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"Desperately Seeking Portable HD"

7

700WLW

Guest
"Desperately Seeking Portable HD"

"When Will We See Handheld HD Radios? Don't Hold Your Breath" :D

"So it is with great irony that while the handheld receiver provides perhaps the strongest argument for the value of HD Radio's multipath immunity, such a device remains just out of reach due to battery-life constraints.As a result, the lack of handheld HD Radio receivers - at least for the next few years - will keep the fledgling technology from becoming a player in the increasingly important portable audio industry. Given the strength and projected growth of that sector, this absence could have significant impact on HD Radio's success, as well as to the radio industry's overall relevance to future audiences." :D

http://rwonline.com/pages/s.0054/t.359.html
 
700WLW said:
"Desperately Seeking Portable HD"

"When Will We See Handheld HD Radios? Don't Hold Your Breath" :D

"So it is with great irony that while the handheld receiver provides perhaps the strongest argument for the value of HD Radio's multipath immunity, such a device remains just out of reach due to battery-life constraints.As a result, the lack of handheld HD Radio receivers - at least for the next few years - will keep the fledgling technology from becoming a player in the increasingly important portable audio industry. Given the strength and projected growth of that sector, this absence could have significant impact on HD Radio's success, as well as to the radio industry's overall relevance to future audiences." :D

http://rwonline.com/pages/s.0054/t.359.html
What multipath immunity?
When HD Radios encounter multipath and digital packets get scrambled, they just play the stored buffer, mute, or fold back to analog (when available). That is NOT the same thing as being immune to multipath.
 
SUPERCASTER spaketh:

What multipath immunity?
When HD Radios encounter multipath and digital packets get scrambled, they just play the stored buffer, mute, or fold back to analog (when available). That is NOT the same thing as being immune to multipath.

You're darn right it's not the same thing!

Let me tell you where the term "multipath immunity" came from. It came from the guy who had the very first (and original) idea about developing digital radio. He wanted it to be "so good" that it would be immune to the effects of multipath, which as we know, can be pretty bad in large metropolitan areas.

Of course, that never became a reality. As Montgomery Scott would say, "Sorry Captain, I cannot change the laws of physics".

Oh yes... the guy who had the very first (and original) idea about developing digital radio, for whatever readon, is no longer involved with it. That's just one of those things that happen in the naked city.
 
Who was that , Cal?

I know that there was a lot of work done on PCM audio during World War II, but nothing much came of it at the time vacuum tube technology was not well suited to digital applications. (Ever seen the remains of part of Eniac at Penn? I have. Racks and racks of tubes have less computing power than a lot of the chips in appliances today!)
 
Cal Stymes said:
SUPERCASTER spaketh:
Let me tell you where the term "multipath immunity" came from. It came from the guy who had the very first (and original) idea about developing digital radio. He wanted it to be "so good" that it would be immune to the effects of multipath, which as we know, can be pretty bad in large metropolitan areas.

Of course, that never became a reality. As Montgomery Scott would say, "Sorry Captain, I cannot change the laws of physics".

You can develop a system that's mostly immune to multipath...however since radio is a broadcast system using only one transmitter, you'd have to put the intelligence into the receiver. Problem: rake receivers are almost certainly more power hungry than digital codecs, and would make the portability problem even worse.
 
What multipath immunity?
When HD Radios encounter multipath and digital packets get scrambled, they just play the stored buffer, mute, or fold back to analog (when available). That is NOT the same thing as being immune to multipath.
[/quote]

That is not entirely true. I recently purchased a JVC HD radio and have tested it extensively in the Cincinnati and Dayton areas. I purposely drove to areas plauged by multipath. With the radio in the all-analog mode, I went to the areas where the signal was strong, but at the same time, distorted by multipath. Before switching to the all-digital, I remained in the all-analog mode just to make sure the distortion wasn't just a passing atmospheric phenomonem such as a plane passing overhead. In all cases, the all-digital signals (i.e. HD1 and HD2) were clear, and did not mute or fall back to analog (During my tests, the radio couldn't fall back to analog because I purposely placed it in the digital-only mode). Conversely, you could have a weak but sharp signal which will not be receivable in the digital mode. But then we are comparing apples to steaks. Although I can't state that HD has multipath immunity, it is definately resistant to multipath. It would be interesting to hear digital reception reports from places such as Denver and Salt Lake City where multipath is particularly severe.
 
radioskeptic asked:

Who was that , Cal?

