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Did anyone go off air last night?

The answer for most of these is a combination of Canada and other short-spacings within the US.

KXXO is a good one to use as an example, since there's a fairly recent allocation study readily available:


The 37 kW operation, while less than class maximum, is as much as KXXO can run while protecting the first-adjacent 96.3 in the Portland market (the current KXXO facility was actually applied for in tandem with that particular move-in, IIRC). There's also a short-spacing under the 73.215 rules to KJR-FM on 95.7, and the required protections to the 96.1 in Vancouver, CHKG.

None of this is at all uncommon these days in crowded corridors. Almost everything in the northeast is part of at least some sort of 73.215 short-spacing.
 
And you know all these stations are running under their licensed ERP how?

Sorry Bob, you'll have to go back to a previous thread for the Cougar-Tiger explanation. I've already answered that question at least
And you know all these stations are running under their licensed ERP how?

Sorry Bob, you'll have to go back to a previous thread for the Cougar-Tiger explanation. I've already answered that question at least three times on this board.
I understand there was a moritorium on Cougar, but the question was about certain Seattle stations being there. I did find your answer about 92.5, 94.1, and 107.7 all being on a short tower and wanting to upgrade, and 100.7 being on the KIRO-TV tower, but that doesn't explain 96.5, 98.9, or 99.9. Wasn't 96.5 on Cougar at one point? I had thought that new stations could be constructed again by the time they moved.
 
The answer for most of these is a combination of Canada and other short-spacings within the US.

KXXO is a good one to use as an example, since there's a fairly recent allocation study readily available:


The 37 kW operation, while less than class maximum, is as much as KXXO can run while protecting the first-adjacent 96.3 in the Portland market (the current KXXO facility was actually applied for in tandem with that particular move-in, IIRC). There's also a short-spacing under the 73.215 rules to KJR-FM on 95.7, and the required protections to the 96.1 in Vancouver, CHKG.

None of this is at all uncommon these days in crowded corridors. Almost everything in the northeast is part of at least some sort of 73.215 short-spacing.
I'll have to look at that when I have the time. As I remember it though, KXXO actually applied to make the original move to South Mountain in 2008, and actually had a CP for that granted but never built. I thought that a permit wouldn't be granted unless both the U.S. and Canada approved it?
 
I'll have to look at that when I have the time. As I remember it though, KXXO actually applied to make the original move to South Mountain in 2008, and actually had a CP for that granted but never built. I thought that a permit wouldn't be granted unless both the U.S. and Canada approved it?
You remember correctly - there was an application filed in January 2007 for 65 kW/717m from South Mountain, and it was apparently granted, but then cancelled in August 2008.

There would absolutely have been coordination with Canada - CHKG went on in 1997, and the allocation had already existed before that, requiring protection. As a result, the 2007 application for KXXO was severely directional, putting just 3265 watts due north toward Canada.

I don't know why it wasn't built; I suspect there wasn't a compelling business case to relocate to a site that would lose coverage south of Centralia and east of I-5 in exchange for marginally better (but still fringy) Seattle coverage and out over the Olympic Peninsula. And then at some point the deal came around to coordinate with the 96.3 Portland move-in and get the current Capitol Peak facility instead. Even if the raw ERP is lower, it's in many ways a better site than South Mountain would have been - it retains most of the population coverage KXXO had from its previous site, while putting more signal over Olympia and Tacoma. The game isn't just about raw power, after all - it's about where that power is concentrated and where your target audience actually is, and in many cases about the business negotiations with other stations trying to do move-ins back when that was a going thing.
 
The answer for most of these is a combination of Canada and other short-spacings within the US.

KXXO is a good one to use as an example, since there's a fairly recent allocation study readily available:


The 37 kW operation, while less than class maximum, is as much as KXXO can run while protecting the first-adjacent 96.3 in the Portland market (the current KXXO facility was actually applied for in tandem with that particular move-in, IIRC). There's also a short-spacing under the 73.215 rules to KJR-FM on 95.7, and the required protections to the 96.1 in Vancouver, CHKG.

None of this is at all uncommon these days in crowded corridors. Almost everything in the northeast is part of at least some sort of 73.215 short-spacing.
That was a fascinating document to look through. Thank you for sharing that! What you said is absolutely true: power is used more effectively where the dollars count. In the KXXO example, Capitol Peak is an excellent option.
 
No Nulls to the north on those FM's on WTM, try again. You guys can pretend to be a Music Directors or Program managers, but fail at trying to pretend your engineers. Some may be Directional and have Nulls, just non towards Canada.

And I'm talking WTM only.
 
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Bob, 96.5 was on Cougar, but moved to WTM. The reason for the original move, was 96.5 was on it's own tower located on the West side of the Cougar slightly down the hillside. As with other stations, the King County moratorium around that time prevented them from increasing their tower height to even match other Cougar stations.
 
