Cumulus CHR's are the worst I've ever heard

[atlantaboy]

Q100 is still playing Nelly Furtado, old Britney Spears/Timbaland/Rihanna/Jason DeRulo, and weird stuff like "If I Had You" by Adam Lambert that wasn't even a big CHR hit. This is just in the past few hours. I don't know how anybody could stand to listen to a Cumulus CHR or want them to do well. They are just too slow/safe with some adds, regardless of the genre (unless it's the Matchbox Twenty type which they couldn't wait to add). A "listen at work" CHR station sounds like a lot of fun... :

It's completely unfathomable to you that anyone could possibly like familiar music over unfamiliar? Come on, man, get outside your own head

Cumulus has two major market CHRs beating out their competition, and about 20 other stations doing extremely well, which is a whole lot better than you can say for CBS, or any other company except for Clear Channel - I don't understand why they would change anything

 

[bchristi]

Q100 is still playing Nelly Furtado, old Britney Spears/Timbaland/Rihanna/Jason DeRulo, and weird stuff like "If I Had You" by Adam Lambert that wasn't even a big CHR hit. This is just in the past few hours. I don't know how anybody could stand to listen to a Cumulus CHR or want them to do well. They are just too slow/safe with some adds, regardless of the genre (unless it's the Matchbox Twenty type which they couldn't wait to add). A "listen at work" CHR station sounds like a lot of fun... :

It's completely unfathomable to you that anyone could possibly like familiar music over unfamiliar? Come on, man, get outside your own head

Cumulus has two major market CHRs beating out their competition, and about 20 other stations doing extremely well, which is a whole lot better than you can say for CBS, or any other company except for Clear Channel - I don't understand why they would change anything

Playing familiar music is not the same as continuing to play out the most overplayed songs from 2-3 years ago when regular listeners are sick of them and other stations have nearly forgotten about them, all while neglecting current hits. That doesn't mean there isn't a place for older music on CHR. I don't think a station that immediately throws every new song that drops into power and never plays anything older than a few months is good either. A good station plays a wide selection of currents and sprinkles in recurrents and gold songs. It's enjoyable to hear the recurrents on a station that does it right because they don't overdo it like Cumulus does. Recurrents are fewer and more varied on good CHR stations i.e. you won't hear "Boom Boom Pow" every time you tune in and the recurrents are spaced evenly between current hits from the past six months (which should make up a majority of the playlist). The Cumulus formula would work if they would take a page out of Pop2K's playbook and play a wider selection of older music rather than the overplayed crap people are sick of, and also ditch the "All the Hits" slogan.

 

[atlantaboy]

Q100 is still playing Nelly Furtado, old Britney Spears/Timbaland/Rihanna/Jason DeRulo, and weird stuff like "If I Had You" by Adam Lambert that wasn't even a big CHR hit. This is just in the past few hours. I don't know how anybody could stand to listen to a Cumulus CHR or want them to do well. They are just too slow/safe with some adds, regardless of the genre (unless it's the Matchbox Twenty type which they couldn't wait to add). A "listen at work" CHR station sounds like a lot of fun... :

It's completely unfathomable to you that anyone could possibly like familiar music over unfamiliar? Come on, man, get outside your own head

Cumulus has two major market CHRs beating out their competition, and about 20 other stations doing extremely well, which is a whole lot better than you can say for CBS, or any other company except for Clear Channel - I don't understand why they would change anything

Playing familiar music is not the same as continuing to play out the most overplayed songs from 2-3 years ago when regular listeners are sick of them and other stations have nearly forgotten about them, all while neglecting current hits. That doesn't mean there isn't a place for older music on CHR. I don't think a station that immediately throws every new song that drops into power and never plays anything older than a few months is good either. A good station plays a wide selection of currents and sprinkles in recurrents and gold songs. It's enjoyable to hear the recurrents on a station that does it right because they don't overdo it like Cumulus does. Recurrents are fewer and more varied on good CHR stations i.e. you won't hear "Boom Boom Pow" every time you tune in and the recurrents are spaced evenly between current hits from the past six months (which should make up a majority of the playlist). The Cumulus formula would work if they would take a page out of Pop2K's playbook and play a wider selection of older music rather than the overplayed crap people are sick of, and also ditch the "All the Hits" slogan.

