I have a question that I can never ever figure out. Why is it that stations such as WUFO-AM 1080 and WBBF-AM 1120 are only allowed to broadcast during daylight hours but stations such as WHLD-AM 1270, WECK AM 1230, and WWWS-AM 1400 are able to broacast twenty-four hours a day? Arn't they the about the same wattage. And would it be possible for WUFO AM 1080 at 1000 watts to ever interfear with WTIC 1080 in Hartford?
-
Get involved.
We want your input!
Apply for Membership and join the conversations about everything related to broadcasting.
After we receive your registration, a moderator will review it. After your registration is approved, you will be permitted to post.
If you use a disposable or false email address, your registration will be rejected.
After your membership is approved, please take a minute to tell us a little bit about yourself.
https://www.radiodiscussions.com/forums/introduce-yourself.1088/
Thanks in advance and have fun!
RadioDiscussions Administrators
Daytime Radio Stations
- Thread starter BUFFALOFLYGUY
- Start date
BUFFALOFLYGUY said:
It takes a LOT less signal to generate interference than it takes to provide service.
1080 and 1120 are "clear channels". ("clear channel" is a term in the FCC regulations. The well-known radio company named itself after the FCC term.) The Class A stations on these frequencies - WTIC, KRLD in Dallas, and on 1120, KMOX St. Louis - are running 50,000 watts fulltime. And they're protected from interference not only in their local groundwave coverage area, but out to several hundred miles of adjacent rurality. In the days before widespread FM service, this protected skywave coverage might be the only radio rural and small-town listeners could receive. (even today, it's often the only AM radio available in rural and small-town areas)
1270 is a "regional" channel, and 1340/1400 are "local" channels. The skywave coverage of Class B, C, and D stations on these channels is not protected, so it's possible to have other stations MUCH closer than is possible on a clear channel. Also, until very recently no station on a regional channel could use more than 5,000 watts. On local channels all stations are still limited to 1,000 watts. So for that reason as well, it's possible to have other stations much closer than is possible on a clear channel.
Stations occasionally cooperate with DXers in "DX Tests". These events take advantage of FCC regulation 73.72, which arguably allows a daytime-only station to operate between midnight and sunrise for testing, as long as the program is not regularly scheduled and no advertising is sold. In one recent DX Test, a 5,000-watt Montana station was heard in Maryland. A 1,000-watt station in western New York is definitely capable of causing interference in Connecticut!
w9wi said:
Nicely explained.
This leads me to offer that the days of the super-protected 50 kW clears should be over. Radio purists will take me to task for this heresy and I can understand their technical and emotional causes for concern. In fact, I've authored a few posts about the joy of DX'ing... for example, hearing a station from New Orleans (WWL 870kHz) while driving from Erie to Buffalo. Yet, for all practical intents, the 50kW era is long gone.
Interference already reigns on the AM band. It began when the Class-D's (old Class IV grave-yarders) were permitted to go to 1 kW at night. So what the hell... why not allow stations on clear channels (such as WBBF and WUFO), with certain required milage separations, to run 250-500 Watts at night or fulltime (with the caveat that programming must be LOCAL and LIVE or else the fulltime authority is revoked) with a two-three tower directional array away from the 1-A clear?
I realize the separation requirements already seem lax to many engineers, but can it get any worse? It pains me to say this, but it's quite likely that ten years from now AM radio will be a dead zone, strangled not so much by on-channel or co-channel interference as by corporate owners who just don't give a rat's assets.
Why not let the local enterpreneurs get their chance at serving their communities full time.
-9-
A
anoldguy
Guest
I think in the years to come AM daytimers will cease to exist. If they cannot be granted a low power signal at night (250 watts or better) they will not be able to compete. Most of these stations are in small markets and depend on local live high school sports to make money. I don't see some stations such as 1550 or 1080 ever being granted a significant night signal.
Frankly, I was surprised that WYSL was granted the 20KW upgrade and even allowed the 500 watts at night on 1040 -good for them.
950 in Rochester is now sharing their broadcasting facilities on South Clinton Ave with 1460 which makes the property more useful and profitable to Entercom. Admitting, I am sure a lot of developers have their eyes on the property.
Speaking of 950, I still believe their 1,000 signal really isn't hat bad. If people want to listen to it they will. As far as the night signal goes, a lot of radio stations would like to have their 1,000 directional signal on 950.
In many parts of the country, such as California, AM daytimers are going the way of drive-in theatres. The properties they sit on are just too valuable. The operators are selling out and turning off their transmitters, which in some cases, benefit other stations on the same frequencies
I
Frankly, I was surprised that WYSL was granted the 20KW upgrade and even allowed the 500 watts at night on 1040 -good for them.
