Covering 20 acres Legally?????

[midwestclubber]

Would it be legal, or at least acceptable to use a transmitter, higher than part 15, to cover a very large area of your own property, if the signal didnt leave your private property. Lets say, you have 20 acres, OR MORE, and you use a 100 millowatt EDM FM TX to do it. Is it legal (IF) the signal doesnt leave your private property. The purpose of this TX, would be to listen to Internet Radio stations, while WORKING on the property, and would be for personal use only, and of course it wouldnt be a 24 hr broadcast, it would only be for 6 to 8 hours a day.

 

[nd2023]

> Would it be legal, or at least acceptable to use a
> transmitter, higher than part 15, to cover a very large area
> of your own property, if the signal didnt leave your private
> property. Lets say, you have 20 acres, OR MORE, and you use
> a 100 millowatt EDM FM TX to do it. Is it legal (IF) the
> signal doesnt leave your private property. The purpose of
> this TX, would be to listen to Internet Radio stations,
> while WORKING on the property, and would be for personal use
> only, and of course it wouldnt be a 24 hr broadcast, it
> would only be for 6 to 8 hours a day.
>
Technically, it would be illegal, but if it doesn't interfere with licensed stations outside your property, it should be OK.<P ID="signature">______________
17-year-old radio geek
Location: Princeton Junction, NJ
AIM: KewlDude471
WWPH 107.9 FM: http://wwph1079fm.no-ip.org</P>

 

[westlife]

> Technically, it would be illegal, but if it doesn't
> interfere with licensed stations outside your property, it
> should be OK.

As long as the signal complies with Part 15 requirements outside of your property borders, there is virtually no chance of any trouble unless you're stupid enough to turn yourself in to the FCC.

Nursing homes and other establishments do this all the time. They set up a radio transmitter of up to several watts to provide their residents/visitors with an in-house audio service. This is affectionately known as "Geezer Radio".

<P ID="signature">______________

"This is the New York Emergency Broadcast System satellite channel. They took the crosstown bus."</P>

 

[radio8z]

How do you keep the signal from leaving?

> Would it be legal, or at least acceptable to use a
> transmitter, higher than part 15, to cover a very large area
> of your own property, if the signal didnt leave your private
> property. Lets say, you have 20 acres, OR MORE, and you use
> a 100 millowatt EDM FM TX to do it. Is it legal (IF) the
> signal doesnt leave your private property. The purpose of
> this TX, would be to listen to Internet Radio stations,
> while WORKING on the property, and would be for personal use
> only, and of course it wouldnt be a 24 hr broadcast, it
> would only be for 6 to 8 hours a day.
>
Hi,

No, it is not legal. The rules say nothing about property limits, only field strength at 3 meters. Consider why. Even if confined to your large property how do you prevent interference to aircraft navigation and communication without these limits?

Others here have essentially said go for it. I don't recommend this, but if you do you should be prepared to face the consequences if you get caught.

Also, I wonder how one can keep the signal from leaving one's property. A Faraday shield perhaps?

You can't cover 20 acres with a legal FM system. If you use the range estimated by the FCC of 200 feet this gives a circular area of just under 1 acre. Part 15 AM probably can legally cover 20 acres with a usable signal from the center.


Neil

 

[carlvanorden]

New, interesting info regarding the EDM....