But again, they're winning, both in Houston and Atlanta, and in 20+ other markets - so, obviously people aren't "sick of" the music they play, and the "All The Hits" slogan is working

If you want to talk about not playing "All The Hits," both KKHH and WWPW STILL haven't added Imagine Dragons, which is now #13 on the CHR chart

 

[carolinaradio]

bchristi is exactly right. I don't hear any other CHR stations play stuff like "Say It Right", "The Way I Are", "3", "SOS", etc., or so-so Hot AC hits like "If I Had You" anymore - a station like Channel 96.1 in Charlotte might occasionally dip back to something like "Breakeven" or "How To Save A Life", but they don't go back to old rhythmic songs that haven't held up well (as that kind of music tends not to) or mid-level Hot AC tracks. If you're going to go back 6 years, it'd better be a strong CHR/Hot AC hit crossover. Not some rhythmic track that's been easily forgotten.

Cumulus CHR stations do well in all of these other markets because they have no competition. It's too soon to say it's winning or losing in Atlanta. I will be totally upfront and say I dislike Q100 quite a bit but I do like Power 96.1. Power 96 might be ignoring Imagine Dragons, but how is that any different than Jan Jeffries ignoring the countless other tracks he has?

Sorry, but Power is doing pretty dang well considering they don't have big name talent to the area and aren't very established - if Q100 and Power were on equal footing in mornings, I'd bet Power would be doing better - Q100 has a very established and popular morning show - half a point isn't much. There could be many reasons they're doing well in these "20 markets", they possibly have advantages (music aside) over the competition if they have any. Oh, and since demos don't matter, let's bring big band back to FM. As long as it does well 6+, that's all that matters :

I am so sick of this discussion. It's gone on for years and has never gotten anywhere.

 

[bchristi]

bchristi is exactly right.  I don't hear any other CHR stations play stuff like "Say It Right", "The Way I Are", "3", "SOS", etc., or so-so Hot AC hits like "If I Had You" anymore - a station like Channel 96.1 in Charlotte might occasionally dip back to something like "Breakeven" or "How To Save A Life", but they don't go back to old rhythmic songs that haven't held up well (as that kind of music tends not to) or mid-level Hot AC tracks.  If you're going to go back 6 years, it'd better be a strong CHR/Hot AC hit crossover.  Not some rhythmic track that's been easily forgotten.

Cumulus CHR stations do well in all of these other markets because they have no competition.  It's too soon to say it's winning or losing in Atlanta.  I will be totally upfront and say I dislike Q100 quite a bit but I do like Power 96.1.  Power 96 might be ignoring Imagine Dragons, but how is that any different than Jan Jeffries ignoring the countless other tracks he has?

Sorry, but Power is doing pretty dang well considering they don't have big name talent to the area and aren't very established - if Q100 and Power were on equal footing in mornings, I'd bet Power would be doing better - Q100 has a very established and popular morning show - half a point isn't much.  There could be many reasons they're doing well in these "20 markets", they possibly have advantages (music aside) over the competition if they have any.  Oh, and since demos don't matter, let's bring big band back to FM.  As long as it does well 6+, that's all that matters :

I am so sick of this discussion.  It's gone on for years and has never gotten anywhere.

You hit the nail on the head and I think that's exactly what makes Cumulus CHRs sound so horrible.  The recurrents they do play are horrible songs that were extremely overplayed in their time that haven't aged well.  They insist on not simply playing them every now and then as throwbacks but making them the focus of their stations, sprinkling in only a handful of currents that don't mesh well with the 5-year old rhythmic tracks they keep playing.  It sounds like it could be an iPod on random or a Jack FM.

And I like Channel 96.1 pretty well.  I wasn't a big fan of them when they first tweaked from 96.1 The Beat but they have really found their groove and sound pretty good now.

Oklahoma City is not the most progressive market so you would think a Cumulus formula would be more likely to work here, but CC KJYO is hitting 7.2 while Cumulus KKWD is only hitting 2.7.  Back in the Citadel days, KKWD was #1 in the market and that was even with a measly 6kw signal compared to KJYO's 90kw signal.

I wish Jan Jeffries would take a look at this thread and respond.  I would like to see what he has to say about it.

 

[atlantaboy]

I wish Jan Jeffries would take a look at this thread and respond. I would like to see what he has to say about it.

Why would he care? His big stations are WINNING, and he's got about 20 others that are doing extremely well

Why would he care if a bunch of posters in a forum where mysteriously 90% of the posters favor Rhythmic-leaning music, and where a whole slew of posters work for CBS (which is probably afraid of Cumulus expanding ever more), don't like his stations?

