Difference in signal strength from 540 to 1700

[vchimpanzee]

I've been meaning to start this topic for some time. I don't think I ever did.

Years ago, I read that a certain station was approved, or trying to get approved, for one of the frequencies above 1600, which guarantees a 10,000-watt signal during the day and 1,000 watts at night, non-directional. I do know 10,000 watts isn't as strong on that end of the dial as it would be on 540.

A new topic I saw for the first time today said that station has been approved for or at least applied for 540 AM at 5000 watts (probably stronger during the day) and something like 200 watts directional, which wouldn't be that good at night. Or maybe it would.

What is the difference between a signal on 540 and one on 1600 or 1700? I know I can pick up one station at 550 pretty well 50 miles away even though it is 500 watts.

On the other hand, I went to that site where you can see signal ranges and was amazed at one station that is 1550 and 10,000 watts. It doesn't look like it reaches very far at all.

 

[BIGSTICK]

I have always heard this, but I beg to differ a little. Here in Atlanta, I can pick up 1510 Nashville during the day especially in the winter, have also picked up 1530 Cincinnati clear as a bell with some fade out, on the other hand at the same time 700 WLW is no where at the same time, although 650 Nash comes in fairly well during the day where I live, But the upper dial seems much more active during the day in the winter months.

 

[vibe]

I agree w/ Brent's assessment particuarly with the 1500-1600 band coming in extremely well at nite, particularly in winter. The X band 1620-1700 seems to get out real well in the 2 hours or so before sunset.
But you can't beat those low frequencies for long distance during the day.

 

[KR4BD]

In a "dream world", if someone were offering me a gift of one of the following radio stations....

A. A 50 KW Non-Directional Station on 1700
B. A 1 KW Non-Directional Station on 540

I would pick B.

The lower frequency stations get out like gangbusters during the day with relatively low power compared to much higher powered stations at the higher end of the dial.

From over 50 years of AM Band DXing, I have found it is true, however, that the higher frequency stations do "skip" better at night.

 

[BIGSTICK]

I agree w/ Brent's assessment particuarly with the 1500-1600 band coming in extremely well at nite, particularly in winter. The X band 1620-1700 seems to get out real well in the 2 hours or so before sunset.
But you can't beat those low frequencies for long distance during the day.

I was recently in Moline, IL and picked up 550 WDUN from Gainesville, Ga very clear at 3pm local time, 750 Atlanta, 1670 in Macon which is Spanish which was amazingly clear as well as 1690 in Atlanta. I live in Atlanta, so I was really just dxing those at the time.

 

[Raider57]

here in NJ, Ijust picked up WMFG 1240, which is in Hibbing, Minnesota! I think thats my furthest AM catch so far in the nighttime the 2nd furthest Ive gotten was KMOX in St.Louis,MO

 

[trusty]

In a "dream world", if someone were offering me a gift of one of the following radio stations....

A. A 50 KW Non-Directional Station on 1700
B. A 1 KW Non-Directional Station on 540

I would pick B.

The lower frequency stations get out like gangbusters during the day with relatively low power compared to much higher powered stations at the higher end of the dial.

From over 50 years of AM Band DXing, I have found it is true, however, that the higher frequency stations do "skip" better at night.

Almost 20 years ago, KLIF in Dallas jumped at the chance to move from 1190 (50kw-D) to 570 (5kw-D) and has never looked back.

The lower frequencies are great for groundwave and carry the signal further. The higher freqs & extended band are right up there near shortwave and are more suited for skywave. Sites like radio-locator show only groundwave coverage.

 

[Cincinnati Kid]

With regards to this topic, WCKY - 1530-AM, a 50,000 watt station here is well known for its power at night for decades. However, that station can also be heard during the day some 150 miles away. It may not have the booming daytime reception as WLW - 700-AM, but it can be heard. Even during daylight hours, 50,000 watts can do well in that part of the AM dial.

Just another observation, florescent light interference has always caused problems with AM reception in buildings. I have noticed that the interference from that source is less on the higher parts of the band as compared with the lower end.

