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Day 246 without prog. talk...

raccoonradio

raccoonradio

about 246 days since AAR/Jones shows went off the air in Boston and no sign as far as I know that
"prog. talk" will be back, at least in a solid format (there are some hosts who do lean left). Would anyone
take a chance or is the format toast? So far I haven't heard of many stations being added to
"Air America 2.0" and apparently KLSD ("Lucy in the sky...with diamonds", man) in San Diego is due to
dump it next.

What is the future for libtalk--which still gets its clock cleaned by conservative hosts? Is it that stations
are unwilling to try it (here in town and elsewhere) because they feel they can't sell it (or certainly some
feel there's a political agenda)...could a station work with a "blend" of hosts, Left and Right?

Just curious. (And some feel stations like WTKK and WRKO are leaning left--Maloney has said so among
some others, but with what? Is Finneran
considered a lib just because he was a Democrat? or are party labels misleading--heck, the OTHER
convicted felon on the radio, my "Buddy", was a liberal Republican, I've heard...anyway, E&B may lean
a bit to the left...there may be others...but on the whole there is no libtalk station in Boston or in many
other places
though other forms of media are dominated by the Left)

btw: though prog talk on the whole hasn't returned to Burl VT/Platt NY, they did resurrect Stephanie
Miller on daytimer WTWK 1070 which had pulled the plug on prog talk in favor of women's talk;
the women's talk network went belly up but they're putting female hosts like Steph, Dr Joy Brown,
and Sally Jesse Raphael on instead...also something called Chick Chat)
 
The San Diego thread has some interesting perspectives on prog talk failing--a couple possibilities:

--the sales people didn't get out there and aggressively sell spots/point out the potential
listenership out there

--younger listeners--who tend to be liberal, I'd think--may be too much into music stations/mp3s-Ipods, etc.
And I'd say they may get the political news and commentary from other sources, be it Colbert, Daily Show,
alternative newspapers--the Phoenix* around here--, the Net, and so on.

*--if an AM station, say, were available, how's this for an idea: Boston Phoenix Political Radio. Enjoy
the stuff in the first section of Mindich's paper? How about local hosts discussing local and national
politics. They could even have a show where local musicians and comedians come on, kind of like
what Tai used to do on his WRKO night show, and do "Boston After Dark", etc. Has Mindich ever
thought of that?
 
"Baloney" Mahoney is right of Attilla... His opinion is worthless.

raccoonradio said:
about 246 days since AAR/Jones shows went off the air in Boston and no sign as far as I know that
"prog. talk" will be back, at least in a solid format (there are some hosts who do lean left). Would anyone
take a chance or is the format toast? So far I haven't heard of many stations being added to
"Air America 2.0" and apparently KLSD ("Lucy in the sky...with diamonds", man) in San Diego is due to
dump it next.

What is the future for libtalk--which still gets its clock cleaned by conservative hosts? Is it that stations
are unwilling to try it (here in town and elsewhere) because they feel they can't sell it (or certainly some
feel there's a political agenda)...could a station work with a "blend" of hosts, Left and Right?

Just curious. (And some feel stations like WTKK and WRKO are leaning left--Maloney has said so among
some others, but with what? Is Finneran
considered a lib just because he was a Democrat? or are party labels misleading--heck, the OTHER
convicted felon on the radio, my "Buddy", was a liberal Republican, I've heard...anyway, E&B may lean
a bit to the left...there may be others...but on the whole there is no libtalk station in Boston or in many
other places
though other forms of media are dominated by the Left)

btw: though prog talk on the whole hasn't returned to Burl VT/Platt NY, they did resurrect Stephanie
Miller on daytimer WTWK 1070 which had pulled the plug on prog talk in favor of women's talk;
the women's talk network went belly up but they're putting female hosts like Steph, Dr Joy Brown,
and Sally Jesse Raphael on instead...also something called Chick Chat)
Click to expand...
 