 

[bchristi]

I wish Jan Jeffries would take a look at this thread and respond.  I would like to see what he has to say about it.

Why would he care?  His big stations are WINNING, and he's got about 20 others that are doing extremely well

Why would he care if a bunch of posters in a forum where mysteriously 90% of the posters favor Rhythmic-leaning music, and where a whole slew of posters work for CBS (which is probably afraid of Cumulus expanding ever more), don't like his stations?

His formula doesn't work in every market.  Just because he is winning in a few doesn't mean all his stations are winning.  Those that are winning are probably doing so on heritage or because they lack competition.

Name a market that has had a longstanding ClearChannel or CBS CHR that had a new Cumulus CHR come in and win. If you can, then I will agree that in THAT specific market, playing 3-5 year old stale rhythmic tracks is a winning formula.

 

[carolinaradio]

??? So now people work for CBS? How do you know? You pulled that same line out on the Atlanta board when you didn't like what people were saying about the Alternative station. Just because people like something doesn't mean they work at that radio company or work in the radio industry at all.

Cumulus CHR's win in markets where they have ESTABLISHMENT vs. the competition or by default because they have none. How well have all of the "I" stations gone over? Things like morning shows can carry stations, regardless of who owns them or format. Look at WNNX in Atlanta as an example in your market. It's not a matter of rock vs. rhythmic - Cumulus has been just as slow with Alternative/"edgy" titles in the past as they've been with rhythmic, so that's not an argument - what is an argument is whether people on here like hearing NEW music as it ascends up the chart, like Clear Channel, CBS, Entercom, (and Citadel used to) and yes, the majority do. I LIKE Alternative rock and I also LIKE a lot of Rhythmic tracks. Go back on here and look how many times I have praised Channel 96.1 in Charlotte...yeah, I really like rhythmic CHR's.

What I don't like is a lot of old pop/rock tracks that weren't hits or were burned out years ago, or weird old rhythmic tracks that I had forgotten about that haven't held up well.

 

[RollTide]

Cumulus CHR's win in markets where they have ESTABLISHMENT vs. the competition or by default because they have none. How well have all of the "I" stations gone over? Things like morning shows can carry stations, regardless of who owns them or format.

I have to agree with you there. Established and heritage Cumulus CHR's perform better. New start up Cumulus CHR's going against other established CHR's have been failing over and over again. In Mobile they tried to go up against WABB (before it sold) multiple times with "I" and "Hot". It failed each time. WABB had to be sold and flipped for Cumulus to try to take over as CHR leader and try CHR for a third time. Look at another Alabama battle right now in Birmingham. Cumulus "The Vibe" flipped last year against established CC "The Q". It still hasen't come close to beating The Q yet, at it's music is actually pretty decent, especially for Cumulus. How about Nashville. Cumulus flips to CHR as another "I" against established CC "The River," and it's numbers are still abysmal. They may concede that it may not ever beat The River because of it's inferior signal, but if it were done right it could still be more successful than it is. bchristi's market is another example of KKWD losing against its competition and being on a downward spiral ever since Cumulus took over, and still no changes have been made to correct the problems. Yes Cumulus CHR's do well in some markets but the bottom line is, their formula doesn't work in all of them, and instead of sticking with it and forcing it on people they should adjust their approach to each market they are in and do what works for each market.

 

[chrocket87]

Cumulus CHR's win in markets where they have ESTABLISHMENT vs. the competition or by default because they have none. How well have all of the "I" stations gone over? Things like morning shows can carry stations, regardless of who owns them or format. Look at WNNX in Atlanta as an example in your market. It's not a matter of rock vs. rhythmic - Cumulus has been just as slow with Alternative/"edgy" titles in the past as they've been with rhythmic, so that's not an argument -

I actually like the job Cumulus does with Alternative rock. Between the former 99x, the Zone in my home market of Toledo, and WRRV in NY, they actually do a great job, minus the grunge overkill, but who doesn't burn out grunge tracks. While, yes, they're still pretty conservative unless it's an established band from the 90s, they beat the beloved Radio 104.5 to a good number of songs (Joy Formidable is one example I have off the top of my head).