> Would it be legal, or at least acceptable to use a> transmitter, higher than part 15, to cover a very large area> of your own property, if the signal didnt leave your private> property. Lets say, you have 20 acres, OR MORE, and you use> a 100 millowatt EDM FM TX to do it. Is it legal (IF) the> signal doesnt leave your private property. The purpose of> this TX, would be to listen to Internet Radio stations,> while WORKING on the property, and would be for personal use> only, and of course it wouldnt be a 24 hr broadcast, it> would only be for 6 to 8 hours a day.> I'll be brief: but EDM has come up with a tx that is adjustable from 10mW up to 100mW, with killer signal-to-noice ratio (suitable for classical music broadcasting).......in short, it is totally adjustable...................................it is Looking like I will be a tester for this new tx, and if so, I will give a full report on it.....what this will give part 15'ers is a real part 15 FM tx that will not, in any way, interfere, nor be illegal in the US!!It is exciting news, and I found out about it just a few days ago...the price will be outstanding (yes, I do not work for EDM: I'm totally independent but If I do a test, I will post about it).....even the signal-noice ratio will be on an even keel with a pro-tx. For under $200.00, I'm already considering buying the new tx.......I have all the test data on the tx, and I hope to post it soon so you can see the difference.......I'm pretty impressed with the data on the new tx and that data promises the new tx will surpass the ability of the old EDM's and their sound quality (and the old EDM's have superior sound quality;..don't think anyone ever posted they didn't!).In the future I'll be working on an antenna that is small and workable with the new EDM in the hopes that it will become your new favorite FM part 15 trans.Carl<P ID="signature">______________
[email protected], [email protected],[email protected]</P>

 

[carlvanorden]

Re: How do you keep the signal from leaving?

> > Would it be legal, or at least acceptable to use a> > transmitter, higher than part 15, to cover a very large> area> > of your own property, if the signal didnt leave your> private> > property. Lets say, you have 20 acres, OR MORE, and you> use> > a 100 millowatt EDM FM TX to do it. Is it legal (IF) the> > signal doesnt leave your private property. The purpose of> > > this TX, would be to listen to Internet Radio stations,> > while WORKING on the property, and would be for personal> use> > only, and of course it wouldnt be a 24 hr broadcast, it> > would only be for 6 to 8 hours a day.> > > Hi,> > No, it is not legal. The rules say nothing about property> limits, only field strength at 3 meters. Consider why. > Even if confined to your large property how do you prevent> interference to aircraft navigation and communication> without these limits?> > Others here have essentially said go for it. I don't> recommend this, but if you do you should be prepared to face> the consequences if you get caught.> > Also, I wonder how one can keep the signal from leaving> one's property. A Faraday shield perhaps?> > You can't cover 20 acres with a legal FM system. If you use> the range estimated by the FCC of 200 feet this gives a> circular area of just under 1 acre. Part 15 AM probably can> legally cover 20 acres with a usable signal from the center.> > > > Neil> Well it can Neil; we do it quite nicely with sstran and my antenna. It does work.....Unfortunately, one customer of mine could not make (at least right now) the sstran and the antenna work, and that doesn't mean he won't make it work....53 customers this year made the sstran and my antenna work well for them, and it does indeed provide 1 mile or that yard this guy talks about listenable......doing it on AM is indeed a project, and listen to this: every SINGLE customer of mine has had a different installation idea. Try to accomodate 53 guys doing 53 different things when really only one thing really works. Hard job.....but doable......maybe I had the hardest installation of all...having to hide an antenna in a wooden shed and still getting 2 miles out with sstran on my antenna system. If I can do it that way anyone can......but it is not 3 minutes of work....there is tuning the antenna and choosing the correct tap and making sure the ground is right and that everything is soldered solid.That is AM radio; FM is simpler but you don't get the signal if you want to cover a mile........The FM tx's avaiable will do that, but to remain legal, keep looking, and I've posted above some really good points.<P ID="signature">______________
[email protected], [email protected],[email protected]</P>

 

[radiopilot]

Not trying to rain on anyone's parade here but read the article below, according to what the FCC calculated for the measured limit on FM...

1 watt/250 = .004mw was the legal amount of power the FCC said it should have been even though we don't know what gain the antenna was for this situation, but they got a hefty fine just for doing what they thought was legal....


Speedway fined for 1 watt station
In a similar case, the FCC has fined the operators of California Speedway for operating a one watt FM transmitter on 104.7 without a license. The FCC says that power was measured at 250 times over the legal limit for an unlicensed transmitter – a fact that the Speedway is disputing. The Speedway claims that the station was only operated during events and believed that the equipment is FCC compliant. They claimed that the manufacturer told them to turn down the unit's output control if it received any complaints of interference during use of the equipment. The Speedway was fined $8,000, reduced from $10K based on the Speedway's past record.