Thanks for quoting the entire post :) (no need to do entire post, I guess; whatever).
I feel better about Maloney than some here but I don't take everything he says as
gospel, either.
So, does my idea about Mindich doing Boston Phoenix TalkRadio fly? Who knows...presumably
the AM station he would buy under such a scenario would be more powerful than the
FORMER sister station of 101.7, WAZN (was WLYN) 1360 of course.

btw Casa, note a post on my own board (linked below) by someone who was not exactly
admiring of Grahamcracker...
 
progressive talk could begin NOW if...

Stations are not obligated to carry a particular format. There are no grounds to challenge a station's license because you don't like their current format. WLYN is on 1360. WAZN is on 1470, currently doing leased time ethnic programming, largely simulcast from WLYN. An offer was made to begin carrying progressive talk immediately on WAZN. The offer was not taken seriously. True, WAZN does not have blanket coverage of the
entire Boston metro area. If it did cover the entire metro area, the costs would be much higher. It could, however, be a good start for assembling a "network" of local stations. Public access cable, subcarriers,webcasts just won't fit the bill.

Some of the local people pushing for this format do not seem to have any idea of all of the costs involved in running a radio station. "Oh - we would rather buy our own station". This would take quite a while to set up. Assuming a station is, indeed, for sale, even a small station would set you back at least $1.5 million. All that you get for that sum is a license - a piece of paper: no office/studio space, no staff, no transmitter/tower space - just a license. The debt service alone would be far more than the offer I made them to lease time on WAZN on a monthly basis. But they don't want to hear it. It seems that certain people would rather whine on bulletin boards about the dearth of progressive programming, rather than actually DO something about it. You would have the option of carrying national network hosts, as well as starting your own locally produced programs.

If there is a group/individual out there who actually understands the radio business, and wants to get this format up and running immediately, I would be more than glad to meet with them and lay out the details. You can talk about doing something, or you can actually DO it. Your call...


Jeff Kline
General Manager, WLYN/WAZN

[email protected]
 
raccoonradio said:
What is the future for libtalk--which still gets its clock cleaned by conservative hosts? Is it that stations
are unwilling to try it (here in town and elsewhere) because they feel they can't sell it (or certainly some
feel there's a political agenda)...could a station work with a "blend" of hosts, Left and Right?
Click to expand...

If libtalk is going to be, as AAR was, agenda-driven, it has no chance. People will not listen to political preaching on the radio...a fact which has been proven repeatedly, even before AAR existed. If they blow the thing up and start programming it as radio should be programmed (i.e., entertaining, compelling, funny at times), they have a shot. Rush Limbaugh, Sean Hannity and others get enormous mileage out of NOT preaching to the choir. Not everyone who listens to them are rock-ribbed conservatives. That's because they and other right-wing hosts have mastered the art of being entertaining.

raccoonradio said:
And some feel stations like WTKK and WRKO are leaning left--Maloney has said so among some others, but with what?
Click to expand...

Nice. Another disgruntled ex-employee with a blog. Maloney needs to buy himself a clue.
 
>>If libtalk is going to be, as AAR was, agenda-driven, it has no chance.

Exactly--people like Rush, Howie, Hannity, Ingraham, etc. are entertaining. ironically enough some of
libtalk's hosts are indeed entertainers themselves (though one decided to run for the Senate recently
if you know who I mean!) so how could they fail? (It's not a given that an "entertainer" would be a
successful talk host though)

>>People will not listen to political preaching on the radio

Though libs have complained that this is just what conservative hosts are doing (along with "it's
being run by the GOP"...well, if that's so, then AAR was being run by the Democratic Party)

>>get enormous mileage out of NOT preaching to the choir. Not everyone who listens to them are rock-ribbed conservatives. That's because they and other right-wing hosts have mastered the art of being entertaining.