 

[carolinaradio]

Cumulus CHR's win in markets where they have ESTABLISHMENT vs. the competition or by default because they have none. How well have all of the "I" stations gone over? Things like morning shows can carry stations, regardless of who owns them or format. Look at WNNX in Atlanta as an example in your market. It's not a matter of rock vs. rhythmic - Cumulus has been just as slow with Alternative/"edgy" titles in the past as they've been with rhythmic, so that's not an argument -

I actually like the job Cumulus does with Alternative rock. Between the former 99x, the Zone in my home market of Toledo, and WRRV in NY, they actually do a great job, minus the grunge overkill, but who doesn't burn out grunge tracks. While, yes, they're still pretty conservative unless it's an established band from the 90s, they beat the beloved Radio 104.5 to a good number of songs (Joy Formidable is one example I have off the top of my head).

I am not very familiar with Cumulus' Alternative stations, except for when they ran 99X in Atlanta. I was actually referring to the fact that they've been slow with some Alternative tracks on their CHR's.

Again - what ills me with Cumulus' CHR strategy is that they force it on every single market. Jan wants every station to sound like Q100 with the "listen at work" approach (I predict that eventually in Atlanta Power and Q will flip-flop with the lead, as Power becomes more established; Q100 has a huge morning show going for them). There's no reason for 95SX in Charleston, SC to sound like Q100 in Atlanta, GA. 95SX in Charleston is playing crap like "You're Beautiful" by James Blunt, "Like a G6", "Disturbia" by Rihanna, "In The Dark" by DEV (Cumulus LOVES this song), "Solo" by Iyaz (this wasn't even a hit!), "Carryout" by Timbaland, and "Love In This Club" by 50 Cent but won't play "Thrift Shop" or "Suit & Tie" during the day. That wouldn't have dare happened under Citadel.

Of course, 95SX is "winning" because they have no competition. I'm actually surprised at the comments that Cumulus CHR's aren't rhythmic friendly...a lot of their gold tracks are old rhythmic songs, that as I say, have been very disposable.

 

[bluestar4]

Cumulus CHR's win in markets where they have ESTABLISHMENT vs. the competition or by default because they have none. How well have all of the "I" stations gone over? Things like morning shows can carry stations, regardless of who owns them or format. Look at WNNX in Atlanta as an example in your market. It's not a matter of rock vs. rhythmic - Cumulus has been just as slow with Alternative/"edgy" titles in the past as they've been with rhythmic, so that's not an argument -

I actually like the job Cumulus does with Alternative rock. Between the former 99x, the Zone in my home market of Toledo, and WRRV in NY, they actually do a great job, minus the grunge overkill, but who doesn't burn out grunge tracks. While, yes, they're still pretty conservative unless it's an established band from the 90s, they beat the beloved Radio 104.5 to a good number of songs (Joy Formidable is one example I have off the top of my head).

Cumulus' Alternative Rock stations are great. They actually still add new songs by artists like The Offspring, Alice In Chains, and Green Day that a lot of "Alternative" stations have started ignoring for Ho Hey 3.0, while not adding the songs you have to question whether or not they belong on Alternative until they're higher up the chart. The grunge helps break up the spew of lighter songs to give the stations some diversity. I will say that KENZ is their worst one. OneRepublic, Ed Sheeran, and Phillip Phillips are not Alt artists, stop putting them in power!

Back to Cumulus CHR playlists, Cumulus has actually started playing the new Fall Out Boy song even though it's still in the 30s. So they can still add Alternative songs early if they choose.

 

[atlantaboy]

Name a market that has had a longstanding ClearChannel or CBS CHR that had a new Cumulus CHR come in and win.

Name a market that has had a longstanding ClearChannel or Cumulus CHR that had a new CBS CHR come in and win...or, even better, a CBS CHR that's winning at all against a full-signal competitor, or even in the Top 5 for their market... :

Say what you want about Cumulus, but it's in a lot better position with its CHRs than CBS is

And, yes, carolinaradio, a lot of people on this board work for CBS - I said it in the other thread, and I'll say it again here - that's why there's so much anti-Cumulus sentiment here, and why an abnormally bizarre number of posters mysteriously all want CHRs to lean Rhythmic

 

[bchristi]

Cumulus CHR's win in markets where they have ESTABLISHMENT vs. the competition or by default because they have none.  How well have all of the "I" stations gone over?  Things like morning shows can carry stations, regardless of who owns them or format.

