Darned if it didn't happen AGAIN!

[kenglish]

Some of you may remember my postings on radio and TV interference from bad neon "outline" wiring at the mall across the street. We'll, once again, the stuff caught the building on fire yesterday.

Here's a link, with close-up photos:
http://www.ksl.com/?nid=148&sid=13200646

This makes three times, IIRC. When will their insurance company, and the fire prevention bureau, ever learn? (I wish I'd checked the shortwave radio last night when I finally got home. I wonder if it killed some more of the noise?)

 

[frankberry]

Neon signs can be a BIG noise generator. The high voltage necessary to operate the neon tubes can easily arc across the insulators. The salt in the atmosphere from the Great Salt Lake doesn't help the situation either. High voltage snubber capacitor networks across the neon tubes can reduce the noise that is generated.
Of course, in this case, the fire has temporarily stopped the RFI.

 

[kenglish]

Well, maybe not stopped ALL the RFI. There are thousands of feet of that outline tubing over there. Much of it has been broken, and sections bypassed, over the years. There are jumpers hanging haphazardly from section to section. And, in some cases (like the fire a couple of years ago), where the wires are cut off, but still energized. I'd say that only 25% of it still lights up.

I just wrote the Fire prevention Bureau, and suggested that they "suggest" the owners have it all inspected by a good sign company, and the unsafe parts be taken out of service, before it happens again. The small restaurant next door to me burned down after the owner tried to do his own neon repairs.

 

[nmoore6676]

A bigger problem as I've learned are those environmentally friendly CFL bulbs used in ordinary lamps and fixtures. Since they use solid state electronics rather than the traditional ballasts they are quite literally generating RF interference. There is no way to silence them other than trying new bulbs and hoping for the best.

 

[frankberry]

Yes, yes, yes. The CFL bulbs are horrible. Pretty soon, they will be the only bulbs available in the US.
I wonder if you could put a grounded screen around the CFL bulbs and eliminate some of the RFI.
Anyone tried?

 

[nmoore6676]

Yes, yes, yes. The CFL bulbs are horrible. Pretty soon, they will be the only bulbs available in the US.
I wonder if you could put a grounded screen around the CFL bulbs and eliminate some of the RFI.
Anyone tried?

The wiring radiates the RF. I found that a ceiling lamp radiated more switched off than on, I suspected that the switch was in the wrong leg of the circuit. Also if the lamp is on the same circuit it will go back into the radio. I've tried using surge protectors which stated that they also trapped interference, they didn't.

In my younger years most radios had an external antenna terminal and since I was a DXer I had a couple of long wires in my back yard. The main interference I had then was from TV sets, fluorescent lights and my mom's Sunbeam mixer. But the outside antenna got more clean signal into the set and there were no computers or microwave ovens to contend with.

 

[rrsounds]

Yes, yes, yes. The CFL bulbs are horrible. Pretty soon, they will be the only bulbs available in the US.
<snip>

We can't get higher than 60W-rated incandescents here in Germany anymore.

I hate CFLs. When I walk in a room and turn on a light, I want light then...not five minutes later, lol.

LED lamps can't get here soon enough!

Kind Regards,
David

 

[littlejohn]

I can't tell what color my pants are under CFLs. Have to go out in the sunshine to be sure.

 

[oldiesstation]

Plus you're not suppose to trash them when they go out.I ask the folks at Lowe's how are we suppose to dispose of these things.Hell,they seem to care less.

 

[satech]

All is not lost! "Next-generation" incandescent bulbs are now available from Philips (EcoVantage), Sylvania (SuperSaver Halogen), and GE (Halogen). These meet the 2012-2014 energy standards which are widely (and incorrectly) rumored to "ban all incandescent bulbs" and have 25% to 30% energy savings compared to traditional incandescents because they actually use a halogen capsule contained within the traditional outer glass shell.

The Philips and Sylvania bulbs are easy to find in supermarkets around here, and Wal-Mart sells the GE Halogen bulbs. They're still a bit pricey ($2.99 to $4.99 for a pack of 2 bulbs) but the color reproduction is even better than standard incandescents, they last longer, use less energy, and retain all the advantages of incadescents over CFLs (no RFI, instant-on full brightness, can be used "base up" in ceiling fixtures, and contain no mercury so there's no environmental/health hazard when one burns out or breaks).

 

[nmoore6676]

Plus you're not suppose to trash them when they go out.I ask the folks at Lowe's how are we suppose to dispose of these things.Hell,they seem to care less.

Actually the same disposal restrictions have always been there for fluorescent tubes, it was just that nobody paid any attention for the most part.

All is not lost! "Next-generation" incandescent bulbs are now available from Philips (EcoVantage), Sylvania (SuperSaver Halogen), and GE (Halogen). These meet the 2012-2014 energy standards which are widely (and incorrectly) rumored to "ban all incandescent bulbs" and have 25% to 30% energy savings compared to traditional incandescents because they actually use a halogen capsule contained within the traditional outer glass shell.

The Philips and Sylvania bulbs are easy to find in supermarkets around here, and Wal-Mart sells the GE Halogen bulbs. They're still a bit pricey ($2.99 to $4.99 for a pack of 2 bulbs) but the color reproduction is even better than standard incandescents, they last longer, use less energy, and retain all the advantages of incadescents over CFLs (no RFI, instant-on full brightness, can be used "base up" in ceiling fixtures, and contain no mercury so there's no environmental/health hazard when one burns out or breaks).