Unfortunately I can't tell you because it might help people to figure out who I am and as I've said before in this here forum, I want to keep my job. :) But I will tell you this:

When he dreamed up the idea of digital broadcasting he was employed in broadcasting. Now he is employed doing very much the same thing that he did before in broadcasting but in a competing technology to broadcasting instead. I cannot identify what that competing technology is. His name is also not one you would immediately recognize unless you were very familiar with the names of some of the several influential individuals there have been in broadcast engineering over the past 20 years. That's all I'll say about that!

Len14043 observed:

Although I can't state that HD has multipath immunity, it is definately resistant to multipath.

That is correct and also an excellent observation! It is not "multipath immune" but it is "multipath resistant". And that is exactly what the individual to whom I was referring above had in mind. He wanted to find a coding/decoding algorithm that would be "multipath resistant" since he knew that the effects of multipath could never be entirely eliminated. And after a few years of work in "the laboratory" the lead scientist on his "team" was actually successful with inventing that algorithm (and yes, he is still around but not working in the HD/IBOC industry). Of course, the cartel (sorry I mean iBiquity), in its infinite wisdom and greed, decided not to partner up with this technology or utilize its chipset, but rather, developed their own technology and chipset with some of the stolen ideas from its competitors and then got the seed financing it needed to buy them out even though the technology of its competitors was actually superior.

No, I do not have a financial interest in the cartel (sorry I mean iBiquity)'s competitors.

Fun stuff, eh? None of this "public knowledge", but hopefully someday, it will be. :)

Oh yes, and just how exactly is HD/IBOC "multipath resistant"? Well, it guesses! That's right! The decoder in your deaf consumer radio recepting device constantly analyzes the bit stream and if in its best guesstimation it finds that some bits are missing (due to having gotten blasted by something like multipath) then it extrapolates what they should have been and based on its calculations it actually regenerates them. That, in and of itself, is an incredible piece of science! Of course, when too many bits go missing at one time and the limits of its corrective calculations are reached then it gives up and blends "back to analog". I wonder if that is anything like "back to the future"?

Now here's the caveat: This is how the ORIGINAL technology worked to which I referred above that probably should have become what HD/IBOC is today. I don't actually know whether or not the cartel (sorry I mean iBiquty)'s technology does the same thing, but I have no doubt that it sure does try awfully hard. And as to whether the cartel (sorry I mean iBiquity) implemented it correctly, it's anyone's guess, but current engineering studies seem to say that it was not implemented correctly, particularly on the AM broadcast band. Just ask some of the lower power AM stations that are on 30 KHz. adjacent channels to a big market with big guns who have turned on IBOC and see how happy they are about having their sidebands interfered with in their primary coverage areas.

We haven't heard the last of it. There are legal troubles coming.
 
Whatever happens to the signal, IBOC definately offers some improvement to the listener. When first comparing FM in the analog and digital mode, the difference appears neglegible. However, you get used to not hearing pops and picketfencing and actually suffer from listening fatigue when going back to analog.
 
Len14043 said:
Whatever happens to the signal, IBOC definately offers some improvement to the listener. When first comparing FM in the analog and digital mode, the difference appears neglegible. However, you get used to not hearing pops and picketfencing and actually suffer from listening fatigue when going back to analog.
The HD Radio system is full of incompatibilities.
Why not use FMeXtra www.dreinc.com and get the benefits of digital without all the defects and destructiveness of HD Radio. FMeXtra does not trespass on your neighbors' signals and is fully compatible with current station assignments. Since decoding FMeXtra is simple and not proprietary, radio's become much less expensive, and even portable-pocket sized. FMeXtra does not require all that power hungry, proprietary hardware.
 
Len14043 said:
Whatever happens to the signal, IBOC definately offers some improvement to the listener. When first comparing FM in the analog and digital mode, the difference appears neglegible. However, you get used to not hearing pops and picketfencing and actually suffer from listening fatigue when going back to analog.

