CW on for 1 more season?

[jsu5381m]

What's going to happen to the CW 100+ cable stations if the CW goes under?

 

[Nate Wesley]

What's going to happen to the CW 100+ cable stations if the CW goes under?

That's probably easy to answer--they get replaced by another channel plugged in by cable operators.

Now, as far as what happens to the terrestrial stations that are a part of the CW+Plus group, that'll be interesting to see what they end up doing. (I speak of the ones that are primary affiliates like Montgomery's WBMM 22 and not merely a sub-channel of a Big Four affiliate, say Dothan's WTVY-DT 4.3).

 

[oldschooltv]

I agree. They killed a good thing when they threw the WB away. Now we have the CW which is just as bad as MyTV and the old UPN (also terrible).

At least the WB has huge name recognition, from the WB characters to Warner Brothers movies, and the Kids WB! The CW name and logo are both awkward. I say bring back the WB and scrap this CW garbage.

(p.s. and who even watches MyTV anyway? I figure that network will disappear sooner or later. It's like the old UPN, always the ugly stepchild of the two youngest networks.)

 

[oldschooltv]

One more thing:

I actually have a feeling they realized their mistake in shutting down the WB, and are about to relaunch it or convert the CW back to the WB. Not too long ago, they announced the creation of an online television network, www.wb.com. They also negotiated WB Video-On-Demand service through Comcast. I think this might be the first step. But what do I know!? ;D

 

[Darrel M]

What's going to happen to the CW 100+ cable stations if the CW goes under?

That's probably easy to answer--they get replaced by another channel plugged in by cable operators.

Now, as far as what happens to the terrestrial stations that are a part of the CW+Plus group, that'll be interesting to see what they end up doing. (I speak of the ones that are primary affiliates like Montgomery's WBMM 22 and not merely a sub-channel of a Big Four affiliate, say Dothan's WTVY-DT 4.3).

Don't forget the stations affiliated with CW that are above the 100+, and we're not just talking those owned by Tribune. For one example, ACME Communications has 5 of their 6 stations affiliated with CW; unfortunately for them, their company's value would certainly take a hit if CW were to dissolve and the stations were forced to find a new network or other alternatives.

 

[Markxxx]

Acme was founded by Jamie Gellner former Fox exec and CEO of the WB. (and various other positions in Time/Warner, now retired.) He chose Acme as a name for the TV company as a play on the WB's cartoons and how the Coyote always bought stuff from Acme.

Just saying is all.

The WB always excelled in dramas, especially with the slant toward female teens and those in their early 20s. That kind of drama is not the cheapest type of programs to produce.

 

[jegrant]

I'm not sure where the CW went wrong, really, but I agree they should have just kept calling it "The WB" and merged some UPN affiliates in key markets where The WB had bad/nonexistent carriage.

I do look forward to the new online TheWB.com and I think it will be what the terrerestrial network could have been. They are even importing some Canadian and Australian shows, as well as looking into developing original programming, for this new site.

Perhaps the 3rd party that bought the rights to The CW on Sunday Nights should partner with TheWB.com to present "TheWB.com New Sundays on The CW" (as opposed to the old "New Tuesdays" on The WB). Run a mix of "new" episodes of acquired foreign series, "fan favorite" episodes of WB Classic series, and promote the heck out of TheWB.com online and On Demand.

 

[Morgan Wick]

I think the reality is nowadays with all the cable channels that air movies and sports, there is just not room for six major commercial networks. If one of The CW or MNTV fails, then there should be no replacement network, and let the survivor continue as the #5 network. Some stations could survive as independents, such as WGN or WPIX that can air sports and have a news department, but in a lot of smaller markets I think some stations should just shut down if they can't get other viable programming - although RTN is definitely a possibility for some, and there are smaller markets that can support independent stations, such as South Bend, Indiana which has WHME/46 (although it has translators in the Chicago market). Some markets are already over-saturated with Ions, A1s, Daystars, and infomercial transmitters.

MyNet was really created for the benefit of the top 60 markets. Below that there are almost never six full-power stations for which a general purpose network would be a good fit, even counting Ion stations. In those cases where MyNet was on its own full-power station, not digital or low power, below the top 60, it was usually a crime because the CW should have gotten those stations. To use your example of South Bend, both the CW and MyNet are on LPs there; WHME could have gotten either affiliation but it isn't really independent, or on the surface, a nominee for networkhood (Wikipedia labels it a LeSea - religious - station). Even ABC is an LP in South Bend. But the top 60 markets make up about 73% of all households.