The libs will deny it but most of the media is left-leaning and talk radio is a counterbalance. Go to the
movies and you'll see left-leaning documentaries by the likes of Al Gore and Michael Moore but hardly
any conservatives (and these films get shown in schools; did schools show any films rebutting these?)
Many other forms of media are left-leaning, too, and the reason Fox News succeeded is because it
DIDN'T preach to the choir. Talk radio, too.

It's kind of ironic that in this state where Democrats hold almost every office, conservative talk is
flourishing--or at least it's _there_ while lib talk is not. (My suggestion is that Mindich could tap into
this wellspring of liberal thought and put up a station himself. btw I love it when libs locally complain
about how horrible things are. Governor, Lt Gov., constitutional officers, most state senators & reps,
both Senators, all 10 Congressmen, most sheriffs, all Democrats...Problem...? Maybe nationally,
but even then things could turn leftward, especially if Her Highness, as Hannity calls her, gets elected.

>>Stations are not obligated to carry a particular format. There are no grounds to challenge a station's license because you don't like their current format

The folks on the save prog talk yahoo group were trying to do that but now are saying something along the lines of "instead of challenging licenses, we need to buy a station ourselves". Well, Mr. Mindich, how about you? Or maybe a current Senator whose wife has a lot of Ketchup money...they could afford to buy
a station.

This is also why I don't like the idea of the govt. stepping in to regulate content on talk radio. It's a private business, so why does the FCC get control over content? Hey, the government feels we have too many
rock stations. 2 of them would get changed to R&B, one more to country, one to classical...too many
sports stations, so the FCC demands that one change to ethnic, one to standards; ridiculous, right?
So is the idea of a "Fairness Doctrine".

Oops, sorry--I attributed WAZN's calls to WLYN! Apologies.

>>An offer was made to begin carrying progressive talk immediately on WAZN. The offer was not taken seriously. True, WAZN does not have blanket coverage of the
entire Boston metro area. If it did cover the entire metro area, the costs would be much higher. It could, however, be a good start for assembling a "network" of local stations. Public access cable, subcarriers,webcasts just won't fit the bill.

Yes.

>>Some of the local people pushing for this format do not seem to have any idea of all of the costs involved in running a radio station. "Oh - we would rather buy our own station". This would take quite a while to set up. Assuming a station is, indeed, for sale, even a small station would set you back at least $1.5 million.

Around here, yes...if one were up in another part of New England it's be a bit less, but very costly here.

Good points, Jeff. And again, if people think lib talk could succeed and eventually it would be as popular
as Rush, go right ahead--that's what makes America great; hard work, pouring money and effort
into a good product that will succeed. In other forms of media the liberals have had much luck but
so far, not so much in talk radio.
 
Raccoon great point about the younger listeners. And it's not clear that FM rather than AM will have more luck. Will they just have to wait until the iPodders age? Maybe you can grow into talk radio.


Really you got my attention with the Phoenix. I have a close tie there. Ellen on Satrurdays (who I thought was good with Joe Sciacca from Herald) does a bit with the Phoenix and I think E&B do mention it.

But you are right. 24-year-olds I know were listening to Steph Miller .And they can still can on Satellite right?
 
Another large market without libtalk: Philadelphia. For a brief time, an African-American centered talk station carried Al Franken and Randy and a suburban AM without a city-grade signal carried Ed Schultz. Both stations dumped these shows. No one has picked up Randy, Schultz or Al's AAR successor, Thom Hartman.

Perhaps it's time for the two major libtalk syndicators, especially AAR, to try to place their shows on talk stations that aren't 24/7 libtalk.

Possible upcoming example: Stephanie Miller is allegedly going to be on Bonneville's remake of 1500AM after Labor Day, along with conservative syndicated hosts.

I bet some General Managers and Sales Managers are frightened of running/trying to sell an all libtalk station. Maybe the best hope for the existing hosts is on talk stations that don't proclaim one particular politcal lean.
 