950 in Rochester is now sharing their broadcasting facilities on South Clinton Ave with 1460 which makes the property more useful and profitable to Entercom. Admitting, I am sure a lot of developers have their eyes on the property.
Speaking of 950, I still believe their 1,000 signal really isn't hat bad. If people want to listen to it they will. As far as the night signal goes, a lot of radio stations would like to have their 1,000 directional signal on 950.
In many parts of the country, such as California, AM daytimers are going the way of drive-in theatres. The properties they sit on are just too valuable. The operators are selling out and turning off their transmitters, which in some cases, benefit other stations on the same frequencies
I
Element9 said:
Because the lack the money and resources to do it properly.
I'd much rather hear WCBS with their great all news format than paid programming or syndicated talk...but that's just me.
I would be in favor of having frequencies for honest to goodness clear channel stations where they could run at least 500KW.
Mike Sheridan said:
I have to agree.
A "newsradio 88" repeater with some local content thrown in has always sounded good to me, but the cost of running the station may still be proven to be costly.
I don't want to put words in Mike Sheridan's keyboard, but it appears he means he wants to hear the original clear channel, like 880 WCBS or 770 WABC.Yeziknoradio said:
The clear channels may be the only things that save AM radio; that is, clear channel stations that are actually programmed to compete, unlike WWKB which just sits there gurgling. So sad...
Ay-yi-yi...a new year and here I've already mentioned KB and it's feckless programming.
But I digress. The AM band doesn't need any further degradation from local stations interfering with bona fide clear channel stations. Not surprisingly, I disagree with 9 (don't thing I missed the revised spelling on the quote.)
Happy New Year. By the way, what the hell did you guys do to my family room!?
[rad]
Another question about daytime only AM stations.
Was there a time when stations other than "clear channels" were entitled to skywave protection at night? The reason I ask is because I can remember growing up with a small town AM station that was licensed at 500 watts daytime only, and the frequency it operated on, (1380), was not a "clear channel", at least, not to my knowledge anyway.
So, if there were no 50kw stations on their freq to contend with after dark, which station(s) were they protecting by signing off after sunset.
Since then, this station has been granted nighttime operation, as have several other former daytimers in the region. So I am guessing the rules have been modified somewhat.
Thanks, as always, for your imput. And thanks for another fascinating thread.
Was there a time when stations other than "clear channels" were entitled to skywave protection at night? The reason I ask is because I can remember growing up with a small town AM station that was licensed at 500 watts daytime only, and the frequency it operated on, (1380), was not a "clear channel", at least, not to my knowledge anyway.
So, if there were no 50kw stations on their freq to contend with after dark, which station(s) were they protecting by signing off after sunset.
Since then, this station has been granted nighttime operation, as have several other former daytimers in the region. So I am guessing the rules have been modified somewhat.
Thanks, as always, for your imput. And thanks for another fascinating thread.
A
anoldguy
Guest
A couple things might have happened to allow that 1380 to remain on at night. A while back the FCC did modify the rules to allow some daytimers to stay on at night. Years ago the mimimum power was 250 watts. If you couldn't maintain the power and not interfer with other stations you had to sign off at sunset. The fCC now allows station to have various power on their frequeincies -whether it be 250 watts or 3 watts. In the 1970's rules were modified so some stations had a pre sunset and post sunset power -usually 500 watts. This meant stations could broadcast from 6AM to 6PM even in the winter. A station could be 1,000 watts day, drop to 500 watts pre & post sunset, and drop again to whatever the FCC would allow them in the night hours.
Or your 1380 people may have put up more towers and gone directional for a night time signal.
Or your 1380 people may have put up more towers and gone directional for a night time signal.
Radknowski said:I don't want to put words in Mike Sheridan's keyboard, but it appears he means he wants to hear the original clear channel, like 880 WCBS or 770 WABC.Yeziknoradio said:
The clear channels may be the only things that save AM radio; that is, clear channel stations that are actually programmed to compete, unlike WWKB which just sits there gurgling. So sad...
Ay-yi-yi...a new year and here I've already mentioned KB and it's feckless programming.
But I digress. The AM band doesn't need any further degradation from local stations interfering with bona fide clear channel stations. Not surprisingly, I disagree with 9 (don't thing I missed the revised spelling on the quote.)
Happy New Year. By the way, what the hell did you guys do to my family room!?
[rad]
Yes you got it right....but I have often wondered why a big group like CC or CBS hasn't done an expensive format like All-News and just share the cost and resources with their many stations.
