There's nothing to explain. Gregg found every top 10 station in the top 50 markets, and found that 97% are on full-power FMs, including 36 markets with no AMs in the top 10.
That's a sign of weakness, not strength.
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Buffalo Cumulus was planning to shut down Talk 1270 last Friday
- Thread starter DavidZ
- Start date
That's a sign of weakness, not strength.
No, we can discern the 12+ (diary) or 6+ (PPM) ratings. Those are given away for free because they are valueless
Two stations with at peak a 12+ 15 share in a market with 10 or more viable FM stations that outperform in the "sales demos" astoundingly.
We don't see success. We see a gradual decline as AM listeners age out.
In the sales demos of 18-49 and 25-54 and their subsets, the AMs only have a couple of share points.
Neither is in the top 10 in the age groups that advertisers who use ratings buy.
Again, none of those stations does well in 25-54. KFI is around 20th in that demo, just to give one example.
Ask Buddy next time you see him - I can do a lot of things with engineering and a fair amount with station brokerage and valuation, but I'm the very last person you want programming a music station, or even a news/talker. And I've never claimed otherwise.
Who gives a crap about 50 and under in radio? The ones who do are filing for bankruptcy.
As usual, I think you all will be surprised with what will happen
Perhaps if you shared this board with people in broadcasting who actually care and no what they are doing, you may be further ahead in the guessing game.
I'm never not surprised when Buddy's in the picture, but like the Buffalo market, he's very much the exception to the rule. There are few others, in few other markets, who can draw a decent sales portfolio out of advertisers looking for older listeners.
But I also know how much the rent is for those towers in Hamburg, and that's a very big nut to have to make every month before you see your first dollar in profit.
musicianslegacy
Banned
You know that local direct advertisers DO NOT buy these 25-54 demos. They buy results. National agencies do, and national business at any station right now is in the tank. I am pretty sure WECK makes a very substantial amount of money with a 55+ demo sell. David, you are ALWAYS saying that direct selling is what these kinds of stations are all about, now you throw the demo thing at us.
You do not have vision. You stick to the old tired points. Buddy seems to swim the opposite way the fish are swimming and he is winning. He chose the right station, the right people, the right demo, the right format.
These companies are not "giving" these sticks away. They are shutting them down or just letting them go dark for now. They are shutting them down because they have no clue how to run them, and thats why you are finding these companies in BK court.
The stations you mention above are all relevant in their markets. You do not have to be #1 to be great. Have a little vision.
As far as tower rents go, Buddy already knows this game, as it would appear he has three signals with tower rent. That is just a part of doing business. You need a tower. However, when you have no debt, and tower rent is "not considered debt, it is an operating expense, its only a matter of putting something decent on the air, promoting it, and selling it for very affordable spot rates. When your biggest payment is the Tower Rent, it it then possible for the right person to make very good money
You keep comparing Buddy to the average owner. He's not. He is actually a very smart guy in many ways.
Whatever happens to this station, it is a directional AM with 5,000 KW during the daylight hours and 1KW at night. The 1KW part is the same as WECK, which is a 4+ share 12 plus station. Although WECK is non-directional. As long as a signal covers populated areas, like WHLD does, something can be done with it, even if most of it is on streaming. Depends on what the buyer pays for the station
The one thing I am trying to figure out is "why" he would want the station. He is doing more than well spending half the year at his house in Key West, running the FM he owns there, and fishing. However, he seems to enjoy trying to reinvent the ways things are done and trying to make them better than he found them .
He also owns many things that seem to "Pair" . A full-time ad agency, even a billboard company, and many broadcast TV partnerships. I know for a fact he just put up a huge digital billboard on the I-290 freeway at Deleware avenue as part of his outdoor portfolio. All of these things seem to pair well.
I honestly have zero idea what is going on with WHLD. From what I heard, Buddy had bigger plans than just that station. It may be part of a larger scenerio. Whatever it is, I give him credit for trying to make a difference on his own dime, and for being successful at it.
It seems this kind of thing takes a certain "type" of person to do it right.
Actually, without focusing on the exact age ranges, they do. Advertisers, for the most part, see who buys and who buys the most.
Yes, but even direct sales is predominantly focused on consumers in the "family with children" age range where the most money is spent.
There is not enough money targeting seniors to sustain multiple radio stations.
A good choice for a limited technical facility with a bunch of translators, each on a different channel. As Scott Fybush mentioned on this board, Buddy is an exception and stations like WECK are very few nationally.
Most of the ones being closed have inadequate signals for their MSA and have been shut out of the two viable formats, talk and sports. A few are closing because the property is more valuable than the station or technical maintenance of complex DA's is costly.
I am not doing that. He is anything but an average owner. And that is why his formula does not work elsewhere.
... due to the translators.
You don't know how big a difference that makes.
musicianslegacy
Banned
Mr. David, with all due respect, you seem to have the answers to everything, although you simply are not correct in some things you are saying.
You make a lot of assumptions without knowing specifics. I am doing the same thing.
