to put more effort into putting on a local country station in perhaps northern NJ, where it would have a following and is currently countryless than to waste all this time and effort into putting one on in NYC. proper where at the end of the day no one is really sure it would make any money or have any sort of real following that would make it a successful station???
New York, being what it is and to anyone with a knowledge of the city, its demographics and history will know that it has more in common with Europe than with the rest of the United States.
No one disputes that country could pull in listeners from New Jersey and parts of Long Island but would it be enough to sell on Madison Avenue? I think not.
Might it not be more beneficial to put more effort into putting on a local country station in perhaps northern NJ, where it would have a following and is currently countryless than to waste all this time and effort into putting one on in NYC. proper where at the end of the day no one is really sure it would make any money or have any sort of real following that would make it a successful station???
Jeffrey said:
Your points are well-taken, Jeffrey. I lived in Lower Manhattan for nearly 2 years, and I know first-hand what your're saying. I watched the CMA's come in to NYC, and everything the CMA did to promote country that week. Not much impact--from my perspective.
However, I do remember a time when WHN had HUGE numbers in NYC and it was an AM! I attended several country concerts at places like BB Kings/Times Square, Radio City Music Hall and Irving Plaza. These shows were absolutely sold out! It is true that most of the audience came in from NJ, Long Island and even PA! But when Keith Urban played Irving Plaza, it was loaded with College Students! These examples prove to me that there is an audience for country in NYC...and that in the extremely congested radio climate, where WLTW has a 7+ share and everybody else is crammed in beginning in the high-4's and below, people will, I believe, greet country as a breath of fresh air. BUT...it must be done in a big-city kinda way. And, as I pointed out before, there is no current business model for such a presentation.
Add to all that you've said the methodology of Arbitron to agressively seek out ethnic groups for sampling and to weight their diaries so heavily, country will have a tough fight on its hands in NYC...or any major US city, for that matter. Which is again the reason why it's going to take a whole new approach to make country work in the big cities. Is it worth it? Ask the record labels who sell so much music in the big metros. At the end of the day, it's going to take their support for country to stand even a ghost of a chance of making it in the Big Apple.
What sort of share do you need to make a profit in New York?
C
chuckydoll
Guest
Typical national media fantasy
ABC has a vested interest in this story -- ABC owns country stations in Atlanta and Dallas/Fort Worth, at least for now.
Not compared to WABC in its Musicradio heyday or 66 WNNNNNNNNNNBC!
WHN had to pick up the Mets in order to get some decent numbers. That eventually paved the way to WFAN.
CBS must have done its homework when it made 102.7 "Fresh". Just look at the 1st-trend numbers out today. Country on 102.7 would have cratered.
ABC has a vested interest in this story -- ABC owns country stations in Atlanta and Dallas/Fort Worth, at least for now.
JohnHendricks said:
Not compared to WABC in its Musicradio heyday or 66 WNNNNNNNNNNBC!
WHN had to pick up the Mets in order to get some decent numbers. That eventually paved the way to WFAN.
CBS must have done its homework when it made 102.7 "Fresh". Just look at the 1st-trend numbers out today. Country on 102.7 would have cratered.
JohnHendricks said:
The days when WHN was a successful station, and on AM, were the days where music radio on AM generally still had listeners. Musicradio WABC was still tops in this town until '78, I believe, and even after being toppled, still remained strong for a couple of years until the plug was pulled in 1982.
Also, New York's demographics then were far, far different than they are today. Since the 1970's, when immigration laws were relaxed, immigration to NYC boomed. It started with Eastern/Southern Europeans, and soon, Hispanics, Asians, etc. The market is much, much less friendly toward a country station now than it was during WHN's heyday.
Case in point: The suburbs are considered a stronghold for country, and many of the format's advocates point to a station like PLJ, which gets most of its ratings from the suburban soccer moms it targets. There's a problem with that argument though: country has failed in the suburbs twice in the past decade! It failed on 94.3 on Long Island, and it failed on the Y-107 quadcast that put in a good signal into most sizeable suburban areas of the city...Westchester, Northern and Central Jersey, LI all could get one of the 107.1 signals, but country died. The ratings just weren't there.
Also, in a city the size of New York and with so many colleges and universities here, I wouldn't be surprised if there were many college students at a Keith Urban concert. After all, so many students who are studying here come from other parts of the US. Problem is, students and the younger demographic are increasingly listening to less and less radio, and country is probably going to be far outweighed by other formats for that demo anyway. A modern rock station would probably get many times the 18-24 listeners a country station would get in this town, and there's no modern rock on the air here either.