Somebody isn't going to like this but I think ALL daytimers should be eliminated. The band would sound a lot better especially around sunrise and sunset. Then take any area which had a daytime only station that could not receive at least one AM or FM station (I doubt there would be many) and try to give them a full time station on AM or FM. I know this would never fly and I'm oversimplafying here but the reason for daytime only stations has been over for some time now.
Element9 said:
I suspect few if any owners would take the FCC up on such a regulation...
Interference protection seems like such a simple concept - ask the engineers, will WUFO cause interference if allowed to operate at night, or won't it? It gets complex when you have to decide just how cheap - or expensive - of a radio do you want to protect?
If you protect a $5 scan-tuning headset radio, then you're going to have to keep (FM) stations in the same city at least 800KHz apart, but you can reuse the same frequency with 100,000-watt stations only maybe 75-100 miles apart. On the other hand, if you protect a $400 tuner with a 9-element Yagi at 40 feet, you can have stations only 200KHz apart - but you can't reuse the same frequency within 300 miles. The same dilemna affects AM, it's just that the specific numbers are different. Pick a point somewhere between these extremes. Whatever you pick, you're going to cause interference to someone's reception - and you're going to leave open spots on the dial that are going to leave someone asking "why can't someone put a station there to play my favorite music?"...
Where I live (30 miles outside Nashville) WSM is the ONLY local AM station that delivers an interference-free signal at night. My only other night choices are skywave signals from St. Louis, Atlanta, New Orleans, Chicago, Detroit, etc.. Let the daytimers in East Tennessee, southern Illinois, central Kentucky, here in Nashville, operate at night - and I could easily end up with ONE nighttime AM choice. Listeners in areas of Tennessee outside WSM's groundwave coverage could end up with NOTHING.
Except all of us have multiple FM choices. (+/- IBOC(grin)) Is FM service co-equal with AM? That, too, is a political argument I'm not willing to wade into...
C
chartguy
Guest
Mike Sheridan said:
Actually, it has been done - but it was tried too early in the scheme of things. NBC Radio BRIEFLY had a subsidiary called NIS, "News and Information Service," back around the 1971 era. I don't think it even lasted a year, and WTTO-1520 Toledo, which was a local for me at the time, was one of its affiliates. I've since forgotten who the others were but I think their network had 50 or 60 stations, and I remember local programming...I THINK...interspersed with the network. Of course 1971 was well before the public became junkies of "information" type radio (whether it be news, talk or NPR-type). If they had tried this in 1988 or something, no doubt it would have worked.
C
chartguy
Guest
Since this forum is about DAYTIME RADIO STATIONS, I have a question - and I've had the question for decades. I'm wondering if anybody even has an answer to it anymore. (Actually, this turned into two questions before I finished...)
Obviously, in the early days of radio, various licenses were granted. Some stations had high wattages on clear channels. Of course quite a few fulltime (with unrestricted hours, and often with different day-and-night powers, and often directional at night) were granted, as well as daytimers. Quite a few stations had "share-time" licenses, with the share-timers having specified broadcast hours. I remember when Seattle and Pullman WA, over 300 miles apart, had a share-time arrangement on 1250, I think it lasted into the 70s but now they can both be on at the same time. Some other stations, usually noncommercial college stations or extremely rural stations, had "specified hours" licenses, though not limited because of other stations they could interfere with. Actually I don't know, but my hunch is that "specified hours" licenses were common in the early FCC days, and perhaps during the FRC days (if they regulated such things), even for smaller commercial stations
And a handful of stations ended up with licenses which dictated their hours because of a clear-channel station on the same frequency, such as when WHLO (nee' WHKK)-640 Akron and WJJD-1160 Chicago had to sign off at sunset times for Los Angeles and Salt Lake City, respectively. I think the last of these archaic sign-off arrangements have disappeared, though WCKY-1530 Cincinnati has to "suck it in" at Sacramento sunset...and doesn't WQEW-1560 New York STILL have to "suck it in" at Bakersfield sunset? These don't make a lot of sense to me anymore now that former daytimers have encroached much closer to these Californians, sometimes with significant nighttime power, in recent years.
I can think of at least one share-time arrangement remaining in the United States: commercial KDEC, and college/noncommercial KWLC, broadcasting from Decorah, Iowa on 1240. Is that all that's left, now that I believe 1450/Cicero IL now belongs solely to WCEV?
