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Cumulus Fort Walton Beach
- Thread starter MickJ
- Start date
Let's break down the choices:
-AC or Country... Cumulus won't allow 100.3 to use any flavor these formats for 5 years. I assume Classic Hits and "Jack" are flavors of AC and therefore out, Classic Country would also be out.
-Top 40... Too much competition from Z96, Fly 92.1, Panama City and Mobile stations.
-Rock... 99 Rock is a good heritage station. Wave 102 is a great station. Both of these stations mix in a lot of classic rock with the newer stuff so maybe that means FWB needs a Classic Rocker of it's own? FWB gets TK101 and 97X for the younger active rockers. Pure Rock, AAA, Active, and Modern rock would just have too much competition.
-News and/or Talk... WFTW and WNWF are the locals and Dothan's WRJM-FM reaches the market but all these stations have poor signals. 100.3's sister station to be, WTKE, programs Talk on weekdays and Sports on nights and weekends. They could easilly move the talk over to 100.3 and make WTKE pure sports again.
-Various Religious formats... are well represented on the non-commercial band.
-Various Urban formats... Fort Walton's never had one. Probably no profit.
-Smooth Jazz, Standards, Classical, Spanish... not likely.
-Oldies... What about oldies? WRKN, "Rockin' Oldies", that would be cool.
I'd say the most likely formats for 100.3 are Classic Rock, News/Talk, and possibly Oldies. I'd go with News/Talk because Fort Walton doesn't have TV news, so a well produced local news show on an FM signal should draw listeners. Oldies would have the least competition, but the market is probably too young. As for Classic Rock... if the rumors say Classic Rock, I believe the rumors.
-AC or Country... Cumulus won't allow 100.3 to use any flavor these formats for 5 years. I assume Classic Hits and "Jack" are flavors of AC and therefore out, Classic Country would also be out.
-Top 40... Too much competition from Z96, Fly 92.1, Panama City and Mobile stations.
-Rock... 99 Rock is a good heritage station. Wave 102 is a great station. Both of these stations mix in a lot of classic rock with the newer stuff so maybe that means FWB needs a Classic Rocker of it's own? FWB gets TK101 and 97X for the younger active rockers. Pure Rock, AAA, Active, and Modern rock would just have too much competition.
-News and/or Talk... WFTW and WNWF are the locals and Dothan's WRJM-FM reaches the market but all these stations have poor signals. 100.3's sister station to be, WTKE, programs Talk on weekdays and Sports on nights and weekends. They could easilly move the talk over to 100.3 and make WTKE pure sports again.
-Various Religious formats... are well represented on the non-commercial band.
-Various Urban formats... Fort Walton's never had one. Probably no profit.
-Smooth Jazz, Standards, Classical, Spanish... not likely.
-Oldies... What about oldies? WRKN, "Rockin' Oldies", that would be cool.
I'd say the most likely formats for 100.3 are Classic Rock, News/Talk, and possibly Oldies. I'd go with News/Talk because Fort Walton doesn't have TV news, so a well produced local news show on an FM signal should draw listeners. Oldies would have the least competition, but the market is probably too young. As for Classic Rock... if the rumors say Classic Rock, I believe the rumors.
poledo said: "100.3's sister station to be, WTKE, programs Talk on weekdays and Sports on nights and weekends. They could easilly move the talk over to 100.3 and make WTKE pure sports again."
I have made the same observation about talk being an opportunity in that market but you are the first one I've read or heard who agrees with that.
I wonder if WTKE will eventually go to Cumulus. The FCC has approved it but the sale is tied up in federal court because of Qantum's allegations that Ron Hale violated the contract to sell it to them. Further, they accuse Cumulus of tortious interference. The FCC has allowed Hale to make the moves he's making at his own risk. The federal court hasn't ruled on the matter last time I checked.
I have made the same observation about talk being an opportunity in that market but you are the first one I've read or heard who agrees with that.
I wonder if WTKE will eventually go to Cumulus. The FCC has approved it but the sale is tied up in federal court because of Qantum's allegations that Ron Hale violated the contract to sell it to them. Further, they accuse Cumulus of tortious interference. The FCC has allowed Hale to make the moves he's making at his own risk. The federal court hasn't ruled on the matter last time I checked.