For further info:
http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/DA-02-3105A1.pdf

 

[radio8z]

Re: How do you keep the signal from leaving?

Hi Carl,

Thanks for elaborating on the AM situation. I left it at what I said because I didn't want to leave the impression that one could achieve this with a 10 foot piece of wire. You nicely described what could be involved, and I had your previous posts in mind when I said probably because you had reported mile ranges.

As I prepared my previous post, I did a rough calculation that a 20 acre circle would have a radius of 500 feet. This range, in my experience, cannot be had with a hookup wire antenna and no ground at 100 mW., but with the range that you talk about with a proper antenna, this is certainably doable.

Neil

 

[rfry]

> Would it be legal, or at least acceptable to use a
> transmitter, higher than part 15, to cover a very large area
> of your own property, if the signal didnt leave your private
> property. Lets say, you have 20 acres, OR MORE, and you use
> a 100 millowatt EDM FM TX to do it.
_____________

This can be done with a legal Part 15 FM system, and you won't need anything remotely close to a 100 milliwatt transmitter to do it. Even 100 microwatts is way too much, unless the antenna radiates almost none of it. As I've posted here many times already, it takes only ~11.4 thousandths of a microwatt radiated from a 1/2-wave dipole to generate the maximum legal Part 15 FM field.

Without interference, a decent FM radio should receive a usable signal well beyond a 1,000 foot radius from a tx antenna radiating the maximum legal Part 15 FM field in all compass directions (see table below).

Feet > Field, µV/m
9.84 > 250.00 (this is the field defined by the FCC at 3 meters)
19.68 > 125.00
39.36 > 62.50
78.72 > 31.25
157.44 > 15.63
314.88 > 7.81
629.76 > 3.91
1259.52 > 1.95
2519.04 > 0.98

There is no height restriction for a Part 15 FM tx antenna. So if you side-mount a 1/2-wave transmit dipole off a short mast, or on your roof, so that the antenna can be seen visually from everywhere you are trying to reach, and orient it in the vertical plane -- it will produce a non-directional, vertically-polarized field that should give you a coverage area at least close to what you are hoping for, and legally so.
//

 

[rickity]

Re: How do you keep the signal from leaving?

> Hi Carl,
>
> Thanks for elaborating on the AM situation. I left it at
> what I said because I didn't want to leave the impression
> that one could achieve this with a 10 foot piece of wire.
> You nicely described what could be involved, and I had your
> previous posts in mind when I said probably because you had
> reported mile ranges.
>
> As I prepared my previous post, I did a rough calculation
> that a 20 acre circle would have a radius of 500 feet. This
> range, in my experience, cannot be had with a hookup wire
> antenna and no ground at 100 mW., but with the range that
> you talk about with a proper antenna, this is certainably
> doable.
>
> Neil
>

The Rangemaster would do this well, and sound very good.

Mine is installed in one of those temporary situations that has become sort of permanent, poor grounding, etc. and it puts out a very good sound on a Tivo PAL radio for about a half mile radius.

It has been picked up as far away as four miles on car radios, not very good, but there.

Using the prescribed Radio Shack whip antenna, but like I said the installation is very weak with it grounded to a chain link dog fence and the antenna stuck in a tree. Sorry Keith, I'll do better. Reading Tesla's antenna book now. Done in a minute. What fun. Love the rock salt in a buried barrel idea. I want to try that here at Honey Do Ranch.

By the way, nightime is another matter - signal is crushed by other 1670's - get about two blocks at night.

rickity

 

[simcha]

I am the Guy!

Yes you certainly have one unhappy customer! I worked days on getting sstran and your antenna to work....

 

[simcha]

Re: I am the Guy!Ps It never worked more two blocks!

I forgot to add on it never worked more then two blocks

 

[JasonW]

Hiding Carl's antenna in a wooden shed?