My real question, though, is this: **IS THERE ANY RECORD OF WHEN THE VERY FIRST DAYTIME-ONLY LICENSE, DICTATING THAT A GIVEN RADIO STATION COULD OPERATE SOLELY BETWEEN THE HOURS OF LOCAL SUNRISE AND LOCAL SUNSET, ISSUED?** I know they weren't doing that like in 1921 or 1922, but that means it had to start at some point...
Obviously, in the early days of radio, various licenses were granted. Some stations had high wattages on clear channels. Of course quite a few fulltime (with unrestricted hours, and often with different day-and-night powers, and often directional at night) were granted, as well as daytimers. Quite a few stations had "share-time" licenses, with the share-timers having specified broadcast hours. I remember when Seattle and Pullman WA, over 300 miles apart, had a share-time arrangement on 1250, I think it lasted into the 70s but now they can both be on at the same time. Some other stations, usually noncommercial college stations or extremely rural stations, had "specified hours" licenses, though not limited because of other stations they could interfere with. Actually I don't know, but my hunch is that "specified hours" licenses were common in the early FCC days, and perhaps during the FRC days (if they regulated such things), even for smaller commercial stations
And a handful of stations ended up with licenses which dictated their hours because of a clear-channel station on the same frequency, such as when WHLO (nee' WHKK)-640 Akron and WJJD-1160 Chicago had to sign off at sunset times for Los Angeles and Salt Lake City, respectively. I think the last of these archaic sign-off arrangements have disappeared, though WCKY-1530 Cincinnati has to "suck it in" at Sacramento sunset...and doesn't WQEW-1560 New York STILL have to "suck it in" at Bakersfield sunset? These don't make a lot of sense to me anymore now that former daytimers have encroached much closer to these Californians, sometimes with significant nighttime power, in recent years.
I can think of at least one share-time arrangement remaining in the United States: commercial KDEC, and college/noncommercial KWLC, broadcasting from Decorah, Iowa on 1240. Is that all that's left, now that I believe 1450/Cicero IL now belongs solely to WCEV?
My real question, though, is this: **IS THERE ANY RECORD OF WHEN THE VERY FIRST DAYTIME-ONLY LICENSE, DICTATING THAT A GIVEN RADIO STATION COULD OPERATE SOLELY BETWEEN THE HOURS OF LOCAL SUNRISE AND LOCAL SUNSET, ISSUED?** I know they weren't doing that like in 1921 or 1922, but that means it had to start at some point...
chartguy said:
Paraphrased from FCC regulation 73.23 as it existed in 1966:
U - "Unlimited Time": permits operation without a maximum limit as to time.
L - "Limited Time": permits operation of a secondary station on a clear channel during daytime, and until local sunset if west of the dominant station, or until sunset at the dominant station, if east of it; also, during any nighttime hours not used by the dominant station. (this latter clause was quite relevant in the days when most stations did NOT operate all night. Indeed, it would seem this latter clause would be the *only* reason to have a L - instead of a D - license if you're west of the dominant station) No "L" stations were authorized after 30 November 1959.
D - "Daytime": permits operation between sunrise and sunset. No new "D" stations are being authorized.
ST - "Sharing Time": Operating time on the channel is split between two or more stations. The authorized hours are specified in the station license.
SH - "Specified Hours": The authorized hours are specified in the station license. My understanding is that such licenses were issued to stations that had showed they could not, for economic reasons, comply with the minimum operating schedule regulations - but were located in areas where no other service was available. Where the local area would get either part-time service or nothing at all. I don't see any provisions for "SH" stations in the current rules.
Of course, most stations are "U", unlimited time; almost all of the rest are "D".
There was a specified hours station in Idaho as recently as the last five years, but I don't believe there are any left today. KMMJ-750 Grand Island, Nebraska still holds a "L" license, operating from local sunrise until Atlanta sunset. Other "L" stations include WKDZ-1110 Cadiz, Ky. and WDAO-1210 Dayton, Ohio. (the latter allowed to sign on at Philadelphia sunrise) I suspect there are a few more but probably fewer than ten.
It should be noted that regulation 73.23 as it exists today is completely unrelated to the 73.23 that existed in 1966.
According to the NRC AM Log, yes, WCKY and WQEW's pattern changes are still at California sunset. Chicago 1160 is also allowed to remain on day facilities until Salt Lake sunset.
WHLO and WJJD were "L" stations, see above. I guess they escaped "L" status by installing nighttime directional antennas - some kind of loosening of the clear channel rules must have made that permissible.