>>great point about the younger listeners.

thanks--someone had pointed it out on the San Diego board but I had said something earlier about it--
talk listeners tend to skew older and liberals tend to skew younger (though more than a few 60s
radicals are still around; the ones who didn't drift right like PJ O'Rourke and David Horowitz!)

Yup, no libtalk in The City That Loves You Back...

>>Bonneville's remake of 1500AM

Yes, I'd heard inklings that Wash Post radio would be gone or at least re-made

>>And it's not clear that FM rather than AM will have more luck

The prog talk fans did manage to "save" the 92.1 in Madison from switching to sports, though

again you"d think that the Bos. Phoenix with its resources could give it a try
 
Radio is an expensive business, and the only way it survives commercially is sales people who can sell the product to advertisers who think there is value for the money they are spending on ads.

I read somewhere recently that when MRBI bought WLYN the price was somewhere around 1,600,000 dollars.

As Jeff mentioned that bought them a license, and maybe the transmitter in the shack at Caps Junk Yard.

It did not buy them real estate, or the services of their C.E, They had to rent studio space, telco lines, Hire 2 full time and one part time employees, workmans comp, etc.

Now it was my understanding that MRBI paid cash for the WLYN license, but considering they have, for round numbers, a 2 million dollar investment in the place in order to get a positive cash flow you need to charge a pretty penny for air time.

Similar situation for WAZN, which is where Lib Talk could have gotten a foot in the door in the market. I don't know what sort of money MRBI paid for the WSRO license from Langer, but between the license, getting the C.O.L. moved to Watertown, leasing tower space from Salem, etc, etc, etc, I don't think they are in there for short money, even though some costs are shared with WLYN. I have seen the number 1,800,000 tossed out as the purchase price, plus there was extensive legal and engineering work done to get the CP for the Lexington site turned into a real license. (Full disclosure I was working for MRBI during the CP process)

So we have another 2 million dollar plus investment that MRBI needs to make a R.O.I. on. Cripes just the nut on 2 mill at 6 percent over 15 years is 16 grand a month.. that is just debt service and nothing else, no studio, staff, transmitter site, electric, etc. And 6 percent would be optimistic for the cost of money in this economy. So if for the sake of conversation you have to come up with 30 grand a month just for the place to put lib talk, before you even pay for programming, you need to sell ads that are going to generate at least 1500 a day. I don't know what spots go for but I would assume that you'd have to sell a lot of spots to cover 1500... at 50 bucks a pop thats 300 inserts. 50 bucks a shout doesn't leave the sales dept much of a commission does it?

So that is my very uninformed, purely speculative opinion on why lib talk won't fly in Boston... just too damn expensive to get on the air. When the radio dreamers who want to put lib talk on the air run against the reality of the costs... they go back to their "paper or plastic" world.
 
radio costs...

Eloquently put, Neggy! ;D By running national ads from a national network you could come up with a good chunk of capital towards an hourly lease. It is kind of like Amway Products (who, at one time I believe, owned Mutual Radio Network) - yea, you can make a percentage off somebody else selling, who makes money from somebody ELSE selling - but, when push comes to shove, somebody gotta sell soap at some point!

It is not political, it is not racial - it is all about money. Capitalism, like many things, cuts both ways. A forward thinking individual who hustles, and is willing to put in some hard work, has the potential to make a few bucks. When somebody decides to step up to the plate and actually DO something, progressive talk will be on the air...
 
Because Mindich (a.k.a. Mr Maria Lopez) needs the Phoenix name out there as much as possible so people will pick up that rag of a whore directory that masquerades as an alternative newspaper.

If Mindich sopped taking ads for escort services, 900 numbers and assorted other deviancies his media empire would fold in a month.
 
Maloney by the way, is saying WOR will be where Imus lands: my source says otherwise. We shall see.

The industry maxim that liberals will listen to conservative talk (but never vice versa) rules. But I think this comes with a price. Entire stations being written off (or in my case taken off presets) by a public that has grown tired of the nonsense. Numbers are down.

