Crutchfield

[iman]

I've long been a Crutchfield customer and have always have been very satisfied with my experiences there. I get periodic emails from them and today I got one strictly devoted to HD Radio. Way to go Crutchfield! Glad to see that you’re putting your company behind the technology.

Secondly, did anyone read the user review of the Boston Acoustic Receptor HD that mentions “secret” menus? Are these indeed “secret”? Or, does BA say you can do this in the manual? I don’t own a BA R HD but knowing that some added functionality is existent might help me be swayed to buy one.

 

[audiophile.]

Maybe there's an auto-reboot feature, for when the thing freezes up...

 

[I.B. Iquity]

Yes there is a secret menu available to make changes to the BA. It's not listed in the manual. I checked it out once but found that adjusting most of the available parameters caused more problems than they solved. Of course you can also adjust the EQ when you enter these secrat settings and no, they aren't listed in the manual. I forget what the key to entering these setting was but it involves hitting two buttons simultaniously. If you search this board somewhere the information was given on how to access the secret settings.

 

[700WLW]

This all sounds so mysterious - secret menus and secret HD channels ! Just like the lady for the latest HD Radio commercial, talking about those secret HD channels between the channels - there is a long pause, like the person she is talking to is speechless ! Well, I've got a secret - IBOC causes adjacent-channel interference and has only 60% the coverage of analog !

 

[Chuck]

I forget what the key to entering these setting was but it involves hitting two buttons simultaniously. If you search this board somewhere the information was given on how to access the secret settings.

As I understand it, one of the most common uses for the "secret" menu is to lock the radio in analog. From what I understand, it is a good performer when locked that way. Another common "tweak" is to roll off the bass a bit. I have an older mono analog BA radio, and it is indeed a very good radio. I would love to roll off the low end a bit though. It is a tad too "boomy" for my taste. I wish it had the secret menu too.

On the other hand, I think I paid about $129.95 for the mono analog radio. At the time, I thought it was an awful lot to pay for a radio, even a very good radio. I suspect that other people have that same price-point reaction. I've never been able to figure out why people by the Bose radio for $400-$600 depending on features. Must be great marketing. The HD radio people should take a lesson.

 

[700WLW]

I forget what the key to entering these setting was but it involves hitting two buttons simultaniously. If you search this board somewhere the information was given on how to access the secret settings.

As I understand it, one of the most common uses for the "secret" menu is to lock the radio in analog. From what I understand, it is a good performer when locked that way. Another common "tweak" is to roll off the bass a bit. I have an older mono analog BA radio, and it is indeed a very good radio. I would love to roll off the low end a bit though. It is a tad too "boomy" for my taste. I wish it had the secret menu too.

On the other hand, I think I paid about $129.95 for the mono analog radio. At the time, I thought it was an awful lot to pay for a radio, even a very good radio. I suspect that other people have that same price-point reaction. I've never been able to figure out why people by the Bose radio for $400-$600 depending on features. Must be great marketing. The HD radio people should take a lesson.

What a joke, when locked in analog, the BA is a good performer - what does that say about HD Radio ! You can buy very nice boom-boxes for $50 - $75, instead of this nonsense for $130 and $300 ! You are correct, in that the price of HD radios will have to be near analog radios, in order to have a prayer, but that will never happen !

 

[Chuck]

What a joke, when locked in analog, the BA is a good performer - what does that say about HD Radio ! You can buy very nice boom-boxes for $50 - $75, instead of this nonsense for $130 and $300 ! You are correct, in that the price of HD radios will have to be near analog radios, in order to have a prayer, but that will never happen !

I thought you'd enjoy that.

On Barry Mishkind's radio board there has been quite a bit of discussion about the licensing fes for HD radios. It is rumored to be $40. Nobody seems to confirm or deny that. Someone did find out that TI wants $40 a pop for the chip set that makes the radio work. I don't know if that is true or not, but even if the chips come down drastically, and the ibiquity licensing fee is more reasonable, these are still going to be expensive radios. Further due to power demands, they are confined to needing a wall socket or automotive power to run. It will take a second generation set of processors to make a portable radio. I wonder if it will get that far?

 

[dbdigital]

I forget what the key to entering these setting was but it involves hitting two buttons simultaniously. If you search this board somewhere the information was given on how to access the secret settings.

As I understand it, one of the most common uses for the "secret" menu is to lock the radio in analog. From what I understand, it is a good performer when locked that way. Another common "tweak" is to roll off the bass a bit. I have an older mono analog BA radio, and it is indeed a very good radio. I would love to roll off the low end a bit though. It is a tad too "boomy" for my taste. I wish it had the secret menu too.