Thanks for the tip, I'm looking into it. I am well aware of color temperature issues from my days running cable TV studios. My issue was that in the old days with fluorescent lighting in stores I would come home with what I thought were black socks which turned out to really be dark blue.

 

[oldiesstation]

Some of the cfl's made by GLOBE in China(as you know they make everything now) have caught on fire.These are sold at Walmart.I'm sure you know not to use these things in recessed or track lighting.Leave one of these on,you may come home to a house in embers...

 

[kenglish]

I went over and looked at the mall again. Much of the old, extensive outline lighting is gone, and there are smaller "crown" shaped decorations on peaks of the facade. Most are falling apart, and some are missing. The fire appears to have been a neon transformer, feeding one of those.
One building, though, still has a couple of active circuits with the old outlines. One circuit, which seems to be dead, had a fifty-foot roll of hookup wire (Radio Shack is right below it) run across the roof, to complete the High Voltage circuit. It was even laying across the metal roof flashing!
I DO think that fluorescents are a lot of the noise, though.

Will it soon be illegal to SELL incandescents, or just to MAKE them? Maybe some radio stores and broadcasters could stock up on them.

 

[DudeFan]

Incandescent or otherwise have to be of a certain efficiency. Philips and others are now selling "incandescent" bulbs that have halogen capsules in a traditional incandescent form factor. The reviews have been good.

 

[BobOnTheJob]

[/quote]

LED lamps can't get here soon enough!

Kind Regards,
David
[/quote]

Let me add one word..."BRIGHT" LED lamps can't get here soon enough! How I'd love to plug in a 116 watt equivalent tower marker light and even a 620 watt equiv beacon. No fancy controller, no $3000 price tag. Just sell me a bulb that plugs into my existing socket, puts out the same amount of light and uses a few % of the electricity. That will be the game changer.

 

[nmoore6676]

Incandescent or otherwise have to be of a certain efficiency. Philips and others are now selling "incandescent" bulbs that have halogen capsules in a traditional incandescent form factor. The reviews have been good.

One question/concern. I notice that they are encapsulated which will solve the biggest issue I has in my experience with halogen studio lighting globes, any oil from your skin on the glass could cause a dramatic explosion. But how about the heat, they had halogen tubes for floor lamps a few years back and they caused fires. Is the encapsulation enough to reduce the fire danger and how about the heat load on air conditioning?

 

[littlejohn]

The quartz tubes were 150 - 300 Watts. Whatever the bulb power,it eventually appears asheat. As I understand it, the haloges will be 60 Watts or so,consequently they will give off 60 Watts of heat -either as light toheat the surface it hits, or as radiated heat.

 

[nmoore6676]

The quartz tubes were 150 - 300 Watts. Whatever the bulb power,it eventually appears asheat. As I understand it, the haloges will be 60 Watts or so,consequently they will give off 60 Watts of heat -either as light toheat the surface it hits, or as radiated heat.

I got that they are smaller and less wattage than TV studio lamps which start at 500 watts and go to 5 or 10 thousand. But the ones that they made as a kind of tube for floor lamps were certainly less wattage than any of that and they could still start fires. In any event even at 60 watts they would unless the technology has changed produce more heat than a 60 watt normal incandescent bulb as well as a 60 watt CFL.

I was hoping for someone who might have used them to relate their experience as to the heat output. Even if they are not a fire hazard they could affect air conditioning efficiency.

By the way the heat produced by incandescent lamps is the source of the light. The heated filament radiates energy across a broad spectrum some of which is visible to the eye. Halogen lamps are much the same just that the light output is concentrated because of the halogen gas in the lamp more to the blue end but in the process the lamp element gets extremely hot. The halogen studio lamps I used were rated at 3300K (degrees Kelvin) where as a household incandescent lamp is maybe 2800K and sunlight midday at about 9500K or higher although the filter wheel on the cameras said 5700K if I recall correctly.

Speaking of heat anyone have fond memories of the old tube amplifiers (PA and remote) that made the cold press boxes at Ohio high school football games a bit more bearable.

 

[Mike Sheridan]

Speaking of heat anyone have fond memories of the old tube amplifiers (PA and remote) that made the cold press boxes at Ohio high school football games a bit more bearable.

Nope but I do remember the amp I had that could just about heat my bedroom in the winter. When you turned it off you could actually hear the tubes make a tinkle sound as they cooled...wow!

I once knew a guy who worked maintaining the equipment at a Drive in movie theater. Even well into the solid state era they used tube amplifiers. Want to know why? Any guesses?

 

[Grounded Grid]

I once knew a guy who worked maintaining the equipment at a Drive in movie theater. Even well into the solid state era they used tube amplifiers. Want to know why? Any guesses?

I'll take a shot.

A few things come to mind:

1. Bogen PA amps were commonly used in early conversion attempts (the CHS series, mainly). Short the outputs on those things, like when someone would drive off with a speaker, and you'd lose the transistors, taking out the whole section that amp powered, or maybe the entire field.

2. Those same outputs would pop in lightning-prone areas, with the same results as 1 above.

3. Wattage calculations were not made the same way with those transistor amps. A 100 watt Bogen could not keep up with an 80 watt RCA, with those cool sets of push-pull 807s.

4. If it ain't broke... I know of one drive-in that's still running their original 1953-vintage tube amps. They've got two spares on the shelf, so I don't see that place converting any time soon.

5. Heat Source. Like the press box comment, drive-in amplifier racks, mercury vapor DC exciter supplies and carbon arc lamps pretty much eliminated the need for any other heat in the booth area.