 

[KR4BD]

The "problem" with WSAI-1530, just 60 miles away from their transmitter in Northern KY is the fact that their sky and ground wave signals "mix" during the daytime (especially in the winter season) causing very distorted reception at relatively "short" distances. I live in Lexington, KY and have also have lived in Englewood, OH (NW of Dayton) and can attest to this problem with 1530's signal. WLW-700 and WKRC-550 are both "rock solid" at 60-75 miles North and South of Cincinnati during the day. Now, I will grant you, WSAI has a great skywave signal at night in the SE and Eastern areas of the U.S. where their main pattern favors.

Another good example that affirms what I have observed:

Right now (11 AM Saturday morning), I am listening to WSM-650 out of Nashville, TN. They are delivering a rock solid signal...no distortion, no fading. WLAC-1510, on the other hand, from the same city also with 50,000 watts Non-Directional Daytime is very weak with severe fading, distortion and with other weak stations on 1510 mixing in with it. Yes, ocassionally, it will rise up out of the noise when the skywave dominates the ground wave (fading), but it is not "listenable" at my location during the day.

 

[gar hi]

What I'm wondering is why 880 WCBS comes in stronger than the other 50kw stations from New York down here in Tampa. There are times when I can hardly hear anything from WFAN or WABC but WCBS will still be strong enough to understand.

 

[vibe]

I've noticed the same about 75 mi S of you. perhaps there are more foreign stations on 660,710,770 etc than on 880.

 

[davideduardo]

In a "dream world", if someone were offering me a gift of one of the following radio stations....

A. A 50 KW Non-Directional Station on 1700
B. A 1 KW Non-Directional Station on 540

It's a fact that, given the same transmitter location and ground conductivity and a radiator of comparable electrical length, 1 kw on 550 will outcover a 50 kw station on 1600.

The skywave on 1600 will be better, but there is essentially no measurable skywave listening anywhere in the US any more, and most radio advertisers buy daytime hours, not nights.

 

[rbrucecarter5]

A. A 50 KW Non-Directional Station on 1700
B. A 1 KW Non-Directional Station on 540

Absolutely true - 540 would be better. In fact, I tested these frequencies during the day with loop antennas. There is a 10 kW 1700 and a 500W 540 in the Dallas Ft. Worth area. I was testing in Lubbock, TX, over 300 miles away. 540 was easily receivable, not a trace of 1700. It took a huge loop to get 1700 in, but by that time 540 was sounding like a local with the same loop. Low band stations are incredible - I've heard 5 kW regionals close to 500 miles away. Here in Dallas, the high band 50 kW most interesting for DX is KOKC - at 170 miles from me it almost sounds like a local, but is subject to daytime skywave / groundwave cancellation. About 2 hours after sunrise / 2 hours before sunset - a lot of high band stuff from 1500 to 1700 is coming in via skywave. There is a 1560 in Houston that sounds like a local mornings / late afternoons, but is totally unreceivable at mid day. I heard the same phenomenon in Lubbock - I found a small group of Radio Disney fanatics that had it down to a science - low band KMKI during the day - high band 1690 from Denver early morning / late afternoon booming in all over town, sometimes 1160 from San Antonio during the day, which I thought was very unusual.

Houston is another good location to test low band vs. high band. Dallas 570, 660, 820 are strong as locals, 770 present but weak. KRLD 1080 is very weak - even when local 1070 is nulled out. No trace of Dallas 1160, 1190, regionals on 1270, etc. Skywave brings in a 1540 and a 1700 mornings and afternoons.

Mid band KCTA 1030 is absolutely fascinating - it bucks the trend and has a huge daytime footprint, as much as 400 miles in every direction. Just like a local in Houston.

 

[gar hi]

I've noticed the same about 75 mi S of you. perhaps there are more foreign stations on 660,710,770 etc than on 880.

You mentioned 710. Are you able to get WOR? I've never heard that down here. I assumed it was because they are directional and they don't want to conflict with the station in Miami.

Another thing to note about the foreign Spanish stations is that they're still strong well north of Florida. The last time I was visiting New Jersey and driving down interstate 295 outside Philly at night, the Spanish speaking station on 880 as coming in just as strong as WCBS while WFAN and WABC were OK.

 

[fybush]

You mentioned 710. Are you able to get WOR? I've never heard that down here. I assumed it was because they are directional and they don't want to conflict with the station in Miami.