On the other hand, I think I paid about $129.95 for the mono analog radio. At the time, I thought it was an awful lot to pay for a radio, even a very good radio. I suspect that other people have that same price-point reaction. I've never been able to figure out why people by the Bose radio for $400-$600 depending on features. Must be great marketing. The HD radio people should take a lesson.

What a joke, when locked in analog, the BA is a good performer - what does that say about HD Radio ! You can buy very nice boom-boxes for $50 - $75, instead of this nonsense for $130 and $300 ! You are correct, in that the price of HD radios will have to be near analog radios, in order to have a prayer, but that will never happen !

What I don't get is the form factor HD Radios are being manufactured and sold as...table-top radios with tinny speakers. Correction. Over-priced table-top radios with tinny speakers.

You'd think that if this was such incredible, ground-breaking, great-sounding technology we would see HD Radio in audiophile tuners and receivers, or as high-end boom boxes, minis and portables. You'd think every manufacturer of car stereo would be on board with several models to choose from.

Instead we have over-priced table-top radios with tinny speakers. Where is the leap of faith from manufacturers?

db

 

[SUPERCASTER]

What I don't get is the form factor HD Radios are being manufactured and sold as...table-top radios with tinny speakers. Correction. Over-priced table-top radios with tinny speakers.

You'd think that if this was such incredible, ground-breaking, great-sounding technology we would see HD Radio in audiophile tuners and receivers, or as high-end boom boxes, minis and portables. You'd think every manufacturer of car stereo would be on board with several models to choose from.

Instead we have over-priced table-top radios with tinny speakers. Where is the leap of faith from manufacturers?

db

HD supporters claim a quantum listening improvement with HD Radio even with speakers that couldn't do justice to high quality AM stereo. "Believe it OR ELSE!" they say.

 

[dbdigital]

What I don't get is the form factor HD Radios are being manufactured and sold as...table-top radios with tinny speakers. Correction. Over-priced table-top radios with tinny speakers.

You'd think that if this was such incredible, ground-breaking, great-sounding technology we would see HD Radio in audiophile tuners and receivers, or as high-end boom boxes, minis and portables. You'd think every manufacturer of car stereo would be on board with several models to choose from.

Instead we have over-priced table-top radios with tinny speakers. Where is the leap of faith from manufacturers?

db

HD supporters claim a quantum listening improvement with HD Radio even with speakers that couldn't do justice to high quality AM stereo. "Believe it OR ELSE!" they say.

Exactly. How can anyone tell how HD Radio sounds in that configuration. And is the table-top radio what the public really wants?

You get the impression that whoever in China manufactures these radios had an over abundance of table radio cases and other off-the-shelf components and just stuck the HD Radio guts inside them.

db

 

[Chuck]

What I don't get is the form factor HD Radios are being manufactured and sold as...table-top radios with tinny speakers. Correction. Over-priced table-top radios with tinny speakers.

You'd think that if this was such incredible, ground-breaking, great-sounding technology we would see HD Radio in audiophile tuners and receivers, or as high-end boom boxes, minis and portables. You'd think every manufacturer of car stereo would be on board with several models to choose from.

Instead we have over-priced table-top radios with tinny speakers. Where is the leap of faith from manufacturers?

db

As far as I know, there are only two non-automotive HD radios that are actually available at this time, but more are promised soon. I don’t know what the new offerings will sound like, but neither the BA Receptor nor the Polk Audio I-Sonic should be described as "tinny." Both have surprisingly good audio. After all, the primary business of both companies happens to be building quality Hi-Fi loudspeakers. The audio quality of either radio has nothing to do with HD radio. They also sound fine on analog FM. The I-Sonic also plays CD's and XM radio. If you listen to a CD on the I-Sonic, you will probably notice that is sounds much better than the HD radio broadcast of the same material. Ibiquity promised “CD Quality” but I think maybe that was a typo and what they meant was “seedy quality.”

Are these radios ultra high fidelity devices? In a word, "no," but they sound good for what they are. The BA suffers from poor sensitivity in the HD mode. I can't comment on the I-Sonic. Since most HD broadcasters use the exact same processing as their FM analog counterparts, it should come as no surprise that things sound more or less the same in either the HD or analog modes. Currently, there is not much to be gained on FM except for the ability to receive the HD-2 channels, if you can get them. A lot of people report that they can't. The quality of those auxiliary channels will vary, depending on the bit rate that has been chosen by the broadcaster. The more auxiliary channels you have, the worse each one will sound. There is only so much bandwidth to go around.

