Daytime television presumed lost

[chris12]

From what I understand up until the early 80s, the majority of network daytime game shows no longer exist. Many good shows such as the original Match Game, the early years of the $10,000 Pyramid, the ABC 71-75 Password just to name a few. What were some of the reasons and how were they dispensed. Was it the production companies who destroyed the tapes or the networks? I've heard some tapes were thrown out or reused and even rumors of a mass erasure at NBC around 1978. It seems that at least from the 70s CBS has the most stuff left and much more than ABC or NBC.

 

[Tim-In-Houston]

There's more than few originals floating around, but sadly most daytime shows were lost.

I know GSN has access to a few $10,000 Pyramid eps (I think its the CBS season). They aired them several years back (when they were Game Show Network) and I recorded the set on videotape.

I think most NBC gameshows were lost in the 70s, erased en masse as you said to make room in the NBC vault. There seems to be quite a number of episodes worth of the original Hollywood Squares still around, though they were believed lost for years. Occasionally I see clips of the 70s daytime Wheel Of Fortune shown in "E! True Holywood story" type segments so there must be a few episodes around (there's at least one complete christmas episode available on Youtube).

I don't know about ABC other than the ABC version of Password is pretty much gone, and I imagine the ABC seasons of Pyramid are too. I've heard that the original syndicated $25,000 Pyramid (Cullen) exists, but that the distributor isn't allowing them to be aired. Don't know why.

Goodson-Todman Productions was the best at keeping archives, it would appear, since they have episodes of their gameshows going back to the early-50s, with, as far as I know, the only thing missing is the afformentioned ABC Password series (why they didn't keep these tapes I can't imagine).

And who knows, maybe there are more tapes (or reels) buried somewhere deep back in the archive vaults that just haven't been found yet.

 

[mmb5]

A lot of this is well reasoned speculation but remember it is what it is, speculation.

The major reason that most pre-80s game shows are gone is because they were presumed to have no rerun value. Remember that before 1977, there was no national cable channels, so there was no need for reruns beyond the networks and their affiliates, and old game shows were not considered a draw. The extent of what is gone is dependent on network and production company. Many production companies never asked for their shows back, with the exception of Goodson-Todman, who made some money off a syndication of the last two seasons of Password in the late 60s/early 70s and pretty much kept every show from that point. Why they then did not keep 70s Password is a mystery.

CBS - Pretty much anything post-1973 is extant save for Gambit, $10,000 Pyramid and minor shows that lasted less than a year. The network runs of Jokers Wild and Spin-off were found during a cleaning of WCBS in the early 2000s. The post above mentions CBS-$10K Pyramid as being saved, but only 15 episodes (the ones shot in L.A.) are believed to be extant.

NBC - Pretty much anything pre-1979 is gone and anything between 1979 and 1982 is iffy at best. Hollywood Squares was presumed lost but a majority of it was later found in the hunt for Milton Berle's lost tapes (there's conflicting reports on what was left). It is believed that most of the NBC inventory was thrown out in 1978.

ABC - Pretty much anything up until 1976 is gone save the Barris shows. It is believed that their tapes went for reuse rather than disposal, much of the early run of Family Feud was done on old Password masters. For Pyramid, the cutoff year is 1978.

Syndicated - Most everything from the 70s and beyond is believed to be in existence.


--Mike

 

[Ultimajock]

NBC - Pretty much anything pre-1979 is gone and anything between 1979 and 1982 is iffy at best. Hollywood Squares was presumed lost but a majority of it was later found in the hunt for Milton Berle's lost tapes (there's conflicting reports on what was left).

...the surviving NBC-era "Hollywood Squares" are mainly *nighttime* shows (brief NBC runs in 1968 and 1969, and the 1972-1980 syndicated version taped at NBC). I recall reading at the time that only about five or six of the daytime shows were among the inventory, which had been at a storage facility that Heatter-Quigley Productions had set up and then largely forgotten. And I doubt that those were Berle *tapes* they were searching for, as Berle's weekly show ran long before videotape was developed, and kinescopes transferred to tape (in the '80s, if they ever were) would not be likely to be "lost"...