I have to agree with you there. Established and heritage Cumulus CHR's perform better. New start up Cumulus CHR's going against other established CHR's have been failing over and over again. In Mobile they tried to go up against WABB (before it sold) multiple times with "I" and "Hot". It failed each time. WABB had to be sold and flipped for Cumulus to try to take over as CHR leader and try CHR for a third time. Look at another Alabama battle right now in Birmingham. Cumulus "The Vibe" flipped last year against established CC "The Q". It still hasen't come close to beating The Q yet, at it's music is actually pretty decent, especially for Cumulus. How about Nashville. Cumulus flips to CHR as another "I" against established CC "The River," and it's numbers are still abysmal. They may concede that it may not ever beat The River because of it's inferior signal, but if it were done right it could still be more successful than it is. bchristi's market is another example of KKWD losing against its competition and being on a downward spiral ever since Cumulus took over, and still no changes have been made to correct the problems. Yes Cumulus CHR's do well in some markets but the bottom line is, their formula doesn't work in all of them, and instead of sticking with it and forcing it on people they should adjust their approach to each market they are in and do what works for each market.

Correct. Jan Jeffries is so dedicated to what he thinks is the best formula that he would rather his stations fail than tailor it to each market. Not doing so is pure insanity.

And about CBS, I am not partial to them. I like their CHRs better than Cumulus though. ClearChannel CHRs are among the best in my opinion. I honestly don't care what company owns it as long as it sounds good. Jeffries should let local stations decide what to play and not to play rather than forcing every station to stick to his formula which DOES NOT work more often than it does. If he let that happen, I would be cool with Cumulus.

And I do like rhythmic leaning CHRs but by no means should every CHR lean rhythmic. It's all about what's best suited for the market the station is in. KLAL was one of the best CHRs before Cumulus destroyed it and it was alternative rock leaning.

 

[atlantaboy]

Jeffries should let local stations decide what to play and not to play rather than forcing every station to stick to his formula which DOES NOT work more often than it does

That's not the case, though - Cumulus has more stations winning, or at or near the top of their market, than stations that are losing - people can give any one of a million excuses why the majority of Cumulus stations are winning, or successful, but the fact is that they are, and anyone running a successful corporation isn't going to change their plan

IMO the question is whether they would be more successful if they gave up central control of the playlists - that might be true, but we have no way to prove it - and as much as I hate that Cumulus ruined a lot of Citadel stations, the ratings of most of those stations have remained high, or close to where they were under Citadel

BTW there's no way Jeffries is keeping centralized control of playlists just because he feels like it, is on a power trip, etc. - it has to be a money-saving measure in terms of not having to hire more experienced PDs, etc.

 

[bchristi]

Jeffries should let local stations decide what to play and not to play rather than forcing every station to stick to his formula which DOES NOT work more often than it does

That's not the case, though - Cumulus has more stations winning, or at or near the top of their market, than stations that are losing - people can give any one of a million excuses why the majority of Cumulus stations are winning, or successful, but the fact is that they are, and anyone running a successful corporation isn't going to change their plan

IMO the question is whether they would be more successful if they gave up central control of the playlists - that might be true, but we have no way to prove it - and as much as I hate that Cumulus ruined a lot of Citadel stations, the ratings of most of those stations have remained high, or close to where they were under Citadel

BTW there's no way Jeffries is keeping centralized control of playlists just because he feels like it, is on a power trip, etc. - it has to be a money-saving measure in terms of not having to hire more experienced PDs, etc.

If this is the case and he's not willing to budge on his formula in markets where it's not working, he should flip the stations in losing markets to another format other than CHR. Continuing to do the same thing and expect different results is insanity.

 

[atlantaboy]

^I'm just guessing, here, but it might be cheaper to keep those stations with inexpensive staffing, rather than flip them and then have to hire more expensive staff

Both CBS and Clear Channel hold on to low-rated CHRs as well

 

[chrocket87]

99.7 Now/SF is top five in all of it's target demos against two CC competitors.
KAMP is top five 18-34.
WODS is doing the same, ratings-wise as KRBE.

 

[atlantaboy]

99.7 Now/SF is top five in all of it's target demos against two CC competitors.
KAMP is top five 18-34.
WODS is doing the same, ratings-wise as KRBE.

I didn't say Top 5 in its demo, I said Top 5 in the market - being #5 out of 5 18-34 stations is nothing to brag about - even the lower rated Cumulus CHRs are still Top 5 in their demo

There are no CBS CHRs which are Top 5 in their market

 

[chrocket87]

Advertisers don't buy 6+, they buy demos.
Notice how KRBE isn't even "top 5 out of 5"?
And no, not even the lowest are. No KRBE, no KLIF, no WNFN, no I (Indy).
Again, stop making excuses against Cumulus competitors just because Cumulus pays your bills.