The reason you haven't seen any portable radios is primarily because of electric current draw, and secondarily because of cost. The current generation of DSP chips that decode IBOC draws a lot of current. You probably wouldn't be very happy if you had to replace six "D" cells every two or three hours. There is also the issue of cost. It is reported that the OEM cost for the processing chips from TI is around $40. If that is true, then it pretty well prices any boom box or walkman type radio off most people's radar screen. Even if the chip set cost $4.00, that is a huge increase in the cost of a radio at the manufacturing level. A radio that retails for $100 must be able to leave the factory for well less than $20.00, or it is not economically viable. There is a lot more to getting a product in your home than merely assembling it somewhere in China.

Let's not forget about Ibiquity's licensing fee. There is a royalty due for each radio produced. Some folks say it is much as $40.00 per radio. I somehow doubt that is true, but if it is, then Ibiquity is either incredibly greedy or just plain stupid. Maybe both. In any case, there is a licensing fee, which will also add to the cost of the finished product. How much are you willing to pay for a portable radio?

As for why there are no high end audiophile type HD radios? I'll hazard a guess that there simply hasn't been any demand for them. Yamaha had an integrated receiver with HD capabilities, but it seems to have disappeared. Has anyone actually seen or heard one? Time will tell if others come to market.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Good points, Chuck!
But I doubt if anyone can REALLY tell the difference between a high quality local FM station and the HD radio stream on those small speakered tabletop radios. The HD must be putrefying the FM signal, as it does the AM stations with HD.
Since most people already "hear" the "wonderful HD difference" the HD stations are promoting, on their old analog radios, I doubt any will be rushing out to spend their hard earned Christmas club account on overpriced HD table or car radios that offer no decernable advantages. They very hard to tune, need bothersome external antennas, offer annoying buffering and rebooting!
Some "benefits"!

 

[700WLW]

Yes, Chuck said it all ! Happily, this is a catch-22 situation for iBiquity - people think they are hearing HD Radio on their existing analog radios, and of course, cannot tell any difference. It is my understanding, that the digital IBOC portion of the signal is only broadcast at 1/100th the power level of the main analog signal, because it would interfere with the analog signal at higher power levels. iBiquity cannot force an all-digital mode, rendering all 800 million analog radios obsolete, so they are stuck with IBOC that will always have coverage/reception problems - the Radiosophy MultiStream HDs are also suffering, as the Receptor HDs (the Polk I-Sonics must be suffering, as well). As Chuck mentioned, there will be no portable HD radios, for the forseeable future - this is a no-win situation for iBiquity (Sirius and XM already have portable radios along with other new portable Internet Radio receivers). Most people would never spend more than $25 for portable analog AM/FM radios, and most clock radios are $10 - $25; there are an estimated 70 - 100 million analog radios sold every year.

 

[hipporadio]

You'd think that if this was such incredible, ground-breaking, great-sounding technology we would see HD Radio in audiophile tuners and receivers

...I don’t know what the new offerings will sound like, but neither the BA Receptor nor the Polk Audio I-Sonic should be described as "tinny." Both have surprisingly good audio. After all, the primary business of both companies happens to be building quality Hi-Fi loudspeakers... If you listen to a CD on the I-Sonic, you will probably notice that is sounds much better than the HD radio broadcast of the same material. Ibiquity promised “CD Quality” but I think maybe that was a typo and what they meant was “seedy quality.”

Are these radios ultra high fidelity devices? In a word, "no," but they sound good for what they are. The BA suffers from poor sensitivity in the HD mode... Currently, there is not much to be gained on FM except for the ability to receive the HD-2 channels, if you can get them. A lot of people report that they can't. The quality of those auxiliary channels will vary, depending on the bit rate that has been chosen by the broadcaster....

The reason you haven't seen any portable radios is primarily because of electric current draw, and secondarily because of cost. The current generation of DSP chips that decode IBOC draws a lot of current... There is also the issue of cost. It is reported that the OEM cost for the processing chips from TI is around $40... Even if the chip set cost $4.00, that is a huge increase in the cost of a radio at the manufacturing level...

Let's not forget about Ibiquity's licensing fee. There is a royalty due for each radio produced. Some folks say it is much as $40.00 per radio...

As for why there are no high end audiophile type HD radios? I'll hazard a guess that there simply hasn't been any demand for them...

Chuck... In this post, you have summed the "situation" up PERFECTLY!

For over 20 years, I have known three guys who have "survived AND thrived" in the high-end "niche" home audio/A-V retail business. ALL will report NO THREAT from the "big boxes" down the street. ALL will confess to their constant craving for new "cutting-edge" A/V items to offer up to a market searching for an excuse to "pop" for new consumer electronic products (many at a high price and profit margin). These savvy retailers will tell you that these products and market are what distinguishes their operations from the very "big boxers" that threaten many of their independent comrades.