 

[anotherguyTN]

It wasn't just daytime TV. I've read that most of Johnny Carson's Tonight shows from before they moved to LA in 1972(?) are gone. When Carson did his final show all they had was audio and still photos of the first show.

 

[NoWayNoCC]

Soap operas are another type of show where early episodes are pretty much gone.

I've heard that all the episodes of 'All My Children' prior to 1976 were ruined in a warehouse fire. Supposedly the only exceptions are a few episodes that survive on black-and-white kinescopes (even though this soap didn't debut until 1970). (I don't know why they would have made kinescopes back when the originial copies still existed though.)

 

[Braves2005]

One episode of ABC Password does exist in its entirety and that is the episode which Jack Klugman and Brett Somers appeared in 1973. Last year, GSN aired this episode.

GSN has also aired several Peter Marshall episodes of Hollywood Squares, most of these being the night time version but they did carry some of the daytime run as well.

GSN has also aired The 20,000 Pyramid especially the episode featuring William Shatner having a fit and the Loretta Swit episode that was featured in a commercial.

I think that ALL NBC Wheel Of Fortune episodes that feature Chuck Woolery and Susan Stafford are gone or in a vault somewhere, so have the early Pat Sajak and Susan Stafford episodes are gone as well or in a vault. The only episodes that exist now are the Pat and Vanna episodes, both NBC and syndication.

 

[genius]

Soap operas are another type of show where early episodes are pretty much gone.

I've heard that all the episodes of 'All My Children' prior to 1976 were ruined in a warehouse fire. Supposedly the only exceptions are a few episodes that survive on black-and-white kinescopes (even though this soap didn't debut until 1970). (I don't know why they would have made kinescopes back when the originial copies still existed though.)

I didn't know about the fire, but it's true most of the early All My Children episodes are gone. Several years ago All My Children was having a big event for their 30th anniversary and went into a desperate scamble to find anything from the early years to show for the event. Lucky for them they finally found some clips...in someone's attic...

Family owned soaps like Days of Our Lives(began in '65) and Young and the Restless(began in '73) have most if not all their episodes saved. Proctor and Gamble didn't start saving shows until the late 70s, but there's still a lot of material around for shows like Guiding Light, As The World Turns from the 50s and 60s saved on kinescopes Infact the very first episode of Search For Tomorrow from 1951 still exists too. However, Another World, while a P&G serial, didn't always save their shows once the others began...infact there are episodes as recent as 1986 that missing from archives.

However network-owned soaps' like Love of Life on CBS are indeed pretty much gone.

 

[mleach]

Whenever I hear about the networks in one form or another getting rid of their archives for whatever reason, sometimes I have to wonder just how accurate is that.

For years I heard that the long defunct Metromedia Television pretty much destroyed all of their old stuff such as Soupy Sales' WNEW-TV program, Joe Pyne and Merv Griffin's talk shows and Bob McAllister's kids show Wonderama.

Yet...
Clips of Joe Pyne's late 60s show arer available on TV Party, while there are some clips from Wonderama featuring ABBA on You Tube. And doesn't Merv have ( or will be ) a DVD out featuring some of his interviews?

Another show over the years that I heard was either destroyed or "locked away so it would never be seen again", is that infamous Turn-On show that ABC aired in 1969. Turn-On is available for viewing I have been told at Museum of Radio & TV in New York and I think in LA too.

"..NBC destroyed all copies of Pink Lady & Jeff"...heard that too. Of course that is false, its on DVD now.

I believe there is a lot more vintage TV out there than anyone can imagine.

 

[bhayes1016]

And doesn't Merv have ( or will be ) a DVD out featuring some of his interviews?

Merv may have purchased the rights to his show.

 

[ixnay]

Soap operas are another type of show where early episodes are pretty much gone.

I've heard that all the episodes of 'All My Children' prior to 1976 were ruined in a warehouse fire. Supposedly the only exceptions are a few episodes that survive on black-and-white kinescopes (even though this soap didn't debut until 1970). (I don't know why they would have made kinescopes back when the originial copies still existed though.)