When I saw this post it appealed to me that a station would be on one minute and they get a “stay of execution “. From any knowledge I have, a “stay of execution “ does not happen often. I just thought it was intriguing, and frankly am curious as to why that happened.
I’m a radio geek and it seems that if there was this “stay of execution “, something changed, quickly.
My defense here is that “ AM signals are worthless” It’s simply not true. WBEN has listeners, as does WGR, as does WECK, although you point out they have three FM translators.
I may be mistaken on some of this, but I think someone with the passion and know how can take a 1KW or 5KW signal in any market and do something with it.
Wasn’t WBEN on FM and they actually turned the FM off, and just left in on AM because the FM made no difference. However, the AM according to Radio insight seems to be fine.
You make a lot of assumptions without knowing specifics. I am doing the same thing.
When I saw this post it appealed to me that a station would be on one minute and they get a “stay of execution “. From any knowledge I have, a “stay of execution “ does not happen often. I just thought it was intriguing, and frankly am curious as to why that happened.
I’m a radio geek and it seems that if there was this “stay of execution “, something changed, quickly.
My defense here is that “ AM signals are worthless” It’s simply not true. WBEN has listeners, as does WGR, as does WECK, although you point out they have three FM translators.
I may be mistaken on some of this, but I think someone with the passion and know how can take a 1KW or 5KW signal in any market and do something with it.
Wasn’t WBEN on FM and they actually turned the FM off, and just left in on AM because the FM made no difference. However, the AM according to Radio insight seems to be fine.
Why not? You know everything else about the Buffalo market based on your other posts.
The WBEN FM simulcast was a debacle. The ratings actually decreased at that time. The audience for WBEN is established. There's no growth potential. It hangs on as a legacy format in a market with older demographics and less churn in population...
I am amazed that no station here does any show prep. You can win by being innovative! For example, match the topics on talk with music that has lyrics that fit with the subject. Talking about Putin and Zelenskyy…cue Strangers in the Night (Frank Sinatra). A fight between Poloncarz and Casilio, cue Hot Blooded. Make it interesting, make people laugh! Art Wander killed it years ago with his Artie Baby Boo Boo show with great callers and his genuine Polish accent. 14X had numbers off the charts for his daypart on a deformed signal. Sandy Beach teamed with The Neaverths and Susan Hunt mornings on WHTT FM… they had huge numbers because they did skits. Larry Norton had great sidekicks that did outrageous things. Shredd & Ragan, still pulling big ratings, read the Niagara Falls police blotter, put a guy in an Indian costume on Grand Island with the sign “Grand Island is closed” back when the native Americans claimed GI was their territory. Remember “bras across Niagara” - Shredd & Ragan had bras strung from Buffalo across the Peace Bridge to Fort Erie for breast cancer month. And who could forget their Penny Protests, urging people to pay their tolls in pennies. It caused traffic jams and lead to the toll booths being removed. Now THAT is where radio could be relevant again,
I don’t understand what this thread is all about. I do not see what the purpose of the banter is. The thread was about WHLD shutting down. It then drifted to other areas.
I can tell you this. I can’t see anyone doing anything with this station. It’s a 5KW Directional AM. Total waste. The rumor is Cumulus is in the bankruptcy line. Go figure
I can tell you this. I can’t see anyone doing anything with this station. It’s a 5KW Directional AM. Total waste. The rumor is Cumulus is in the bankruptcy line. Go figure
You are correct in that radio could be interesting. BUT...It takes money and people to make it so. The boring liner readers are reading the liner cards for a half dozen stations across the corporate owned clusters. That takes up a bit of time. There is also a fear from the corporation that if anything is said that is not on the card, it could cause controversy. That could cause a gen Zer to develop anxiety and say something negative on social media. We can't have that. If a card reader is getting the same two dollars more than minimum wage to read the cards than they would get if they wrote bits and made it interesting, what might the incentive be to do more than read the cards? Well aside from making auditions to try and find a real radio station to work for, but aren't all but three or four stations all owned by the same three corporations?
Welcome back Buddy.
You seem obsessed by this "liner card" thing. Do you think this is the 1970s? Back then, there was a box of 5x7 liner cards on the console, and the DJ was told to insert them from time to time. That was 50 years ago. Today there aren't any liner cards, and you don't pay people to read the non-existent liner cards. You also don't pay people to jockey the discs. The live & local hosts in Buffalo don't read liner cards because they don't exist.
I promise to be good this time.
The state of broadcasting is in a very strange place right now. I know this especially from my Media One agency. In dealing with all levels of all broadcast media, there is a scare in the air.
I have never seen prices so low for broadcast tv or radio. I have no idea how the large companies are paying their debts with the prices on OTA spots.
I think tv is in an especially tough position. While radio stations have “fans” , tv viewers have “favorite shows” . These favorite shows are coming up everywhere, like streaming tv, or “ connected tv” .