Carl, I've also been thinking of hiding my antenna in a wooden shed so that it won't be vandalized. The only possible problem is that my detached wooden shed has a corrugated metal roof (eaves 8' high, peak of gable 12' high).

Will your antenna work under a metal roof? The shed floor is bare dirt, with two 20' long perforated steel tracks (for driving a car onto) in the floor. I could sink a lot of ground rods and copper wire into the floor, and perhaps tie in the tracks to the ground system as well. -- Jason

 

[wcummings]

Section 15.209 grants any "educational institution" unlicensed AM operation covering all of its "campus". (Also known as a "free radiate" system.)

There is no restriction as to power levels or antenna dimensions.

The only restriction is that the field strength of the signal measured at the perimeter of the "campus" must be within the allowed limits.

The issue is: What is the FCC's legal definition of an "educational institution".

Would someone who is home-schooling their child on their twenty acre ranch qualify under 15.209?

 

[wikhradio]

Re: I am the Guy!Ps It never worked more two blocks!

> I forgot to add on it never worked more then two blocks
>

I also am one who is currently working on this setup... I am at 1/4 mile, but that is IT right now... It is snow covered outside, so gotta wait until spring before I can do anything more. I have CONFIDENCE that it will work if I spend some time on the antenna system.<P ID="signature">______________


Moderator, Community Radio board</P>

 

[radiopilot]

Re: I am the Guy!Ps It never worked more two blocks!

> > I forgot to add on it never worked more then two blocks
> >
>
> I also am one who is currently working on this setup... I am
> at 1/4 mile, but that is IT right now... It is snow covered
> outside, so gotta wait until spring before I can do anything
> more. I have CONFIDENCE that it will work if I spend some
> time on the antenna system.
>


Wikhradio and simcha,

I believe that the antenna coil setup you have may be wrong or not set up correctly, even with the coil and copper antenna with a ground rod alone, you should get 1 mile plus, so something is wrong with either the coil or the taps... I was getting 2 miles alone with just three ground rods in the ground before I put in 64 ground radials... make sure the electrical connection is correct 85-125 plus turns to the copper antenna and approx. 35 turns below for taps with the last turn free ie., not connected... if this is not the case then it's set up incorrectly. The ground from the transmitter should be soldered to the mast not a mechanical connection.

Radiopilot

 

[simcha]

Re: I am the Guy!Ps It never worked more two blocks!

> > I forgot to add on it never worked more then two blocks
> >
>
> I also am one who is currently working on this setup... I am
> at 1/4 mile, but that is IT right now... It is snow covered
> outside, so gotta wait until spring before I can do anything
> more. I have CONFIDENCE that it will work if I spend some
> time on the antenna system.
>
Yeah this is part of the problem. Why so tricky and difficult???
I can put up a rangemaster with ground and get a good signal in under a half hour. A signal that will do 2 miles if not more. I bought the other system because i saw a need for non roof installation in some projected areas I would like to broadcast in. One problem here is you cant call anyone. Keith Hamilton is a unqiue person. I have done business with many people and very rarely do I business with a person like Keith. Kind dedicated and professional. Keith would say if you cant get the distance he will buy the unit back. We got the distance and it is only improving. In addition to the other system, the two components are made by different people, makes even more complicated.

 

[carlvanorden]

Re: I am the Guy!Ps It never worked more two blocks!