I never said they were running below their licensed ERP, I said they were licensed for below the maximum ERP for their licensed class. If any of them are currently running at below licensed ERP, I have no idea.
Then you're over-generalizing what their maximum ERP for the class of license is. For example, the WTM-2 stations use a combined panel antenna that has little to no field strength to the East of WTM. The reason is simple; why put power to the East of WTM when that area is out of the Seattle-Tacoma market? The field strength to the North, West, and South from WTM covers the market just fine. As Scott pointed out; you calculate power in those main lobes along with height to maximize coverage over the market/city of license, while keeping clear of either Canadian, or co-adjacent channel overlaps. Your assumption is these stations are all running non-directional patterns and standard heights. Especially in mountainous areas, that's rarely the case.
 
Then you're over-generalizing what their maximum ERP for the class of license is. For example, the WTM-2 stations use a combined panel antenna that has little to no field strength to the East of WTM. The reason is simple; why put power to the East of WTM when that area is out of the Seattle-Tacoma market? The field strength to the North, West, and South from WTM covers the market just fine. As Scott pointed out; you calculate power in those main lobes along with height to maximize coverage over the market/city of license, while keeping clear of either Canadian, or co-adjacent channel overlaps. Your assumption is these stations are all running non-directional patterns and standard heights. Especially in mountainous areas, that's rarely the case.
In defense of the original poster, he did correctly adjust for what the equivalent maximum-for-class ERP would be at the heights for WTM, Capitol and the other sites. The FCC's FMPower calculator is readily available, and it does tell us that a full class C at 729m AAT would round to 63 kW, while KIRO-FM, for instance, is 52 kW.

It's also quite true, as Kelly well knows, that good consultants can make use of a variety of tricks of the trade to adjust the way HAAT is calculated in rough-terrain areas. You can use several different methodologies and tweak the number of radials that are used. For many years, the FCC had a policy called the "Denver waiver" that allowed some radials to be ignored; it got its name from the stations on the brow of the Front Range overlooking Denver, where the city and nearly all the market population are several thousand feet down below to the east, while the Rockies keep climbing for several thousand feet more to the west. "Averaging" the terrain in that case would present a misleading picture of how the transmitter site relates to where the listeners are.

The reality these days is twofold: first, that the FM spectrum has been jammed beyond full, and second, that there are now 70+ years of allocations and policy history that all play into the power levels that stations can use in the real world. The history of the short-spacing rules in 73.213 and 73.215 alone could (and often does) keep a good consultant busy for days. Those sections almost always have more real-world impact on what stations can do in crowded coastal areas than the "basic" spacing rules in 73.207 do.

And that's before even beginning to take Canada into account, and all the ways the treaties have changed over the years. Start reading about the allocations history of KING-FM with respect to 98.1 in Princeton BC and 98.3 in Chilliwack and your head begins to spin (unless you're the consultant or lawyer who gets the billable hours to figure it out, in which case your car payment gets made for the next few months...)


KING-FM is one of those stations using a directional antenna at WTM2. In its case, it's not for any sort of ERP-boosting trick - with 68 kW/707m it's already at class C maximum up there. It has no short-spacings toward any US station, though it's been jammed in nice and tight at its edges by 98.3 in Rainier and the 98.1 down in Seaside OR. It uses a directional antenna only because it doesn't need to send full power out of the market to the east. Right now, it could go non-directional if it wanted to take on the expense; at some point in the future, it could potentially get boxed in if another station were to assert 73.215 short-spacing against its licensed DA facility. That's a calculated risk.

Here's another one up there: KISW did need to use the directional antenna to manage two short-spacings that would prohibit it from going omnidirectional as a full C on 99.9 at WTM.


Turns out there is some DA protection to Canada up there, just not directly north or northwest: the signal that has to be protected by that little pull-in around 20 degrees on the DA pattern keeps KISW's signal from interfering with 99.9 at Oliver BC, and the deeper pull-in around 100-110 degrees protects 99.7 in Yakima.
 
Great insight Mr. Fybush.

That's right. By US-Canada treaty in general Canadian stations over landmass are protected down to their 54 dbU (50,50) contour (no the typical US 60dbU) . That means a co-channel US station can't throw more than 34db (50,10) interference contour when it hits Canadian soil. The bilateral treaty does allow US stations to push antenna nulll patterns down to -20db to prevent cross-border interference versus the -15dB max drop for US-to-US cases. Over water it's fair game but once the US signal hits a Canadian land mass that's when the computations begin to work their controls.

It's that -34dB (50,10) interference contour rule that forces the US stations not to run max ERP, especially in the dial-crowded Seattle-Vancouver-Victoria triangle. (For KOHO I don't see that being the case but I have yet to dig deeper.)

The other major US-to-US: "pattern nulling" rule that conceivably can be tossed out is the "Minus-2dB-Per-10-Degree-Drop Rule" if it is to only protect cross-border-splatter. Nearly all near-border US stations still stick to the US-to-US more restrictive rule. The only station I could find that actually legally uses this exemption is WVMV in China Township, Michigan, which drops as much as -4dB per 10 degrees. ( Smile FM's original petition to do this was rejected by the FCC but was later accepted.)