ALL have for MANY years enjoyed franchises to sell products from Boston Acoustics and Polk Audio, BUT - NONE have even stocked the radios discussed here for the VERY SIMPLE REASON that "The customer can't find a BENEFIT or value from those radios - NOBODY'S asking about them - so why stock them?" Please note, that last line is in quotes - and came from the mouth of one of them who now operates FIVE stores in THREE large midwest markets. So this lack of consumer interest ISN'T just a Best Buy or Walmart paradigm.

Over the years, I have frequently been a "go to" guy for advice on broadcast-related cunsumer technology for these retailers. I can think of ONLY TWO such technologies they have failed to even casually query me on - AM Stereo and HD Radio. I guess my "so-called expertise" wasn't even required for them to make a root-level rational decision on allocating "floor plan" in their business to the IBOC experiment!

 

[hipporadio]

Good points, Chuck!
But I doubt if anyone can REALLY tell the difference between a high quality local FM station and the HD radio stream on those small speakered tabletop radios. The HD must be putrefying the FM signal, as it does the AM stations with HD.
Since most people already "hear" the "wonderful HD difference" the HD stations are promoting, on their old analog radios, I doubt any will be rushing out to spend their hard earned Christmas club account on overpriced HD table or car radios that offer no decernable advantages. They very hard to tune, need bothersome external antennas, offer annoying buffering and rebooting!
Some "benefits"!

S-Caster... You've made the point many are publishing here. For most of my life - I sold radio time to retailers as "an advertising professional" - and IMHO - I WAS - "they" would tell you so!

So... WHY is a medium so warmed by their coveted CRMC classes (at the local level) FAILING SO MISERABLY in their attempts to join "the digital future"? Is all this "marketing expertise" just a lot of hot gas - or is there a bigger problem?

Now, we will all agree NOT to confuse the efforts of an AE at his/her local station to sell to the local Chevy dealer - with the "bluster" of the IBOC folks - the IBOCers bare FAR greater responsibility in this "failure" then do the right-out-of-college ad execs employed by the "corporates" to "make sales calls", enhance revenue, and promote the VERY VALID positives of radio advertising.

IBOC is (or will become) A FAILURE... Simply BECAUSE of its TECHNICAL "lackluster"... Believe it or not - the "market" is smart enough to figure that out. No "super sales exec" can change that!

 

[Chuck]

Good points, Chuck!
But I doubt if anyone can REALLY tell the difference between a high quality local FM station and the HD radio stream on those small speakered tabletop radios. The HD must be putrefying the FM signal, as it does the AM stations with HD.

Because HD falls back to the analog signal when the HD doesn’t work, stations have to use identical (or usually, the same) processing for each transmitter to make the transition blend together. Therefore, by design, they sound more or less identical. Otherwise, the result is very jarring and most listeners will vote their displeasure by changing to another station. The HD signal can sound better, but as a practical matter, it doesn’t.

Unless you are just into watching the "HD" light come on and off on your radio, there is very little benefit to the listener. In some areas, it is true that multipath may be reduced, but the jury seems to still be out on that one. Somehow I just can't see an effective ad campaign with the headline "HD Reduces Multipath." The public would have absolutely no idea what you were talking about.

As for the HD2 channels, which seem to be the really big feature, when you lose a lock on them, they revert to silence. They also do not travel as far as the HD or analog signal, so except for densely populated areas, they don't offer as much advantage as you'd like them to. If you can’t reliably receive them, they are a moot point.

I know that if I were driving along and the station I was listening to suddenly and/or repeatedly dropped to silence. I would vote with my finger and push another station button on my radio. I think most people would.

 

[hipporadio]

Good points, Chuck!
But I doubt if anyone can REALLY tell the difference between a high quality local FM station and the HD radio stream on those small speakered tabletop radios. The HD must be putrefying the FM signal, as it does the AM stations with HD.

Because HD falls back to the analog signal when the HD doesn’t work, stations have to use identical (or usually, the same) processing for each transmitter to make the transition blend together. Therefore, by design, they sound more or less identical.

In some areas, it is true that multipath may be reduced, but the jury seems to still be out on that one. Somehow I just can't see an effective ad campaign with the headline "HD Reduces Multipath." The public would have absolutely no idea what you were talking about.

I know that if I were driving along and the station I was listening to suddenly and/or repeatedly dropped to silence. I would vote with my finger and push another station button on my radio. I think most people would.

As I posted above... "IBOC is (or will become) A FAILURE... Simply BECAUSE of its TECHNICAL lackluster... Believe it or not - the market is smart enough to figure that out".

As for "multipath zones" or "stereo noise outside the 60dBu contour in analog" - seems the IBOC HD coverage couldn't/wouldn't exist there anyway. So WHERE IS THE "BENEFIT"?

Aren't we arguing about a lady who "won't/or can't perform" ???