In the Buffalo market, cable is going to take a huge hit, just for the reason that they are named “Spectrum”. Consumers associate that name with continued price increases, pulling networks until a carriage deal is worked out, bad customer service, etc. In broadcast, the older viewers, where much of broadcast tv viewing lies, are finding streaming.
On the radio side, things have got more difficult with all groups. Everyone is not cutting their way to the bottom line instead of focusing on top-line revenue.
I still believe that with great content, an ownership group committed to running a good ship, a passionate staff and great ideas, radio will be fine. Albeit, the combination of those things is hard to find.
I also believe there will be major broadcast shakeups this year in Buffalo. For some, there could be opportunity
It is nice to be back. Thank you to the moderators for allowing me. It’s a nice venue to share thoughts
The state of broadcasting is in a very strange place right now. I know this especially from my Media One agency. In dealing with all levels of all broadcast media, there is a scare in the air.
I have never seen prices so low for broadcast tv or radio. I have no idea how the large companies are paying their debts with the prices on OTA spots.
I think tv is in an especially tough position. While radio stations have “fans” , tv viewers have “favorite shows” . These favorite shows are coming up everywhere, like streaming tv, or “ connected tv” .
In the Buffalo market, cable is going to take a huge hit, just for the reason that they are named “Spectrum”. Consumers associate that name with continued price increases, pulling networks until a carriage deal is worked out, bad customer service, etc. In broadcast, the older viewers, where much of broadcast tv viewing lies, are finding streaming.
On the radio side, things have got more difficult with all groups. Everyone is not cutting their way to the bottom line instead of focusing on top-line revenue.
I still believe that with great content, an ownership group committed to running a good ship, a passionate staff and great ideas, radio will be fine. Albeit, the combination of those things is hard to find.
I also believe there will be major broadcast shakeups this year in Buffalo. For some, there could be opportunity
It is nice to be back. Thank you to the moderators for allowing me. It’s a nice venue to share thoughts
As usual, because you are so talented and gifted in the radio business, you are right and I am wrong. Radio does not suck because of liner cards. It sucks because there is nothing creative on the air. Please don't take that so literally that you quote the four interesting things that happened last week, on four out of the 8 thousand stations that played the same songs to a dwindling audience and wondered why people don't listen as intently as they once did. My point was more that there are few local hosts anywhere and the speech from Harry at corporate who reads or invents wonderful things form his mind, isn't all that interesting. Next remind me of economics and radio can't afford do to more. Then I'll answer with you can't expect people to listen to the same old boring stuff. And you'll tell me it not 1972 anymore. The point is radio in general offers NOTHING that isn't found in a million other places. In the 50s it broadcast soap operas. When TV came along it evolved to music. Now other things are doing music better so it should evolve to something else. Now tell me if I'm so smart to buy a radio station and do it. Then I'll answer that I'm not that smart. If I had the answer I'd apply for one of those 13 dollar an hour jobs and create a better mouse trap. I don't have the answer, but I know it's not currently being broadcast on any commercial entity that I have run across. Hope I saved you a few minutes of your valuable time.
"Nothing" is a big word. There are 16,000 broadcast radio stations. Are you telling Buddy Shula he's not creative with what he does at WECK?
Radio is a business. There was nothing creative about beautiful music radio 50 years ago. But it made money.
That's fine. Nobody forces anyone to listen. There's also no law that says radio has to be creative or that radio has to appeal to everyone. There are lots of options, and if radio sucks to you, have a nice day and go find something that suits your personal taste. But for most people, what they get on the radio is just fine. They're obviously not as particular as you. BTW Shredd & Ragan don't read liner cards, and they aren't available in a million other places. Same with Tom Bauerle. You probably don't know who they are.
Interesting. Radio is a business that
Interesting that radio is a business. It loses revenue quarter after quarter. You who knows everything about it tells me if I don't like it to move on. Not an investor in major broadcast stock I am guessing. Thanks by the way for quoting a couple of innovative things out of 16,000 things being broadcast on all those stations. You made my prediction come true . I had to look up Shredd and Regan so you are correct about them. I have known of Bauerle since the 80s (I think) where he did mid days. So you're only 50/50 on that. I am disappointed because I was sure you know everything
Radio is a business made up of lots of companies and lots of people. It's not just one thing. I suspect most of the Buffalo clusters are making money.
One thing that's hurting radio revenue now is the ownership of boat-anchor AMs like the one in this thread.
I am not really sure what you are saying. No disrespect intended. I can tell you for a fact that the major groups are making a good profit in Buffalo. I can tell you that as well with my station.
However, overall the profit is not enough to cover the debt with the major companies. The problem is the debt, not the cash-flow.
Radio is still a great business for those who have operated it right. Again, I know for a fact that the three bigger companies in Buffalo radio profit millions per year. I cannot share how I know, but I know.
I do not know about the other markets across the country, but I know it’s true in Buffalo
I would disagree. This station could be making money. However, there is no effort in any direction to do so. The signal is solid.
This is what you said yesterday:
Cumulus has tried several formats, but nothing local. It might be interesting to run as a non-profit like the old WNED.