With only 60% the coverage of analog, IBOC drops back into analog with a delay, when the IBOC signal goes out of range - I hardly consider that an improvement. Many people, including myself, see no improvement in FM mode, and definately could hear the digital IBOC artifacts - just like with Satellite Radio and cell phones, digital sounds worse. I did not get a chance to hear AM, but with mostly talk shows, who cares if it sounds "better". The point being, terrestrial radio needs to vastly improve its programming content, which IBOC supporters don't seem to understand, or don't want to admit, because IBOC's purpose is solely for corporate financial gain. Analog FM is always clear with no pops, or picketfencing, but improvments with IBOC AM, one alienates almost half of the listener audience, with IBOC's poor coverage and signal penetration.
 
[/quote]
The HD Radio system is full of incompatibilities.
Why not use FMeXtra www.dreinc.com and get the benefits of digital without all the defects and destructiveness of HD Radio. FMeXtra does not trespass on your neighbors' signals and is fully compatible with current station assignments. Since decoding FMeXtra is simple and not proprietary, radio's become much less expensive, and even portable-pocket sized. FMeXtra does not require all that power hungry, proprietary hardware.
[/quote]


There may be systems that are more compatible. But the FCC, in its infinate wisdom, gave the green light to IBOC. That is the system we have to live with. As I stated before, I don't like the hybrid mode, but IBOC is the only system which gives us a roadmap to an all digital system.
 
"There may be systems that are more compatible. But the FCC, in its infinate wisdom, gave the green light to IBOC. That is the system we have to live with. As I stated before, I don't like the hybrid mode, but IBOC is the only system which gives us a roadmap to an all digital system."

I don't see the point of going digital anyway, since the broadcast bands aren't "broken". There are too many negative issues with IBOC/digital - just because TV is going digital, doesn't mean that terrestrial radio has to go digital. Especially, with this report on portable IBOC receivers being a few years away, depending on power supply improvements, IBOC is bound to fail. Friday, I was in Best Buy and still no HD radios of any kind - plenty of Satellite radios, including automobile units and the new, way-cool Stiletto, and radio-enabled cell phones. The BIG HD Radio rollout has been a complete joke and a failure.
 

The HD Radio system is full of incompatibilities.
Why not use FMeXtra www.dreinc.com and get the benefits of digital without all the defects and destructiveness of HD Radio. FMeXtra does not trespass on your neighbors' signals and is fully compatible with current station assignments. Since decoding FMeXtra is simple and not proprietary, radio's become much less expensive, and even portable-pocket sized. FMeXtra does not require all that power hungry, proprietary hardware.
[/quote]


There may be systems that are more compatible. But the FCC, in its infinate wisdom, gave the green light to IBOC. That is the system we have to live with. As I stated before, I don't like the hybrid mode, but IBOC is the only system which gives us a roadmap to an all digital system.[/quote]
Not true. Other all digital broadcasting systems are already in use and approved all over the rest of the world. DRM for example. http://www.drm.org/
The FM eXtra subcarrier is already all digital. www.dreinc.com
 
SUPERCASTER said:
There may be systems that are more compatible. But the FCC, in its infinate wisdom, gave the green light to IBOC. That is the system we have to live with. As I stated before, I don't like the hybrid mode, but IBOC is the only system which gives us a roadmap to an all digital system.
Not true. Other all digital broadcasting systems are already in use and approved all over the rest of the world. DRM for example. http://www.drm.org/
The FM eXtra subcarrier is already all digital. www.dreinc.com
[/quote]

DRM is not backwardly compatible from what I have seen. In other words, if a station uses DRM, then it loses all possibility of analog reception. Nobody in the US would eve consider this.

The eXtra system is not a single chip solution that includes AM as well.

The reason HD was approved is that it works in both AM and FM and is backwards-compatible.
 
700WLW said:
I don't see the point of going digital anyway, since the broadcast bands aren't "broken".

AM is down to a 10% share of listening in 12-44. Broken? "Dead" is more like it.

And FM is off in younger demos and teens, indicating something has to be done to make radio technically more compatible in a digital era... analog is simply not a future alternative.
 
LEN14043 WROTE: "There may be systems that are more compatible. But the FCC, in its infinate wisdom, gave the green light to IBOC. That is the system we have to live with. As I stated before, I don't like the hybrid mode..."