If the CW was to fold, most stations in markets outside the top 60 - including South Bend - might make at least an attempt to switch to MyNet. The need to fold is mostly irrelevant. Low-power, and many CA, stations could conceivably fold without any huge loss to most people in the market; many of the LPs carrying the CW or MyNet are co-carried on the digital signals of "big brother" Big 4 stations. The only reason that's not the case with the CW and MyNet stations in South Bend is because they're co-owned with the aforementioned LP ABC affiliate. Those without big brothers are mostly owned by tiny companies with small budgets for which having a Big Six affiliation was reaching above their station anyway. Most top 60 markets would lose an affiliation on a full-service station, but a good chunk of them might be large enough that stations losing affiliations would be able to at least attempt independent-hood, if they weren't so whiny.

The real problem, if there is any, might be mid-size markets. But below the top 30 (only the poorest and smallest of which wouldn't be able to support an independent, at least in good economic times), there are still a good number of markets with only five nominees for networkhood, counting only full-power stations, anyway: Columbus (UPN and WB were on the same station, MyNet landed digital carriage on the ABC affiliate), Cincinnati (note that UPN was on a CA but the CW landed on digital - with the CBS affiliate - here), West Palm Beach (WB was on a CA, MyNet moved in on it), Grand Rapids (UPN was on a network of CAs, WB was on the Ion station, the CAs landed MyNet while the CW settled for digital carriage on the CBS station), Harrisburg (Wikipedia says - or said, anyway - that most people watched WB on WPHL, which went to MyNet; the UPN station thus went to CW but MyNet landed on the CBS affiliate's digital signal), Austin (shared a UPN station with San Antonio, that station went to CW but the local WB affiliate picked up both networks), and Richmond (WB was a secondary affiliation with the NBC affiliate, MyNet landed on digital with the Fox affiliate). (I'm not counting Knoxville even though MyNet is on digital with the CBS affiliate, on a channel that had been a UPN affiliate, because it has WMAK-DT, whose only distinction from the other full-service stations is that its closest thing to an analog signal is a couple of LPs, as far as I can tell.) It's still an open question what markets like Tulsa, Little Rock, Albany, and Fresno might do, or if they could support independents. Even in larger markets, there are cases where the CW station is owned by Sinclair Broadcast Group, which basically runs its CW/MyNet affiliates as infomercial-thons already...

My question: In most but by no means all markets, MyNet landed on inferior stations - the CW's rejects. (Cincinatti and Hawaii, the latter probably the largest market that had no CW affiliate whatsoever when the network launched, are the two highest-profile exceptions.) In many cases, some of them cited above, MyNet is on low-power or digital while the CW gets a full-service station. In Seattle, Denver and St. Louis, the CW is on strong VHF stations; in the cases of Denver and St. Louis, they're on par with the Big Four in the market, complete with their own news, but nonetheless are in medium-large size markets and thus aren't exactly WGN. A fifth network would much prefer to be on KSTW, KWGN, and KPLR than the much weaker WRBU, which only started transitioning from a home shopping station to a UPN affiliate in 2002, KMYQ, which bumps MyNet programming one hour earlier so it can show news (produced by a co-owned Fox affiliate) at 9, or the sports-rich KTVD (local sports = preemptions = network execs pulling their hair out). If the CW folds, how easy would it be for MyNet to snap up those stations, considering contractural intricities?

Also, this is random, idle, unwarranted speculation here, but would the Time Warner Cable spin-off allow Time Warner to buy its own stations for a potential WB revival? If so, do you think they could make an offer Fox couldn't refuse for the MyNet O&Os and network (possibly backed by an affiliate revolt from people thinking Fox ownership, and a structure originially intended to make MyNet more of a syndication deal than a true network, is holding MyNet back - although other, weaker, affiliates may worry about potentially losing their large share of the ad space), and then shut down the latter so they could get the strongest affiliates possible for the aforementioned revival, and possibly rope in WPCH (the former WTBS, now Peachtree TV) while they're at it?

On a different, but possibly compatible, track of speculation, would the CW folding lead Tribune to start its own "WGN Network"?

 

[Morgan Wick]

I know double posting is frowned on, but my first post is long enough already.

I think the reality is nowadays with all the cable channels that air movies and sports, there is just not room for six major commercial networks. If one of The CW or MNTV fails, then there should be no replacement network, and let the survivor continue as the #5 network. Some stations could survive as independents, such as WGN or WPIX that can air sports and have a news department, but in a lot of smaller markets I think some stations should just shut down if they can't get other viable programming - although RTN is definitely a possibility for some, and there are smaller markets that can support independent stations, such as South Bend, Indiana which has WHME/46 (although it has translators in the Chicago market). Some markets are already over-saturated with Ions, A1s, Daystars, and infomercial transmitters.