The larger point is that while country concerts may sell out in NYC, you yourself answered your own question by pointing out that some folks travel from as far as PA to those concerts. It's also important not to forget that this is a metro area of some 15+ million people. A polka festival on Long Island or even a Greek or Russian concert can (and have) sold out the Continental Airlines Arena, the Theater at MSG and even MSG itself. That's because in such a vast metro area, you can find 20,000 people who would be willing to pay to listen to just about any genre live. Doesn't mean we should also put on a 24-7 polka station from the ESB, because it might sell out a concert somewhere in the metro area.
Everybody continues to cite past failures of country radio in NYC...and I keep re-iterating that past and current business models for country radio will NOT work in NYC. It will take an entirely DIFFERENT presentation and music mix...but I believe there is the product, the talent and the research available to make it happen. Will it be cost-effective? Probably not at first, but there HAS to be something on NYC FM radio that isn't "R&B something"...and that pretty much describes every station except WLTW.
As for MSG, Tim & Faith filled it to capacity 2 nites last year...and the event sold out in less than 20 minutes! There aren' too many acts that can do that well in NYC...or anywhere! There ARE country acts that fill arenas in NYC with New Yorkers...and those acts will need to dominate any country station in NYC. And NYC personalities will have to be a HUGE part of it, too.
As I've said before, it's POSSIBLE to create a country station in NYC (or anywhere) that will be profitable and perhaps eventually win. It just doesn't exist right now. Can we concentrate on what it might take to make it happen?
As for MSG, Tim & Faith filled it to capacity 2 nites last year...and the event sold out in less than 20 minutes! There aren' too many acts that can do that well in NYC...or anywhere! There ARE country acts that fill arenas in NYC with New Yorkers...and those acts will need to dominate any country station in NYC. And NYC personalities will have to be a HUGE part of it, too.
As I've said before, it's POSSIBLE to create a country station in NYC (or anywhere) that will be profitable and perhaps eventually win. It just doesn't exist right now. Can we concentrate on what it might take to make it happen?
Well said. You are correct. It's all in the presentation of the format and it can be done if the right people are employed. This goes for any format. A really good salesperson can sell you the Brooklyn Bridge. There is definetly a good market for a New/Hot Country format in the NYC area, and it will take someone with the guts and vision to do it right. The launch of a new format in a large metro area has to saturate the media and be flashy and exciting! The "Wolf" in San Francisco is a good case in point..."10,000 Songs in a row" Commercial free. This station is promising to saturate the media with ads and commercials and make the station appealing with good personalities. Another fact is that the former Y-107 quadcast did not "fail" in the suburbs. They were sold to a company that had no experience in the country format and had plans from the get-go to launch a spanish language format. Y-107 was a decent money maker with a handicapped signal. The engineers of the station were constantly working to improve the signal's coverage as complaints of poor reception in certain areas poured in. One such area with many, many complaints was BROOKLYN. I also agree that any station in the area needs familiar New York talent and they must know their product. Jim Kerr, a veteran New Yorker did a superb job with the morning show as did Ray Rossi and the others. Y107 was fresh and entertaining and would certainly work on a strong NYC signal.
JohnHendricks said:
I have two boxes. One is a shoe box and contains an average piece of dog poop. The other is a box from an upscale handbag store that contains a similar piece of dog poop with a pretty pink bow around it. See the problem?
Put country in NYC presented any way you choose and I bet it will not see anything more than a 2. Much of those listeners will come from the fringe areas outside of NYC.
Like any NYC radio station, it's a full-market deal, including the Boroughs, Long Island, Connecticut, New Jersey, etc. I only have one question for you: What's the "dog poop" have to do with anything?
JohnHendricks said:
And even with LI, CT, and Jersey, country couldn't even pull a 2 share by the end of its run at WYNY in 1996. And in those same suburbs, it couldn't support two recent attempts at country.
Presentation is one thing, but don't tell me that country fans still wouldn't listen to a country station in their neck of the woods, even if it wasn't the greatest one--as long as it was local and the only game in town. The past two attempts and WYNY were the only game in town, and they went under.
Honestly, if the best such a station would do is low 2's, no one is going to choose that over a format that will also get low 2's but is much more "palatable," rightly or wrongly, to the agencies and advertisers in the city and metro area. That's how PLJ stays in business.
Please keep in mind that over HALF of the radio stations in NYC have less than a 2-share. In fact all but one of them (WLTW) has more than high 4's and they're all (except WLTW) R&B-something. Doesn't it strike you that NYC listeners might actually want something other than R&B? The 7-share WLTW continues to get...book after book...would seem to imply "YES!!!".