OK, all of us need to take note of one very important point. The only reason HD Radio needs or needed FCC approval is because it BREAKS FCC RULES!!! The FCC said, temporarily, broadcasters are now allowed to violate FCC inteference rules if they choose to fire up AM or FM HD Radio exciters.

Other systems such as FMeXtra (FM) and Cam-D (AM) work within FCC rules and regulations. That's why the FCC will never change the rules to approve these systems. THEY DON"T NEED ANY FCC APPROVAL!

The uBiquitous people would love to have you believe that the FCC has given a nod in favor of HD Radio to the exclusion of compatible systems. That is far from the case.

 
 
OldGringo said:
SUPERCASTER said:
There may be systems that are more compatible. But the FCC, in its infinate wisdom, gave the green light to IBOC. That is the system we have to live with. As I stated before, I don't like the hybrid mode, but IBOC is the only system which gives us a roadmap to an all digital system.
Not true. Other all digital broadcasting systems are already in use and approved all over the rest of the world. DRM for example. http://www.drm.org/
The FM eXtra subcarrier is already all digital. www.dreinc.com

DRM is not backwardly compatible from what I have seen. In other words, if a station uses DRM, then it loses all possibility of analog reception. Nobody in the US would eve consider this.

The eXtra system is not a single chip solution that includes AM as well.

The reason HD was approved is that it works in both AM and FM and is backwards-compatible.
[/quote]

DRM is not backwardly compatible from what I have seen.

Neither is HD Radio hybrid compatible with current FCC station assignments, especially on AM at night.
HD Radio is adjacent channel, not In Band On Channel.

if a station uses DRM, then it loses all possibility of analog reception. Nobody in the US would eve consider this.
Yes, at present DRM is an all digital system, not a hybrid, so it is for use when the all digital conversion takes place in the future.
So why did you say:
IBOC is the only system which gives us a roadmap to an all digital system.
Not true. The FM eXtra subcarrier is fully digital now, for transmission just requires an encoder, and uses existing FM transmission equipment. The main analog audio on the FM can eventually be dropped when full digital audio is eventually desired, and the bandwidth used for more fully digital FM eXtra subcarriers, or higher bitrate multichannel audio.

The eXtra system is not a single chip solution that includes AM as well.
If HD Radio is a single chip solution then why does it cost so much and consume so much power?
The HD Radio AM specs and implimentation are not the same as for FM.

All these digital transmission technologies (including iBiquity) license the same AAC Pus Codec from: http://www.codingtechnologies.com/partners/index.htm
 
SUPERCASTER said:
Neither is HD Radio hybrid compatible with current FCC station assignments, especially on AM at night.
HD Radio is adjacent channel, not In Band On Channel.

Nobody listens to adjacent channel stations under the shadow of a primary local. There is no loss

Yes, at present DRM is an all digital system, not a hybrid, so it is for use when the all digital conversion takes place in the future.

So there is no tranistion and backwards compatibility. It won't work.

So why did you say:
IBOC is the only system which gives us a roadmap to an all digital system.

Because it is analog compatible, and does not obsolete all analog radios. It adds digital, rather than substituting digital for analog as in DRM.

Not true. The FM eXtra subcarrier is fully digital now, for transmission just requires an encoder, and uses existing FM transmission equipment. The main analog audio on the FM can eventually be dropped when full digital audio is eventually desired, and the bandwidth used for more fully digital FM eXtra subcarriers, or higher bitrate multichannel audio.

That day is a decade away. For the moment, this is going to be a long term transition, like FM stereo was.

The eXtra system is not a single chip solution that includes AM as well.

If HD Radio is a single chip solution then why does it cost so much and consume so much power?

The only way manufacturers will keep putting AM on radios and add digital AM is if ther eis one chip and one license. With the small amount of listening to AM today, they really would like to totally eliminate AM from all radios, like the new Microsoft MP3 player which has no AM but does have FM.

The HD Radio AM specs and implimentation are not the same as for FM.

They are on a single chip. Without a single chip solution, AM is dead.
 
OldGringo said:
700WLW said:
I don't see the point of going digital anyway, since the broadcast bands aren't "broken".