What do you mean the FCC has allowed Ron Hale to make moves at his own risk? Similar to Tom Birch's WWAV business "transactions"
--- the FCC assumes people will do the right thing to not loose their license. Where is the Oh-Hale situation? What's on WTKE when it's
on the air? The 93.3 thing was part of the Cumulus swaps. Does Hale have any horse in that race? Also, the Quantum allegations are
true from what I have seen. I assume --- that Hale and Cumulus figured Quantum would rather not spend a million on legal fees going
up against a company used to a billion dollars in legal fees. Looks like Quantum has not only grounds, but staying power. It just will
last forever in court, etc. Is Hale bringing in any revenue? For the life of me, I don't see how he gets away with pissing everybody off
and running such a lame operation. The place is a small market, advertisers have to know of his rep. Is the IRS still chasing him?
What a joke. That God I got out of that place with $11 in my pocket. FWB needs another 4 or 5 radio stations beaming in. NYC has
1/2 what the Gulf Coast has. Is the going rate still under $10???
--- the FCC assumes people will do the right thing to not loose their license. Where is the Oh-Hale situation? What's on WTKE when it's
on the air? The 93.3 thing was part of the Cumulus swaps. Does Hale have any horse in that race? Also, the Quantum allegations are
true from what I have seen. I assume --- that Hale and Cumulus figured Quantum would rather not spend a million on legal fees going
up against a company used to a billion dollars in legal fees. Looks like Quantum has not only grounds, but staying power. It just will
last forever in court, etc. Is Hale bringing in any revenue? For the life of me, I don't see how he gets away with pissing everybody off
and running such a lame operation. The place is a small market, advertisers have to know of his rep. Is the IRS still chasing him?
What a joke. That God I got out of that place with $11 in my pocket. FWB needs another 4 or 5 radio stations beaming in. NYC has
1/2 what the Gulf Coast has. Is the going rate still under $10???
Here's an interesting excerpt from the Asset Exchange Agreement, filed March 23rd, for 98.1:
Section 3.12
..."There is no litigation, arbitration, dispute, proceeding or investigation
(“Litigation”) pending by or against, or, to SBI’s knowledge, threatened against WTKE, the
WTKE Assets, or SBI which relates to or affects the WTKE Assets or the business of WTKE or
which materially interferes or could reasonably be expected to materially interfere with SBI’s (1)
right, title or interest in and to the WTKE Assets, (2) operation of WTKE, or (3) ability to
transfer the WTKE Assets to Cumulus free of such Litigation."...
Star claims there's no lawsuit. Has it been settled? Did Cumulus pay off Quantum? Is Star lying?
In the same file, Cumulus' Radio Market Analysis lists Quantum as the pending owner of 98.1.
Section 3.12
..."There is no litigation, arbitration, dispute, proceeding or investigation
(“Litigation”) pending by or against, or, to SBI’s knowledge, threatened against WTKE, the
WTKE Assets, or SBI which relates to or affects the WTKE Assets or the business of WTKE or
which materially interferes or could reasonably be expected to materially interfere with SBI’s (1)
right, title or interest in and to the WTKE Assets, (2) operation of WTKE, or (3) ability to
transfer the WTKE Assets to Cumulus free of such Litigation."...
Star claims there's no lawsuit. Has it been settled? Did Cumulus pay off Quantum? Is Star lying?
In the same file, Cumulus' Radio Market Analysis lists Quantum as the pending owner of 98.1.
Star Broadcasting used to be called Gulf Breeze Media, right? The salesmen at Gulf Breeze Media were crooks. They tried to sell me advertising on 92.1 out of Destin and wouldn't take "no" for an answer. My business is in Pensacola and I wasn't interested in advertising in Fort Walton. They were presenting themselves to me as a Pensacola station based out of the south Pensacola suburb of Gulf Breeze.
J
Jeff_Davis
Guest
Sorry to ask you to re-hash what's going on there between Star, Cumulus, and Quantum, but I don't know this story. I live in Cincinnati and we vacation in Destin just about every year, and I've gotten to know and enjoy a lot of the stations there.
I was looking on Radio-Locator and I noticed the AM on 1400. I don't remember that station. What's on it?
I was looking on Radio-Locator and I noticed the AM on 1400. I don't remember that station. What's on it?
I have no idea what's on 1400 right now, they have a horrible signal that doesn't even reach Navarre. They were WFAV playing standards, then they were WJGC with some type of urban format (when it was supposedly urban, I couldn't even pick up this station in Fort Walton!). According to the paperwork filed with the FCC on the WPGG & WTKE deals, Cumulus has an option to buy 1400 from Star.
As for the situation between Star, Cumulus, and Quantum, all I know is what I've read on this board and the old board.
Star managed to get contracts to pruchase 93.3 and 98.1 and filed to move them both from Alabama to a tower in downtown Fort Walton. They did this without deep pockets... so they had no choice but to sell the stations once they moved in. Star made an agreement to sell both stations to Quantum and signed a contract.