The "special" rules applicable to WCKY, WQEW, and WYLL (Chicago 1160) are quite a bit more liberal than would ordinarily apply - they're allowed to remain on day facilities for 2-3 hours longer than would otherwise be allowable. I guess you could argue whether these special rules should apply to *all* stations - whether everyone on a clear channel and east of the Class A station should be allowed to operate until sunset at the Class A operation. I wonder if these were allowed because it was felt the interference area would be in lightly populated desert? Actually I suspect it was a political decision...
It's my understanding that 1450 Cicero does NOT belong solely to WCEV, WVON is continuing to program its hours on the channel under the WRLL calls.
There's a growth area for share-time arrangements: low-power FM. A number of cities have multiple LPFMs sharing time. Also, a new share-time situation was created in the Minneapolis suburb of St. Louis Park about two years ago - it also involved the first new Class D FM station since the mid-1980s.
That's a very good question, I'd love to see the answer! I would suspect it happened in the late 1920s.
Staying on topic, about when was WTOR licensed? It seems to me they signed on less than 10 years ago, but even back then I thought that the FCC has stopped granting daytime only licenses.
So, did it just take the owners of WTOR a long time to get the facility built after the CP was granted?
So, did it just take the owners of WTOR a long time to get the facility built after the CP was granted?
w9wi said:
There are a few exceptions. Down here in eastern PA WEEU is on 830 kHz, same as WCCO out of Minneapolis, which puts out 50kw non-directional; that would seem (to me) to be a Class A clear channel station.
WEEU puts out 20kw days, 6kw nights; the nighttime signal protects WCCO and sharply nulls to the NW.
FWIW, a few years back the 1kw locals were restricted to 250w nights. Growing up in East Aurora I could hear WUSJ (now WLVL) days but not at all at nights.
Richard in Allentown, PA (ex-East Aurora)
You're correct Richard, 50k outta one big stick. W-C-C-O, Radio 8-3-Oh
Just checked the WEEU pattern on radio locator and it looks' pretty hefty daytime and not at all bad at night.
As some already have noted, the Class D stations (once known as Class IV stations) receive severe co-channel interference at night, now that most of these "locals" are running 1kW at night.
This thread motivated me to search the Pastrick Archives (aka, "the boxes in the basement") in search of an old Broadcasting Yearbook from the mid 70's which offers a tidy explanation of the (long since revised) FCC Rules 73.25, Clear channels: Class I and II stations; 73.26, Regional channels: Class III-A and III-B stations, 550,560, 570, 580, 590, 600, 610, 620, 630, 790, 910, 920, 930, 950, 960, 970, 980, 1150, 1250, 1260, 1270, 1280, 1290, 1300, 1310, 1320, 1330, 1350, 1360, 1370, 1380, 1390, 1410, 1420, 1430, 1440, 1460, 1470, 1480, 1590, and 1600 (including Cuban Class I-C ((essentially a Cuban clear channel)) assignment on 550 and I-D assignments on 570, 590, 630, 920, 950 and 980; and FCC R&R 73.27, Local channels: Class IV stations 1230, 1240, 1340, 1400, 1450 and 1490. (Interestingly, 1340 was omitted from the 1976 Yearbook ((p. A-13)) summary.)
The Broadcasting Yearbook summary is an interesting treatise from the historical perspective. Growing up in Western New York, it was always a thrill to DX the big 50's and a bonus to DX the regionals, e.g., hearing WTRY (980) Albany or WARM (590) Scranton, PA or WHK (1420) Cleveland and WDAF (610) Kansas City at night in Buffalo. After Jack Armstrong left KB for 13-Q Pittsburgh (WKTQ 1320, which has returned to its original call letters, WJAS), I could often hear his act on the 1320 signal.
Jim Pastrick
Element9 said:
The FCC stopped regulating content in really any form close to two decades ago. Why should they return to this? Should every FM station be required to run 5 minutes an hour of news? Should TV stations go back to signing off instead of running infomercials?
JimPastrick said:
Indeed -- I had a well-worn edition of "White's Radio Log", embedded in "Radio/TV Experimenter", for that purpose. I enjoyed camping out on the regional channels, just in the off chance I'd get an ID. I ID'd WIL / St. Louis on our old kitchen radio in East Aurora running 1 kW at night.
Nowadays, some daytimers that stream on the web actually continue with programming after local sunset...though I suspect it's all automated programming.
Richard in Allentown, PA
rdcuffpa1 said:
I guess I don't see where that's an exception. WCCO is indeed a Class A station - WEEU must protect WCCO's skywave coverage out to some distance. (I want to say 750 miles)
The rules were at one time a lot tighter - I still remember a time when WOAI was the ONLY station allowed to operate on 1200 at night, and it's my understanding that in earlier years many other channels were literally clear - with only ONE station operating at night.
- Status