NYC is an international city with a unique mix of ethnicities, the the largest ethnic group is Eurpoean-American and they seem to congregate around WLTW. Interesting that WLTW plays many core country artists, including Keith Urban, Rascal Flatts, Martina McBride and Faith Hill.
Y-107 was a longshot at best, because of its signal issues. And while they were a pretty good-sounding station, they couldn't overcome the signal problems. Let's see what Scott does in SF...it might change a lot of people's thinking about country in NYC, including yours!
NYC is an international city with a unique mix of ethnicities, the the largest ethnic group is Eurpoean-American and they seem to congregate around WLTW. Interesting that WLTW plays many core country artists, including Keith Urban, Rascal Flatts, Martina McBride and Faith Hill.
Y-107 was a longshot at best, because of its signal issues. And while they were a pretty good-sounding station, they couldn't overcome the signal problems. Let's see what Scott does in SF...it might change a lot of people's thinking about country in NYC, including yours!
JohnHendricks said:
Over half, if you include all the peashooter AM's, non-commercial stations (and yet, a station like WNYC gets close to a 2) and stations like Family Radio. Using that as an excuse to justify a country station's potentially poor ratings doesn't do much to promote the format, just because other stations are underperforming.
I'm also not quite sure about most of NYC radio being R&B something. 102.7 doesn't sound like R&B to me. Neither does 104.3. Neither does 95.5. Or 96.3. I won't get into 92.3 because their ratings stink. None of the spanish-language stations sound like R&B to me either, nor do stations like WABC, WFAN, WINS or WCBS-AM. What radio dial have you been listening to?
Also, since when is "European-American" an ethnic group? Especially since, by now, most "European-Americans" are in their second, third, fourth, fifth or higher generation in this country. Not to mention the fact that white Americans (what I am guessing you mean when you refer to "European-Americans") are increasingly becoming less of a majority in the NYC metro, and are probably already only a plurality of the population and not the majority within the five boroughs.
WLTW would not be as successful as it is only by appealing to "European Americans." "European Americans" also don't listen exclusively to Lite FM. Could you provide us with some evidence to back up your claims? Who is listening to Fresh, Jack, PLJ, Q104.3, WQXR and in part to stations like Z100, 1010 WINS, WCBS-AM, WFAN, and most others?
Y-107 only really had signal issues within the city, but as we all like to repeat over and over again, country is a format that, if anything, would do best in the suburbs. The 107.1 in Westchester covers all of Westchester, parts of CT, Bergen County and the North Shore of LI, as well as parts of the five boroughs. The 107.1 in Long Branch covered much of Central NJ and parts of the South Shore of LI and Staten Island (the whitest borough in NYC). The 107.1 over in Northwestern Jersey filled in areas not covered by Westchester and Long Branch...ditto the 107.1 on Eastern LI, which covered all of that region (the most country-friendly on Long Island) and filled in the gaps where Westchester and Long Branch didn't come in.
Since the end of Y-107, and the end of the quadcast, those respective signals seem to have been able to, for the most part, support the stations that came on the air well. Those include The Peak (another "white" format), WLIR (probably mostly "white" listeners) and The Breeze (again, probably mostly "white" listeners). Signal issues don't seem to be a problem for those formats, even if coverage is limited.
I think what he was trying to say is that a 2+ ratings share is not considered terrible in a market like New York, since it's population level is high and the level of competition in the FM radio market is also high (4 ACs, 4 Urbans, 3 Spanish, etc.) - the market is heavily saturated resulting in a more even distribution of listenership.neo11 said:
We also must remember that Y-107 failed in NYC and not in the suburbs. The station's ratings were poor in the NY market because it didn't cover the entire market...most of the northern and central NJ suburbs were not covered...areas where country has more potential. How could they expect any decent NY market ratings while having large gaps (i.e. limited coverage) in their market?
NJMike said:
I just don't understand something....if country is a viable format as it is according to some, why don't any suburban stations flip to country? There are plenty of suburban stations pulling in mediocre numbers and the suburbs are where the majority of the country listners are.
6 years ago WBAZ on Long Island's eastend flipped to country....a very country friendly area for Long Island and it failed and not just failed.....it was a fiasco.
Given the failed attempts in the immediate market even as far east as 90 miles, I can understand why CC,CBS and all the rest don't dare touch the format here.
Would you with millions of dollars on the line?
Not sure where to start here...