So THAT's why, during a several weeks long run of classic ABC soaps at 12:30(?)p ET in either the late '90s or early in this millenium, a AMC from 1970 aired in B&W!

ixnay

 

[NoWayNoCC]

You know another old show that's reportedly lost? The '70s kids show 'Zoom.' I heard all the episodes were taped over to make way for new programs.

From what I hear, all the old episodes of 'Sesame Street' still exist, however. (I could be wrong on that though.) Recently they put out a DVD containing the season premieres for the first 5 seasons. While this set doesn't include any other whole episodes, it does include some clips from other episodes.

 

[Tim L]

I've told this story before, but Mike Douglas relates during the WKYC-TV 3 Cleveland 50th anniversary special that many of the earliest Mike Douglas Shows, including a week with a Young Barbra Sreisand as hostess, were erased by then-KYW owner Westinghouse to put station editorials on. Also during this same special, Channel 3 mentions that very little from NBC's ownership of WKYC..either 1948-56 or 1965-90 eras was saved..before 1978..which confirms that NBC as a network saved very little daytime programming before 1978.

 

[searadiofreak]

I blame the "judge" shows. There are atleast 10 different legal court shows available for syndication. I know some stations (mostly independents, so getting away from the original theme of this thread), that run several hours of these "judge" shows back to back to back.
I don't get it. There must be an audience for it, but 4-5 hours a day? The word "overkill" comes to mind.

 

[Ultimajock]

And doesn't Merv have ( or will be ) a DVD out featuring some of his interviews?

Merv may have purchased the rights to his show.

...Griffin, burned by his experience of quitting Westinghouse for CBS (both of whom wiped the majority of tapes of his shows for them prior to 1972), struck a deal with Metromedia to have Griffin Productions own and produce the show and Metromedia would simply distribute it. Thus, Griffin still owns the tapes for that version of his talk show. Same thing for Dick Cavett; his morning show was owned by ABC, but starting with the prime time run in the summer of 1969, all of his shows were co-owned by his Daphne Productions unit and Rollins & Jaffe, his management firm (the same ones that co-produced Woody Allen's United Artists films of the '70s). Only a half-hour kinescoped clip special from June 1968 and small bits and pieces of individual interviews still survive of that morning show. I think the first performer to do this was Steve Allen, whose 1960s talk shows were produced and owned by his Meadowlane Enterprises company and distributed by Westinghouse...

 

[mmb5]

One episode of ABC Password does exist in its entirety and that is the episode which Jack Klugman and Brett Somers appeared in 1973. Last year, GSN aired this episode.

GSN has also aired several Peter Marshall episodes of Hollywood Squares, most of these being the night time version but they did carry some of the daytime run as well.

GSN has also aired The 20,000 Pyramid especially the episode featuring William Shatner having a fit and the Loretta Swit episode that was featured in a commercial.

I think that ALL NBC Wheel Of Fortune episodes that feature Chuck Woolery and Susan Stafford are gone or in a vault somewhere, so have the early Pat Sajak and Susan Stafford episodes are gone as well or in a vault. The only episodes that exist now are the Pat and Vanna episodes, both NBC and syndication.

A few corrections here:

1. The Password episode was from 1971. A handful of others do exist, but are not in broadcast quality, including a few originally aired but recorded in B&W episodes in the UCLA archive.

2. The William Shatner episode in question did not air on GSN (it's from a 1976 episode). Any clip of it you see on YouTube or anywhere else doesn't have a GSN bug on it, it's another circulated tape. The one from the Comcast episode did air on GSN.

Since I've been following this, the amount of shows that are starting to pop up means there probably is more than we probably know about. Hollywood Squares (whether it is just the nighttime episodes or the whole thing is still not clear) and the CBS run of Jokers Wild and Spin-Off were considered lost but have now been found. ABC just dumped a whole slew of shows onto UCLA's archive which included a full set of the early 60's Dick Clark stinker "The Object Is", and NBC just sent some Concentration episodes to the Library of Congress. At least one episode of every major game show does seem to exist save three -- Baffle, Snap Judgment and Wizard of Odds.

The additional problem in viewing then comes in converting it. At high-three-figures per tape afor conversion nd any network (including GSN) lucky to recoup that in advertising for a show that would get a very, very low rating, some of the "found items" may become "lost items" once again.


--Mike