It would be nice to have one progressive station and one classical-fm, that you could actually hear.
 
Neggy said:
Similar situation for WAZN, which is where Lib Talk could have gotten a foot in the door in the market. I don't know what sort of money MRBI paid for the WSRO license from Langer, but between the license, getting the C.O.L. moved to Watertown, leasing tower space from Salem, etc, etc, etc <SNIP>

So we have another 2 million dollar plus investment that MRBI needs to make a R.O.I. on. Cripes just the nut on 2 mill at 6 percent over 15 years is 16 grand a month.. that is just debt service and nothing else
Click to expand...

AFAIK, MRBI does not lease anything at the WTTT/WAZN site from Salem. The land, towers, and buildings are owned by American Tower Systems, which acquired them from Greater Media back when what is now ATS was ARS (minus the stations that ARS sold off separately). My understanding is that both MRBI and Salem lease the aforementioned items from ATS. The stations, of course, own the transmitters, phasors, ATU networks, audio-processing equipment, and backup power systems, if any.

Salem HATES leasing AM sites from others but loves having other AMs as tenants at sites it owns because such arrangements bring in additional revenue. In this case, one of the costs of being an ideologue broadcaster is the cost of leasing the transmitter site. However, I suspect that WTTT brings in enough revenue that Salem doesn't lose much, if any, money on it.

And on the interest on $2 million at 6%/year, do the math again! I think you'll find it's not $16k/month; it's $10k. Not an insigificant figure either, but it's 37.5% less than $16k.
 
>>and one classical-fm, that you could actually hear.

depends where one lives/works, of course. At my workplace WCRB 99.5 comes in just dandy from the
stick in Andover (I'm in N. Reading) but sadly I'm not quite a classical fan. (And no, Electric Light
Orchestra does not count! :) )
 
While AAR radio programming was hit and miss (Randy Rhodes and Steph Miller were quite entertaining, Franken was informative but too dry, the rest sounded like amateur nite), that was not their fatal flaw. They would have shook out the deadwieghters eventually.

Their fatal flaw was their business plan.

Premiere and Westwood One air a variety of programs across many different lines and stations. All of their eggs are not in one basket.
Salem, whose conservative talk network (aired on WTTT) has ratings about the same as AAR in most cities, survives because it is funded by a large broadcaster with deep pockets with zillions of O & O stations to guarantee clearance. If WTTT was an indie carrying Salem talk they would have canceled the agreement long ago.

On top of that, AAR--underfunded, with no O & O stations, no other programming offerings to float all boats, attempts to stage an hourly newscast! The whole business plan was madness, and it would have failed regardless of political leanings.

BTW, I question the blanket statement that Rush, Hannity, etc succeed because they are not agenda driven. When Hannity says (direct quote) "I will do everything in my power to make sure that Hillary Clinton is not the next President Of The United States", and Rush says
that "we must, my friends, defeat the Democrats at every opportunity"....well....what does that sound like to you?

I really feel their success is party due to the demos that they reach (older), who are still attuned to AM radio, and that particular crowd's availability to listen to radio at a time when many others can't or have other things to do with their lives.

As far as "the mass media is controlled by liberals" argument....well...take a look at who owns what. A pretty conservative bunch. Then why does pop culture have a more liberal slant (this is really the question)? Same reason, in my opinion, as why conservative radio works in the ratings. Available audience. Who goes to the movies? Who listens to newly recorded music? Rush demos/listeners? Generally not.
 
Dan the 16 K figure was P&I payment generated from an amortization program. Most banks require you to pay back the initial amount as well as the interest. I think WAZN was not paid for in cash, so we are not talking ROI, we are talking paying off the note.


My bad about ATS owning the tower site. I never had to go out there. I assumed Salem was the owner because as you pointed out, they really like to own their towers and lease space to others.
 
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