WOR is much older than the Miami station. Miami protects WOR, not the other way around.

Cuba, on the other hand, doesn't protect much of anyone, and it wipes out WOR (and WAQI, and many others) over much of the south.

 

[kudzooter]

I'm living right on Bull Shoals Lake on the Ark/Mo border. Using the stock radio on my late Mom's '93 Beretta, I've been picking up a lot of top-end stations at much earlier times than I'd have expected. With a fairly heavy cloud cover, have heard 1690 WVON Chicago, 1670 WTDY MadisonWI, 1640 WTMI GulfportMS, 1620 WTAW College StationTX, 1700 KBGG Des MoinesIA also 1700 KKLF RichardsonTX, 1650 KCNZ Cedar Falls IA, 1630 KCJJ Iowa City IA, and 1620 WTNW PensacolaFL -- all as early as 3PM CST. One day in early November, totally sunny, heard WTDY and KCNZ as early as 12:30PM. Also, Dec 8th around 4PM, very cloudy, 1560 KGOW BelaireTX was coming in as loud and clear as a local -- and again about 8:45 the next morning, KGOW was still that loud.

When I can get away from power lines, my nighttime reception is pretty much a Who's Who of the clear channel 50 KWers in the south and midwest. But hearing the ones I've mentioned this early -- especially the lunch-hour things -- has been pretty amazing.

Saw eastern seaboard mentions of the WCBS footprint. The same afternoon and following morning I was doing so well with that Houston-area station, I was also getting a decent signal from 880 KRVN LexingtonNE.

 

[vibe]

Question from gar-post 6 "Are you able to get WOR?" Answer ; once or twice, after WCBS 880 NYC, the next strongest/frequent station I can get in Englwwood FL is 1030 WBZ, Beantown, then occasionally 660 WFAN NYC.
I forgot to menion that there was several times when the local 1530 in Englewood was off the air but replaced by a listenable 1530 from Cinci.

 

[charlestondxman]

Me too. I would much rather have the station at 540 than the one at 1700, as WFLF (my closest 540) basically covers most of Florida on that frequency.

In my area, a good example of this is with the big Jacksonville AM's. 550 WAYR and 600 WBWL, with 5kw, come in up and down the Carolina coast during the daytime, all the way to Charleston and Myrtle Beach.

1600 (the Catholic station), with the same 5kw, barely comes in, compared to a strong signal from WAYR.

Even farther up on the dial, there's a huge difference between frequencies. 560 in Columbia, WVOC (5kw), has a strong signal basically covering the entire state daytime, listenable in Charleston and Greenville, so they have been the big AM in the Midlands since they started in the 30's.

Their competitor at 1320 (with the same 5kw) has a daytime signal that is noisy 30 miles out, and their night signal has major trouble covering fast-growing Lexington County, and their ratings illustrate that (VOC with almost a 5 during summer, 1320 with a 1.5).

 

[crainbebo]

Me too. I would much rather have the station at 540 than the one at 1700, as WFLF (my closest 540) basically covers most of Florida on that frequency.

In my area, a good example of this is with the big Jacksonville AM's. 550 WAYR and 600 WBWL, with 5kw, come in up and down the Carolina coast during the daytime, all the way to Charleston and Myrtle Beach.

1600 (the Catholic station), with the same 5kw, barely comes in, compared to a strong signal from WAYR.

Even farther up on the dial, there's a huge difference between frequencies. 560 in Columbia, WVOC (5kw), has a strong signal basically covering the entire state daytime, listenable in Charleston and Greenville, so they have been the big AM in the Midlands since they started in the 30's.

Their competitor at 1320 (with the same 5kw) has a daytime signal that is noisy 30 miles out, and their night signal has major trouble covering fast-growing Lexington County, and their ratings illustrate that (VOC with almost a 5 during summer, 1320 with a 1.5).

Bull! I've heard KRND Fox Farm and KFOX Los Angeles on the X-Band at night, aithough very weak.

-crainbebo

 

[KR4BD]

ATTN: crainbebo

We're talking about daytime groundwave propation....not nighttime skywave. In daylight, Lower frequencies always perform better with LESS POWER than stations in the higher end of the dial using MORE POWER.