AM is down to a 10% share of listening in 12-44. Broken? "Dead" is more like it.

And FM is off in younger demos and teens, indicating something has to be done to make radio technically more compatible in a digital era... analog is simply not a future alternative.

So, what does AM IBOC buy us - no one listens to AM anymore. IBOC allows more channels of the same terrestrial garbage, but at the expense of 60% of the listener audience. The broadcast bands are listened to as a convenience - for real entertainment people are listening to Satellite Radio, Internet Radio while surfing the Internet, cell phone radio/streams, iPods, CDs, etc... Nothing is going to "fix" the broadcast bands, especially AM - better programming would help, but IBOC supporters don't want to acknowledge this, or simply can't comprehend this simplier solution.
 
OldGringo said:
Nobody listens to adjacent channel stations under the shadow of a primary local. There is no loss

So I'm 'nobody'? IBOC supporters who make statements like "sacrifices need to be made" are just making excuses for why their incompatible, flawed and destructive system should be allowed to operate. They justify this by making claims that all listening occurs in areas local to stations, and therefore fringe and secondary coverage area listeners aren't being lost. Then you'll hear them go on about how IBOC is so wonderful because it eliminates the pops, hisses, and static associated with analog.

Now let's just assume for the moment that the first claim (local listening only) is true. Then why is the second statement (eliminating pops, hisses, and static) even an issue? If listening occurs only in LOCAL areas, we're dealing with STRONG analog signals, which sound pretty darn good and are mostly static-free. Static isn't a problem until you get into the fringe and secondary coverages.

Now let's change direction and assume that the first claim is NOT true. Digital broadcasting could, in theory, clean up some of those weak signals. Only problem is IBOC causes so much destructive interference that it would prevent anyone from listening in these areas in the first place, hence the reason IBOC supporters keep standing behind the first claim.

So whether your claims about local listening are correct or not, IBOC offers zero benefit.

Digital signals have another problem. Note that I said it would be nice IN THEORY to clean up those weak signals. Unlike analog, which will fade out and gives plenty of warning when it does, digital signals will cut out without warning, a much hated occurrence to anyone who's ever used a cellphone. There were some studies done that involved delays on computers (they were varying how long after you hit a key it takes for the input to show up on the monitor). When the machine was 'busy', the delay could be in the one second or more range, while it could be instantaneous when the machine was not busy. Now obviously the best you can do, on average, is to have the machine respond as quickly as possible given its current conditions. But what they found was that people preferred consistent delay, even if that meant slowing down the response time when the machine was not 'busy', rather than unpredictable delays. I think the same is true for radio, people would be very annoyed by having their stations drop out suddenly and unpredictably because they drove into a grove of trees. Note that this is different from the situation from HDTV because in TV most of the time the receivers and antennas don't move

Because it is analog compatible, and does not obsolete all analog radios. It adds digital, rather than substituting digital for analog as in DRM.

It is not analog compatible. A compatible system would not be so destructive by violating the interference rules, especially on AM. On FM you can use, to some extent, the built-in guard bands but the iBiquity system does it poorly. On AM, the only solution is to not do hybrid mode AT ALL, due to overlapping channels with no guard bands to speak of, there is simply no space. It must be done on all stations at once, by operators flipping a switch, on a day that there are enough digital receivers out there, if that day ever comes.

The only way manufacturers will keep putting AM on radios and add digital AM is if ther eis one chip and one license. With the small amount of listening to AM today, they really would like to totally eliminate AM from all radios, like the new Microsoft MP3 player which has no AM but does have FM.

Sure, just have a single chip that can do hybrid/full digital FM and full analog/full digital AM. At some point in the future, convert both bands to full digital overnight. Just ditch the destructive iBiquity system. There are plenty of other ways to implement this that won't cause destructive interference. Particular attention needs to be paid to the full digital AM side so that skywave fadeouts don't become 30-60 second signal dropouts. You want to design the modulation so that in the presence of a weaker signal, the receiver can "fall back" to a lower bitrate (but still listenable) signal by making approximations. I'm sure you can do something like separate the most significant bits in symbols most distant from each other in the constellation diagram, so that when you get noise that makes the different points difficult to discern you can throw away only the least significant bits (and use the receiver to approximate them).
 
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