I disagree...because of digital TV, I think to some extent you're going to see more networks. The ones backed by studios, they aren't going to let them fail unless they lose too much money. I think there will be a push to challenge light cable TV watchers, or folks on the brink of doing away with cable TV altogether.

Heck, it's already happening. They probably won't have affiliates in every market, but they'll definitely be 'nationally' programmed. You mentioned RTN, now Google the following: ".2 Network" (that's 'Dot-Two'), "World Championship Sports Network", and I know there's probably another new outlet I've missed that is signing up for digital subchannel carriage. The really small nets catering to LPTV stations (America One, 3ABN, FamilyNet, etc.) might find clearance in bigger cities.

They aren't going to be full-fledged channels with much in the way of original programming, but they'll load up with plenty of reruns, movies, and perhaps some sports. Ion itself might be ahead of its time.

At some point, I suspect these networks will shake themselves out to the point where there will be five and a half, to match the existing networks and guarantee the greatest coverage for them. NBC Weather Plus (or maybe AccuWeather Channel) will be one of them. At least one of America One, 3ABN, FamilyNet, and the like will be another; what the mid-to-small size markets lack in full-service stations they often make up for in LPs.

People advocating everyone to ditch the money-grubbing cable or satellite companies with the DTV transition coming and HD not being diluted OTA often forget that a lot of people watch cable, more than you would think from the ratings. I would never even consider ditching cable if it meant losing ESPN, and I don't even watch Monday Night Football. The top shows on cable are seen by a good 5% of the audience, and a lot more people than that are addicted to at least one show somewhere on cable. Also remember that HD takes up so much bandwidth that not only is there almost never room for more than one subchannel, subchannels are rarely HD, which is part of the reason why most stations don't try very hard to create strong subchannels, let alone near-equivalents to the main network.

It also is why these "sub-networks" will probably never be as big as even the cable networks and why the fate of the Tube may befall a disturbing number of them. More and more, people want HD, and once they know where to find the true HD feeds, they don't want stretch-o-vision. "More channels", as the DTV PSAs claim, isn't as true as you may think, and it's more of a disadvantage for CW and MyNet to be on digital, as opposed to a full-service or even low-power (or even, in high-cable-penetration markets, cable-only) station, as you may think. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if one of my five-and-a-half sub-networks is a network that's on cable now, albeit probably one that isn't co-owned with a Big 5/6 network.

 

[Markxxx]

The real problem with HD is the programming. New shows are HD but the old shows aren't and there's not a heck of a lot of point to upgrading them. If they were shot in 35mm which is better than HD quality it's easy but expensive to do so. And would the show be any funnier (in the case of a sitcom) if it were in HD?

There's plenty of talent around it's just being redirected. Just go to YouTube and you can see what people are doing cheaply and effectively. OK you wade through crap to get to the one good video out of one hundred, but it proves the talent is there but not being utilized.

 

[dave73]

I think the reality is nowadays with all the cable channels that air movies and sports, there is just not room for six major commercial networks. If one of The CW or MNTV fails, then there should be no replacement network, and let the survivor continue as the #5 network. Some stations could survive as independents, such as WGN or WPIX that can air sports and have a news department, but in a lot of smaller markets I think some stations should just shut down if they can't get other viable programming - although RTN is definitely a possibility for some, and there are smaller markets that can support independent stations, such as South Bend, Indiana which has WHME/46 (although it has translators in the Chicago market). Some markets are already over-saturated with Ions, A1s, Daystars, and infomercial transmitters.

MyNet was really created for the benefit of the top 60 markets. Below that there are almost never six full-power stations for which a general purpose network would be a good fit, even counting Ion stations. In those cases where MyNet was on its own full-power station, not digital or low power, below the top 60, it was usually a crime because the CW should have gotten those stations. To use your example of South Bend, both the CW and MyNet are on LPs there; WHME could have gotten either affiliation but it isn't really independent, or on the surface, a nominee for networkhood (Wikipedia labels it a LeSea - religious - station). Even ABC is an LP in South Bend. But the top 60 markets make up about 73% of all households.

If the CW was to fold, most stations in markets outside the top 60 - including South Bend - might make at least an attempt to switch to MyNet. The need to fold is mostly irrelevant. Low-power, and many CA, stations could conceivably fold without any huge loss to most people in the market; many of the LPs carrying the CW or MyNet are co-carried on the digital signals of "big brother" Big 4 stations. The only reason that's not the case with the CW and MyNet stations in South Bend is because they're co-owned with the aforementioned LP ABC affiliate. Those without big brothers are mostly owned by tiny companies with small budgets for which having a Big Six affiliation was reaching above their station anyway. Most top 60 markets would lose an affiliation on a full-service station, but a good chunk of them might be large enough that stations losing affiliations would be able to at least attempt independent-hood, if they weren't so whiny.