Then Cumulus came into the market and bought out the Holladay stations (99 Rock, Coast 100, Country 105.5, Z96, and WFTW). Cumulus then approched Star and made a better offer. Cumulus would pay for the two new move-in stations (about 900k for 98.1 and 1.5 million for 93.3) AND give Star Class A 100.3 and Class C3 (but directional) 105.5. This deal gave Star 2 stations for free, so they backed out of the Quantum contract and sold to Cumulus. Quantum sued Star and Cumulus and that case is still in court.
As for the situation between Star, Cumulus, and Quantum, all I know is what I've read on this board and the old board.
Star managed to get contracts to pruchase 93.3 and 98.1 and filed to move them both from Alabama to a tower in downtown Fort Walton. They did this without deep pockets... so they had no choice but to sell the stations once they moved in. Star made an agreement to sell both stations to Quantum and signed a contract.
Then Cumulus came into the market and bought out the Holladay stations (99 Rock, Coast 100, Country 105.5, Z96, and WFTW). Cumulus then approched Star and made a better offer. Cumulus would pay for the two new move-in stations (about 900k for 98.1 and 1.5 million for 93.3) AND give Star Class A 100.3 and Class C3 (but directional) 105.5. This deal gave Star 2 stations for free, so they backed out of the Quantum contract and sold to Cumulus. Quantum sued Star and Cumulus and that case is still in court.
J
Jeff_Davis
Guest
Thank you for that quick summary.
I love listening to WWAV when I'm down there. When we first went to Destin in 1997, WWAV was a real rock station and they had that big WAVE-102 step van at FuddPuckers one night. What a shock to come back a few years later and hear how laid back they'd become.
What happened to the former morning show on MIX? I remember it was live and local last April, but now I see they have Kid Kraddock.
My wife was actually willing to let me apply for jobs in Destin/Fort Walton Beach because we love it there. But, she's a northern Kentucky girl AND an only child so we'll be statying in Cincy.
I love listening to WWAV when I'm down there. When we first went to Destin in 1997, WWAV was a real rock station and they had that big WAVE-102 step van at FuddPuckers one night. What a shock to come back a few years later and hear how laid back they'd become.
What happened to the former morning show on MIX? I remember it was live and local last April, but now I see they have Kid Kraddock.
My wife was actually willing to let me apply for jobs in Destin/Fort Walton Beach because we love it there. But, she's a northern Kentucky girl AND an only child so we'll be statying in Cincy.
Jeff -- Its rare that a man should not take advice of his wife, but if you both want a little advice that'll save your marriage and add years to your life --- Destin is for relaxing and vacations & NOT business or work --- especially in radio. In fact, besides PCB and hell maybe it's#3
on the don't try going there plan.
Mark Carter and his dad orginally owned WAVE 102. They sold to Tom Birch who was the ratings rival to Arbitron. He bought WAVE and
managed to never make "a payment" and finally sold to Quantum. It was good when the Carters had it --- lite AC and then it was for
a while what you remember and even Eagle 102 Classic Rock. You remember when 98.1 went from CR to Top 40 in 96? Wave was lighter
for the 98.1 Classic Rock period. BTW 99 Rock and 98.1 Classic Rock were #1 & #2 along with Country 105.5 (which flipped from Oldies.)
Gator and Suzanne (I think Peck) were the good AM morning team. Mix was great after it flipped from Jazz. In the day it was as good as it
got. Mgmt and ad decline and in fighting screwed it up there. She finally ditched radio for good. I think she was into
nursing or teaching or something. Was a really nice person that just got beat down. Didn't know Gator that well. That was years ago,
I don't know who you heard before Kraddock.
96.5 was a station that took 20+ years to finally get on the air. An old dentist (Dr. Matowsky?) tried for years but he ticked everyone
off so bad that he got no where. He died in an accident at his home. Hollidays got it and Cumulus has it now as Z.
The one person I could say has the best station, mindset and honesty is Mark Carter who still fights the corps with Seabreeze 106.3.
There may be alot of good people there, but it seems to be a sad market for revenue or integrity, which is a shame. I was blown away
by the total number of con artists and lairs. I guess you get that when you have such an over radioed market.
I am glad to be long gone from the days of radio and not sleeping at night wondering how you make it in a $5 market. But, the beach is
great and now, I actually get to see it and not listen to radio much on vacation. I never saw the beach until I was out of that radio
market. You'd be miserable. With all the 100 stations beaming in, it's just crazy.
on the don't try going there plan.