****Question*** (Somewhat off-thread) : Does anyone out there know of any other than WVMV breaking the -2db rule ??
 
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No Nulls to the north on those FM's on WTM, try again. You guys can pretend to be a Music Directors or Program managers, but fail at trying to pretend your engineers. Some may be Directional and have Nulls, just non towards Canada.

And I'm talking WTM only.
If you're referring to my comment. You're right, that was highly inaccurate. Bob had asked about KAFE and KXXO, and I was only trying to refer directly to those stations in my response. According to the FCC database, KAFE is heavily directional to protect adjacent CHLG. Additionally, KXXO is also directional in the south sound, not sending as much power to the north with CHKG knocking on the door. Sorry for the misunderstanding.
 
In defense of the original poster, he did correctly adjust for what the equivalent maximum-for-class ERP would be at the heights for WTM, Capitol and the other sites. The FCC's FMPower calculator is readily available, and it does tell us that a full class C at 729m AAT would round to 63 kW, while KIRO-FM, for instance, is 52 kW.

It's also quite true, as Kelly well knows, that good consultants can make use of a variety of tricks of the trade to adjust the way HAAT is calculated in rough-terrain areas. You can use several different methodologies and tweak the number of radials that are used. For many years, the FCC had a policy called the "Denver waiver" that allowed some radials to be ignored; it got its name from the stations on the brow of the Front Range overlooking Denver, where the city and nearly all the market population are several thousand feet down below to the east, while the Rockies keep climbing for several thousand feet more to the west. "Averaging" the terrain in that case would present a misleading picture of how the transmitter site relates to where the listeners are.

The reality these days is twofold: first, that the FM spectrum has been jammed beyond full, and second, that there are now 70+ years of allocations and policy history that all play into the power levels that stations can use in the real world. The history of the short-spacing rules in 73.213 and 73.215 alone could (and often does) keep a good consultant busy for days. Those sections almost always have more real-world impact on what stations can do in crowded coastal areas than the "basic" spacing rules in 73.207 do.

And that's before even beginning to take Canada into account, and all the ways the treaties have changed over the years. Start reading about the allocations history of KING-FM with respect to 98.1 in Princeton BC and 98.3 in Chilliwack and your head begins to spin (unless you're the consultant or lawyer who gets the billable hours to figure it out, in which case your car payment gets made for the next few months...)


KING-FM is one of those stations using a directional antenna at WTM2. In its case, it's not for any sort of ERP-boosting trick - with 68 kW/707m it's already at class C maximum up there. It has no short-spacings toward any US station, though it's been jammed in nice and tight at its edges by 98.3 in Rainier and the 98.1 down in Seaside OR. It uses a directional antenna only because it doesn't need to send full power out of the market to the east. Right now, it could go non-directional if it wanted to take on the expense; at some point in the future, it could potentially get boxed in if another station were to assert 73.215 short-spacing against its licensed DA facility. That's a calculated risk.

Here's another one up there: KISW did need to use the directional antenna to manage two short-spacings that would prohibit it from going omnidirectional as a full C on 99.9 at WTM.


Turns out there is some DA protection to Canada up there, just not directly north or northwest: the signal that has to be protected by that little pull-in around 20 degrees on the DA pattern keeps KISW's signal from interfering with 99.9 at Oliver BC, and the deeper pull-in around 100-110 degrees protects 99.7 in Yakima.
Slight correction, the 98.1 in Seaside moved to 96.5 in 2012, I'm assuming that had to do with shortspacing to 97.9 when it moved from Eugene to Portland.
 
98.1 KCYS mixed with KING last time I was in Pacific Beach, around late July 2011. Someday I will make the return to that sleepy town and its gorgeous beach. The cabin our family stayed at was sold to a new owner and is up on Vrbo for rentals now! I'm guessing KCYS and KJAQ battle out 96.5 now in that area. Pacific Beach is a great spot for FM because the Lincoln City path is over 99.9% water, so KCRF-96.7 and KPPT-100.7 are in like locals. I don't know if KYTE can make it in anymore since they moved inland, but their old stick made it through.

This thread has talked about old mountaintop FM sites, so I wanted to mention something. A few weeks ago, KPQ-FM Wenatchee was not operating for about two days due to technical issues. Just dead air. Is that road to the xmitter easily accessible, being that it's right near the Mission Ridge ski area? I can see what I think is the tower from Ellensburg if I'm away from town and it's clear.
Meanwhile, KXLE-FM here in Ellensburg maintains an aux transmitter at the AM site. I know this because there were several months last winter/spring where KXLE's main Lookout Mountain tower was off. I assume power went out on the tower one day and it was too snowy/steep on the dirt road to the xmitter. That, and the effects of the initial stay-home orders in March/April for Covid-19. Around late May they were able to turn the 51kw transmitter back on. The auxiliary transmitter only covers Ellensburg, Kittitas and Thorp relatively well. Cle Elum is extremely hit and miss and forget it in Ronald/Roslyn.
 
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