In the South Bend market, there are only 5 full power TV stations
16 WNDU (NBC)
22 WSBT (CBS)
28 WSJV (FOX)
34 WNIT (PBS)
46 WHME (independent religious)

WSJV 28 used to be an ABC affiliate until I believe 1995. The ratings on ABC were dropping so much during that time that WSJV decided to become a FOX affiliate.

WSBT 22 used to have UPN as a digital sub-channel on 30.2, just to add it to the market. It was added to cable so people could watch UPN, if they didn't have a ota DTV.

WBND-LP was originally on 58, and that went on the air to become the ABC affiliate after WSJV decided to drop their ABC affiliation. Weigel Broadcasting already had a translator on 69, and decided to get another low power TV station on the air. The only reason they didn't get a full power TV station in the market is because there isn't enough space to allow a new full power TV station on the air. Not when they have to deal with Grand Rapids, Kalamazoo, and Battle Creek in neighboring Michigan; Chicago to the west, Fort Wayne to the SE, and Indianapolis to the south. Now since WSJV got their digital channel on 58, WBND moved to 57. Now I don't know where they'll move to next February. Weigel also had another LP station on 25, and they put the WB on that station, and used the call letters WMWB. The WB was originally on 69, but 25 has a slightly better coverage area for an LP station, and was moved there. For a while, 69 was independent.

When WB & UPN merged, Weigel Broadcasting got the CW affiliation, and WSBT's digital sub-channel went independent. The CW is on 25 with the call letters WWCW. They also made channel 69 the My Network affiliate with the call letters WMYS-LP. Surprised that WSJV didn't jump on it and put it on their digital sub-channel, unless they didn't want it, or didn't have the capacity to add it on a digital sub-channel. I don't know the reason to it.

So for a market like South Bend, there isn't much room to add a new network on the TV dial when there isn't room to add another full power TV station. I wonder with the digital conversion if there might be a chance for another channel or 2 to go full power. The 3 LP stations are lucky if they cover Elkhart, Marshall, LaPorte (they're technically part of the Chicago market per Neilson, but South Bend TV stations do cover that county), and Starke Counties in Indiana, and Berrien & Cass Counties in Michigan. I know 25, 57, and 69 reach Starke County because my brother gets them on his outdoor antenna in Knox, though not 100% clear though. Those 3 LP stations don't serve the entire market though.

I don't know what WNDU carries on their digital sub-channel, unless they don't have a sub-channel. I don't think they were interested in the old WB or UPN, or the current CW & My Network.

WNIT is PBS, and can't add a commercial network to their sub-channel due to their license being non-commercial.

WHME isn't going to add any network that isn't religious related. So the major networks are out. So if they have any digital sub-channels, they might be TBN, ETWN, or some other religious affiliation.

At least South Bend isn't like Lafayette Indiana, where that TV market only has 1 TV station for the entore market. That market if lucky gets some of the Indianapolis TV stations. So that market relies heavily on cable TV to get the Indianapolis TV stations. Comcast in that market was lucky to work out a deal with WTTW 11 Chicago, to be allowed to carry their channel outside of the Chicago market. I know this because my sister has cable TV at her new place, where she only had Comcast for just internet at her old place.

 

[dhett]

WBND-LP was originally on 58
<snip>
Now since WSJV got their digital channel on 58, WBND moved to 57. Now I don't know where they'll move to next February.

They've already licensed a LP digital companion channel on 49, WBND-LD. I assume eventually, they'll just shut ch 57 off and turn in the license, although at least for the time being, there is no mandate for LP stations to clear the lower 700 MHz band (ch 52-59). LPTV is a secondary service, so as long as it doesn't interfere with a primary service, it's OK to remain there after Feb 2009. I would imagine that once the full-service stations cease analog operations, WBND will too, as there will be no reason for the added expense of running two stations.

When WB & UPN merged, Weigel Broadcasting got the CW affiliation, and WSBT's digital sub-channel went independent. The CW is on 25 with the call letters WWCW.

Actually, it's WCWW. WWCW is channel 21 in Lynchburg VA. 8)

They also made channel 69 the My Network affiliate with the call letters WMYS-LP. Surprised that WSJV didn't jump on it and put it on their digital sub-channel, unless they didn't want it, or didn't have the capacity to add it on a digital sub-channel. I don't know the reason to it.