First, Suburban Stations don't seem to get much respect anywhere when comes to Arbitron. Their surveys are often-times breakouts of the metro samples, so stations in suburban areas--including New York Suburbs, are getting breakouts from the HUGE NYC TSA. Hardly a complete picture of how these stations do in their individual Suburban markets. So, to expect ANY Suburban station to have a commanding ratings share is asking a great deal. The suburban stations who do well are extremely local (to their specific location) both on-air and promotionally. They HAVE to be--they can't afford marketing campaigns directed to the entire metro, which is something all successful metro stations do routinely.
I keep hearing how Y107 failed in NYC (where it had no signal). How could it POSSIBLY succeed with no signal? So, let's drop that one, okay? To ask listeners to "find" the station amongst several frequencies is also a HUGE challenge that Y107 (remember, Y107 was on different frequencies--all 107-something) couldn't overcome. So, you have what's tantamount to a suburban signal (several suburbs!) without the ability to localize it to any ONE suburb. Double-whammy! They had to sound like a NYC station without the advantage of being able to localize with promotions & programming.
Now, for my "R&B-something" comment. Perhaps if you've been in NYC for many years, you might not notice the R&B slant to most all NYC MUSIC stations. Let's drop the WABC, WINS & the AM and FM talkers from this discussion, okay? Listen to Smooth Jazz 101.9--you'll hear more Gladys Knight that Kenny G. Even WCBS-FM in it's final days was more R&B-Classics than "Oldies". And WLTW-FM's strength is in its ability to relate to the majority of New Yorkers--and yes, "European Americans" (the new PC description) are still the majority in NYC--even Manhattan! This is NOT to say that E-A's don't like R&B, we all know they do...so please don't blast me with that one! It's interesting that WLTW consistantly (over the past decade) has over 7 share points while everybody else begins in the upper 4's and below.
Every successful country station in America has one thing in common: HIGH CUME! The winners in country are always high cumers. There are many reasons for that. THAT'S the reason suburban stations don't do well with country--they can't get enough cume! AC's are strong at getting long periods of TSL which makes them much more efficient with the limited cumes they get. That's why AC's or derivitives of AC do well in suburban markets and why WLTW does well in the suburbs as well as NYC metro.
Any country station in NYC--to be successful--will have to cume big time...and current business models for country don't answer the big question: How do you get big cume in NYC?
First, Suburban Stations don't seem to get much respect anywhere when comes to Arbitron. Their surveys are often-times breakouts of the metro samples, so stations in suburban areas--including New York Suburbs, are getting breakouts from the HUGE NYC TSA. Hardly a complete picture of how these stations do in their individual Suburban markets. So, to expect ANY Suburban station to have a commanding ratings share is asking a great deal. The suburban stations who do well are extremely local (to their specific location) both on-air and promotionally. They HAVE to be--they can't afford marketing campaigns directed to the entire metro, which is something all successful metro stations do routinely.
I keep hearing how Y107 failed in NYC (where it had no signal). How could it POSSIBLY succeed with no signal? So, let's drop that one, okay? To ask listeners to "find" the station amongst several frequencies is also a HUGE challenge that Y107 (remember, Y107 was on different frequencies--all 107-something) couldn't overcome. So, you have what's tantamount to a suburban signal (several suburbs!) without the ability to localize it to any ONE suburb. Double-whammy! They had to sound like a NYC station without the advantage of being able to localize with promotions & programming.
Now, for my "R&B-something" comment. Perhaps if you've been in NYC for many years, you might not notice the R&B slant to most all NYC MUSIC stations. Let's drop the WABC, WINS & the AM and FM talkers from this discussion, okay? Listen to Smooth Jazz 101.9--you'll hear more Gladys Knight that Kenny G. Even WCBS-FM in it's final days was more R&B-Classics than "Oldies". And WLTW-FM's strength is in its ability to relate to the majority of New Yorkers--and yes, "European Americans" (the new PC description) are still the majority in NYC--even Manhattan! This is NOT to say that E-A's don't like R&B, we all know they do...so please don't blast me with that one! It's interesting that WLTW consistantly (over the past decade) has over 7 share points while everybody else begins in the upper 4's and below.
Every successful country station in America has one thing in common: HIGH CUME! The winners in country are always high cumers. There are many reasons for that. THAT'S the reason suburban stations don't do well with country--they can't get enough cume! AC's are strong at getting long periods of TSL which makes them much more efficient with the limited cumes they get. That's why AC's or derivitives of AC do well in suburban markets and why WLTW does well in the suburbs as well as NYC metro.
Any country station in NYC--to be successful--will have to cume big time...and current business models for country don't answer the big question: How do you get big cume in NYC?
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