> I forgot to add on it never worked more then two blocks> I'm not upset to discuss issues that arrise with customers who bought my antenna......I will also go on record that I spent countless hours "tutoring" both Simcha and Jake on how to hook up this antenna.....so, since this came up and both these men decided to say my antenna "doesn't work"...let me get my 2cents in>.................In 2005, I have built exactly 61 antenna/coil units, or just coils for 59 customers (1 customer bought two units)...that is a lot of business/work for someone that thought I may do a few of these once in a while.......there are a couple of versions of these coils...one is the original which is always the same with the exception of the top of it..it is a different fitting, and one is the Rios coil, which I build a bit longer than it was originally designed, "just in case".....As far as Simcha is concerned, and he has been doing this for a very long time, I am definately not sure why he couldn't make it work; there is nothing different about his antenna compared to the 20 or so like his that I have built and sold...................Jakes story is a bit different than the rest: Jake bought my first experimental antenna; I built a new coil cause believe me the coil I was using was burnt out from experimentation!....Jake did me the pleasure of taking pictures of the installation and sending them to me, cause he couldn't get it to work......I am sorry to say, there was not one thing Jake did that was correct: the entire installation was completely wrong..it was obvious he didn't even read the instructions...the last I heard from him, he felt confident that he was making progress; however in the interim, he was in the process of moving, so of course it will have to be totally rehooked up and retuned, so we will see how he does come Spring.>>>>>>>>.What this means is that out of 59 customers/units, I have 57 that were very happy with my unit....some had questions, some had problems, but again, I am not above admitting that I had a terrible time when I started experimenting with this antenna so I've seen all the problems and have most of the solutions. I passed on (and continue to do so) ideas and suggestions and sooner than later everyone has had success with it.................Doing this always leaves me with an idea every day that someone will have so much of a problem that they will be dissatisfied. In Simchas case, he purchased his antenna via paypal, purchased insurance and I don't know if this happened, but if he did collect on it, he has a free unit which he can either use, trash, or donate to an organization (my idea)...I also told him he could donate it to NJRM (the radio museum I run) and we do need an antenna sooner or later, so I wouldn't have to build one for us, and get a tax deduction on it......so it is not that I didn't go out of my way for anyone........................I'll admit; it is not easy work to tune the antenna to resonance, but then again we are not talking about a 2000 dollar Rangemaster installation either......the antenna works; and the higher you place it the more work it is to tune it properly. I would estimate that out of my almost 60 customers this year, 50 of them had particulars that had to either be overcome and solved on my end; not many wanted to install it the way I recommended......I also tend to get an initial kick out of people who buy my antenna, stick it in the ground, place the lead wire on one tap and expect to get miles out of a short antenna with a transmitter that has a tenth of a watt. True; I had 2-3 miles of solid signal, BUT, I worked at it til it happened........I want to add something about the bottom of the coil: it is amazing to me how many people either inverted the coil (and I attached it the correct way), or used the end tap (the loose wire) to the antenna or grounded it out. The loose wire became a real problem simply again because customers didn't read about it and took it upon themselves to do something with it...the loose wire as per the original plans is simply the 13th tap and nothing more, so I did away with it, made it a tap and mostly I build these with two extra taps anyway to avoid confusion and also the coil looks better from a physical standpoint.>>>>>>>>>>>>>>I do hope Simcha gets it working, cause it will work and when that happens he will like it....same with Jake, but everyone needs to study the plans, and follow them to the letter and not decide that they know all about it and do it freehand.I'm not putting anyone down; I'm sorry for these two, but I have 59 very happy customers and a couple more on the way......Carl<P ID="signature">______________
[email protected], [email protected],[email protected]</P>

 

[carlvanorden]

Write me Jason

> Carl, I've also been thinking of hiding my antenna in a> wooden shed so that it won't be vandalized. The only> possible problem is that my detached wooden shed has a> corrugated metal roof (eaves 8' high, peak of gable 12'> high).> > Will your antenna work under a metal roof? The shed floor> is bare dirt, with two 20' long perforated steel tracks (for> driving a car onto) in the floor. I could sink a lot of> ground rods and copper wire into the floor, and perhaps tie> in the tracks to the ground system as well. -- Jason> I have a ton of experience with this.........I can't find a record of selling you an antenna!.....but if I did, write me and give me these details again and I"ll write you with the solutions to the issues.Carl ([email protected])<P ID="signature">______________
[email protected], [email protected],[email protected]</P>

 

[simcha]

Re: I am the Guy!Ps It never worked more two blocks!

I followed all the instructions that were emailed back to me. I worked on it for days! Who has such extra time?