So for a market like South Bend, there isn't much room to add a new network on the TV dial when there isn't room to add another full power TV station. I wonder with the digital conversion if there might be a chance for another channel or 2 to go full power. The 3 LP stations are lucky if they cover Elkhart, Marshall, LaPorte (they're technically part of the Chicago market per Neilson, but South Bend TV stations do cover that county), and Starke Counties in Indiana, and Berrien & Cass Counties in Michigan. I know 25, 57, and 69 reach Starke County because my brother gets them on his outdoor antenna in Knox, though not 100% clear though. Those 3 LP stations don't serve the entire market though.

WBND, WCWW and WMYS all have licensed digital companion channels on 49, 27 and 23, respectively, and all are running at the max. 15 kW. That should give decent coverage for WBND and WCWW, but WMYS has a strong null to the SSE to protect co-channel WNDY in Marion. In February, WNDY is going to return the ch 23 license and keep their current digital operations on ch 32, but WIPB Muncie is moving to ch 23, so WMYS may not be able to expand coverage much, if at all.

WBND-LD coverage
WCWW-LD coverage
WMYS-LD coverage

I don't know what WNDU carries on their digital sub-channel, unless they don't have a sub-channel. I don't think they were interested in the old WB or UPN, or the current CW & My Network.

WNIT is PBS, and can't add a commercial network to their sub-channel due to their license being non-commercial.

WHME isn't going to add any network that isn't religious related. So the major networks are out. So if they have any digital sub-channels, they might be TBN, ETWN, or some other religious affiliation.

According to Zap2It, WNDU carries NBC feeds on DT1 and DT2, and weather on DT3. I'm assuming that's an HD feed and an SD feed. Surprisingly, it doesn't look like they use WeatherPlus+, the weather service which many NBC stations use.

It looks like WNIT has PBS HD on their primary feed and the local analog simulcast on DT2. (Although apparently, there is no longer an analog signal, due to equipment failure.)

Again, according to Zap2It, they do have a DT2 subchannel, which carries Christian/family programming, but it doesn't look like any of the major Christian networks (TBN, Daystar, EWTN, etc.)

 

[Nate Wesley]

It also is why these "sub-networks" will probably never be as big as even the cable networks and why the fate of the Tube may befall a disturbing number of them. More and more, people want HD, and once they know where to find the true HD feeds, they don't want stretch-o-vision. "More channels", as the DTV PSAs claim, isn't as true as you may think, and it's more of a disadvantage for CW and MyNet to be on digital, as opposed to a full-service or even low-power (or even, in high-cable-penetration markets, cable-only) station, as you may think. Still, I wouldn't be surprised if one of my five-and-a-half sub-networks is a network that's on cable now, albeit probably one that isn't co-owned with a Big 5/6 network.

Point noted, but I'd guess that the same folks most likely to dump cable television are the same folks who wouldn't care much for/against HD programming (blasphemy!). Give them a clear picture to watch CSI or The Office, and they're probably happy.

 

[JeffSteele]

If The CW does cease to exist, I'm sure WRBJ (Jackson's CW affiliate) will have no choice to become a truly independent TV station.

 

[Markxxx]

Availablility of TV stations is important, take both ABC in the 60s and the WB in the 90s.

ABC often ran second to CBS in markets where there were three VHFs and ABC, CBS and NBC were on each one. ABC was severely handicapped by being on UHF in some cities till the mid 70s.

The first two years UPS was ahead of the WB and remained so but in markets where the WB and UPN were of equal strength the WB prevailed (Such as St Louis and Chicago)

People really don't have a clue about digital TV, (as a whole) and that will change the landscape of TV for about a year as stations experiment.

But then again all it takes is one hit show to turn around a network.

South Bend is an unusual place because (I used to live over there) and Chicago VHFs are easily obtainable over the air. Probably the reason Channel 28 dropped ABC and picked up FOX was that WLS channel 7 ABC Chicago is so powerful and easily reaches South Bend, I used to only have rabbit ears. I could get the UHF but they weren't as reliable, in the Summer the Chicago UHFs come in pretty clear but in winter the Chicago UHFs are not well received

 

[Morgan Wick]

Also, keep in mind once the digital transition hits, several stations that now run on both an analog and digital signal will run on just a digital signal. Many of them will be moving from low VHF positions that the FCC should be banning outright, but there will be good real estate to set up a new station freed up, especially in mid- to small markets. You could see the smaller networks (CW - if it survives - and MyNet) improve their positioning and some new networks (including shopping and religious networks) start.