Mark Carter and his dad orginally owned WAVE 102. They sold to Tom Birch who was the ratings rival to Arbitron. He bought WAVE and
managed to never make "a payment" and finally sold to Quantum. It was good when the Carters had it --- lite AC and then it was for
a while what you remember and even Eagle 102 Classic Rock. You remember when 98.1 went from CR to Top 40 in 96? Wave was lighter
for the 98.1 Classic Rock period. BTW 99 Rock and 98.1 Classic Rock were #1 & #2 along with Country 105.5 (which flipped from Oldies.)
Gator and Suzanne (I think Peck) were the good AM morning team. Mix was great after it flipped from Jazz. In the day it was as good as it
got. Mgmt and ad decline and in fighting screwed it up there. She finally ditched radio for good. I think she was into
nursing or teaching or something. Was a really nice person that just got beat down. Didn't know Gator that well. That was years ago,
I don't know who you heard before Kraddock.
96.5 was a station that took 20+ years to finally get on the air. An old dentist (Dr. Matowsky?) tried for years but he ticked everyone
off so bad that he got no where. He died in an accident at his home. Hollidays got it and Cumulus has it now as Z.
The one person I could say has the best station, mindset and honesty is Mark Carter who still fights the corps with Seabreeze 106.3.
There may be alot of good people there, but it seems to be a sad market for revenue or integrity, which is a shame. I was blown away
by the total number of con artists and lairs. I guess you get that when you have such an over radioed market.
I am glad to be long gone from the days of radio and not sleeping at night wondering how you make it in a $5 market. But, the beach is
great and now, I actually get to see it and not listen to radio much on vacation. I never saw the beach until I was out of that radio
market. You'd be miserable. With all the 100 stations beaming in, it's just crazy.
J
Jeff_Davis
Guest
Thanks for that advice. I figured it wouldn't be lucrative in a market that does seem to have TONS of stations. The morning show I heard on MIX would've been on the air in April 2005. That's the ;ast time we were down there.
How's Pensacola?
How's Pensacola?
I stumbled upon an ad promoting a 50,000 watt FM,not that far from Panama Cityquoting their rate as low as $1.00 per spot.I know that they are paying tower rent,studio rent,and paid close to a million for the station.How many dollar a holler ads will it take to break even with that situation?
fwillis said:
With all of the free ads on top of the $1.00, I'd say the station should breakeven in 3281 or early 3282.
Another interesting thought:
If you didn't have a corporate briefcase full of $$$, how long would it you to pay off $30 Million for WYZB, WKSM, WZNS and WNCV (and is it WFTW-AM) and
then buyout a couple of dogs that have to be re-signaled (93.3 and 98.1) and payoff Ron Hale, get involved in a lawsuit and all along offer $5.00 spots?
as for Jeff Davis ---
By the grace of God you listened. For me, the market was also a labor of love and ended up being so damned mean and cut throat and full of untrusting people that I'd ended up being physically sick for years after I went back for visits. It's like 100 rats or cockroaches having one microscopic piece of food to fight over. PCB is not much better.
When radio continues it's decline from new mediums and corporate radio can't hide the truth in the 1,000 station congloms you'll see some bit of sanity
return. My point is how could a 50kw FM station sell for $450,000 in the mid-90's and a similar 50kw station in the same market sell for $7M less than a decade
later? I can't make the math work. Can anybody else????
Oh, where to start?
Jeff, you asked about Pensacola. Yes, it's more like a normal market than almost any other on the Gulf Coast. Because of the military and an array of light industry P'cola doesn't rely so much on touristas. And it's not quite as "over-radio'ed" as PCB or FWB--but it still has more signals than it needs. Plus 5 TV sticks and a very strong newspaper. WXBM does extremely well (around $5 million a year???) but the rest do less than half of that, with several just scraping by.
Tibbs, you know that selling price is either a cashflow multiple or a "Greater Fool" number. It's not impossible to imagine a 50-kw FM in any of these markets doing, say, $1.2 million in revenue and $600K in BCF... then getting an 11.5 multiple. Or (more likely) having some dumbass Yankee falling in love with Destin and paying WAYYYYYYYY more than it's worth. If I recall correctly, that's happened once or twice already...
As far as Island 106 goes, yeah--the 12 share (or whatever it was) was more BS than not. But it's been up in that range before, so it's not SO far out of range. Just on the high side of reality for that property.
Jeff, you asked about Pensacola. Yes, it's more like a normal market than almost any other on the Gulf Coast. Because of the military and an array of light industry P'cola doesn't rely so much on touristas. And it's not quite as "over-radio'ed" as PCB or FWB--but it still has more signals than it needs. Plus 5 TV sticks and a very strong newspaper. WXBM does extremely well (around $5 million a year???) but the rest do less than half of that, with several just scraping by.
Tibbs, you know that selling price is either a cashflow multiple or a "Greater Fool" number. It's not impossible to imagine a 50-kw FM in any of these markets doing, say, $1.2 million in revenue and $600K in BCF... then getting an 11.5 multiple. Or (more likely) having some dumbass Yankee falling in love with Destin and paying WAYYYYYYYY more than it's worth. If I recall correctly, that's happened once or twice already...
As far as Island 106 goes, yeah--the 12 share (or whatever it was) was more BS than not. But it's been up in that range before, so it's not SO far out of range. Just on the high side of reality for that property.
redneckriviera said:Oh, where to start?
Jeff, you asked about Pensacola. Yes, it's more like a normal market than almost any other on the Gulf Coast. Because of the military and an array of light industry P'cola doesn't rely so much on touristas. And it's not quite as "over-radio'ed" as PCB or FWB--but it still has more signals than it needs. Plus 5 TV sticks and a very strong newspaper. WXBM does extremely well (around $5 million a year???) but the rest do less than half of that, with several just scraping by.
Tibbs, you know that selling price is either a cashflow multiple or a "Greater Fool" number. It's not impossible to imagine a 50-kw FM in any of these markets doing, say, $1.2 million in revenue and $600K in BCF... then getting an 11.5 multiple. Or (more likely) having some dumbass Yankee falling in love with Destin and paying WAYYYYYYYY more than it's worth. If I recall correctly, that's happened once or twice already...
As far as Island 106 goes, yeah--the 12 share (or whatever it was) was more BS than not. But it's been up in that range before, so it's not SO far out of range. Just on the high side of reality for that property.
You are so right on all of this RNR!
Like real estate - in the 30-A area. You have to get in on the beginning of a wave (ha!) to make any money. I paid way under $1 M for a 100kw signal when it
was #2 in the market and billing less than a $1 M. It never got above that and to this day it never has that I know of. I think it's 100% sure, still. After
expenses it netted less than $100,000. But, the big boys $got$ the FCC to $allow$ more station ownership in a market and the buying frenzy started. They
didn't really look at multiples or numbers, they looked at signal strength (or potential to move the signal) and they paid way to much. The Multiple was
between 40 and 50. That being said, I never made any real money or lost that much, and because they came in and paid to much, it allowed me to be
liquid quickly. I bought beach houses and played the flipping game. What turned out to be a potentially horrible nightmare was salvaged by a little group
out of Texas. I'll always be greatful. Timing, location and timing are everything. I still think timing, mainly made the difference, although certainly FWB/Destin's
growth was just beginning to really go through the roof in the mid-90's. Still, though I wouldn't jump on any station over $1.2-$1.5M with a good to great
signal today unless I was writing them a check (debt-free) and planning on selling ads myself (no way) and knowing that everyday would be stressful and
you'd be treated like a vulture because of all the salesmen on the streets selling dead air. Yuck. I cringe just typing this. Still, I happened to do great because
of timing. Ron Hale should have done fine, but he took another course. Why, I dunno. I guess that's just him. You pay for it in health, stress, shortened
life and financially for sure. I won't beat Hale up. I feel sorry for him, actually because he'll pay. Tom Birch did a similar thing with Wave and he's had it
rough ever since. A lot of that comes back to haunt you quickly. Mark Carter from Seabreeze is just the opposite. A world class fantastic friend to this day.
Other "raydio people" in Deausttin laugh at him, but he focuses on his game and screws with their minds because I guess he is so ethical, honest and just
himself that most in the industry cannot fathom those traits (sorry to say.) The Yankee concept is a good one. The best part is the attitudes of arrogance and superiority that you get from radio execs using other peoples money and home buyers on the beach using bank money and thinking they are so damned
cool for paying 10 times the price of land or houses than 5-10 years ago and the radio gig is no different. Suckers for sure. And there is always someone
willing to take advantage of the situation.
Tibbs, I appreciate your observations. Gotta admire Carter for doing it the right way and bucking the Big Guys. The growth in those markets will probably feed the "Greater Fool" process for another few years, but sooner or later there could be a shakeout. Wouldn't be shocked to see Qantam, Double O and/or Magic holding a fire sale just to get the hell out of there. Or at least shake off a an underperforminng stick at a bargain price to pay the bills. As you said, the key would be to be able to buy at the right price so the operating numbers actually work. And that's getting harder and harder to do anywhere in America--much less Radio Hell.
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