Digital Disaster: Seattle...We Have A Problem.....

[Bongwater]

To this day, there are pockets of areas all over the Puget Sound with no cable TV service. And others where even satellite is not an option (some apartment complexes, certain terrestrially challenged areas, etc.)

And in some of those areas, even analog TV may come in, albeit snowy or ghosty.

Not over the air DTV. It's all or nothing.

I did an experiment and found in certain areas of northwest Washington, the ONLY stations that comes in DTV is KVOS-DT and KBCB-DT. And seeing a possible Spanish flip for KVOS, what is that going to mean to non-Spanish speaking viewers? KBCB runs ShopNBC, an all shop at home network of NBC (All I can say is the owners of KBCB now have a GOLDEN opportunity to make new arrangements because they WILL need them come February 17.)

In fact, if any TV station has an advantage in turning off it's analog signal now and going straight to digital, it's KBCB. Nobody watches them anyway

The San Juans are the best if you wanna see over the air DTV. You can get pretty much everybody - even the few Canadian DTVs clearly. The channel selection is MUCH wider.

However, if you're WAAY out in Newhalem or Rockport. Forget everything but satellite (and even those tend to freeze up and pixilate badly out there.)

The one over the air Seattle area TV station that DID come in MOST areas was KCPQ-DT, their transmitter being on Gold Mountain, and having the advantage of near straight-shot coverage across the Puget Sound area.

So I womder if anybody in TV is thinking of new networks of local DTV translator stations to fill in the terrestrially challenged gaps of North Puget Sound and beyond before the February 17, 2009 switchover? Or making plans to temporarily "piggy back" their main signals on the backs of the DTV sub channels of KVOS and KBCB (which aren't in use now).....

Might save a lot of headaches that day....

While most polls say that only 10% aren't ready for the changeover, I can assure you (like every other pollster), they aren't necessarily reflecting the actual reality of it. I have visited a lot of people's house and while most are on cable, there are a LOT of people still using the trusty old analog TV (about 70%). Some are antenna only because they have had to make cutbacks (unemployment gap, gas prices, inflation - happening a lot these days.) And in most hilly areas and valleys - even with roof top antennas, over the air DTV signals just don't make it (think Sedro-Woolley, where even KVOS and KBCB is a mess in some areas.)

So, will there be any translator or DTV sub-channels from Bellingham compensations in spotty areas? I really hope so (they should have been planning for them a LONG time ago. But I thought I'd warn the reassured.....)

 

[IndigoCoyote]

Well, Lar, the tech folks like Kelly on this board probably know better, but my understanding is that translators and LPTVs are not on the docket to go digital at the switchover, so there may be a space for an analog solution via translators. But in NW WA and SW WA for that matter, I don't think the hardware is in place.

I was laughing about all the FCC and NAB announcements about the changeover, when I personally know of 6 families that will be SOL after next February. They cannot get satellite (trees) or cable (on an island.) Analog signal is there, but somewhat ghostly. I fear that DTV will not get to them at all...and DTV is an all or nothing proposition.

I realize analog tv is a spectrum hogger, and this is probably necessary. But you are correct, we may be back to the day of my youth...say it with me..."you may receive a better picture of KIRO by tuning into one of the UHF translators on your screen"

 

[Bongwater]

Spectrum hog or not...there's gonna be a LOT of angry people on February 17.

Especially out in the hinterlands of America where terrestrial analog broadcast TV signals are the ONLY signals that come in. No cable, no satellite. And no DTV now either....

And you just don't jump from American Idol back to old Abbott & Costello OTR reruns just like that. Not THIS generation....

There HAS to be a better solution. Because as it stands, nobody is using their damn heads. And what's the point in having a subsidized DTV converter when all most of them get are just DTV only?

Analog technology, I'm afraid WILL be with us a little longer than the DTV advocates might think. At least until we can work out ALL the broadcast signal coverage problems. Like I said, they should have started doing that the very minute this thing got signed.

But I guess it's like those new prescription drug ads on TV. Nobody knows the long term benefits or consequences are until they are put into real world use on a mass scale. Then some of them get recalled. Either way, some people are going to suffer badly....

 

[IndigoCoyote]

Yup.

Your results MAY vary...gets 'em every time!

 

[LITTLEBOYBLUE]

and yet it's SOOOOO unlike the Fed's to let the marketing campaign get way ahead of common sense and/or technology.

You can just see all these dweebs parked in a conference room talking about how they have stations "talking about this" and "meeting deadlines" and what-not.

If ya think OBAMA pissed off the small town just wait until they lose three or four weeks of two and half men thanks to the DC brain trust doing their good ol' legislatin'.

Think "AM Stereo" guys & gals...except with a FCC that has SERIOUSLY diminished capacity since THOSE days.

 

[Kelly]

and yet it's SOOOOO unlike the Fed's to let the marketing campaign get way ahead of common sense and/or technology.

You can just see all these dweebs parked in a conference room talking about how they have stations "talking about this" and "meeting deadlines" and what-not.

If ya think OBAMA pissed off the small town just wait until they lose three or four weeks of two and half men thanks to the DC brain trust doing their good ol' legislatin'.

Think "AM Stereo" guys & gals...except with a FCC that has SERIOUSLY diminished capacity since THOSE days.

Geez Dude, you need to watch the drinking and posting..

The whole DTV transition is not station driven, but governmentally driven. Reed Hunt, former FCC commissioner in 1995, sold Congress on the idea that the recovered spectrum after TV stations are forced to migrate to a 100% digital platform, will be valuable in an auction. What they didn't think about, was that low-VHF frequencies, (channel 2 through 6), are useless for digital purposes, so there won't be that many available nation-wide frequencies that are valuable.

The comparison with AM stereo is misplaced. Unlike the DTV migration over the past ten years, AM stereo was a short lived, broadcaster-driven project, to which in the end consumers could care less about. I'd have to say HD radio is a closer comparison to AM stereo than DTV would ever be.

 

[TimmyWA]

I wonder if any pirate broadcasters Video or Audio will take advantage of newly opened frequencies.... I can see someone tuning around with their rabbit-ears and hearing some cool home-grown "radio station" on Channel 5!

 

[LITTLEBOYBLUE]

The whole DTV transition is not station driven, but governmentally driven.

I'm confused....Aren't we in agreement??!!
(My ref to AM stereo is lack of technical LEADERSHIP from within the beltway ... and my point here is that I think the Fed mentality is getting away from a good project plan to implement by letting the marketeers drive the schedule).

HD, it seems, is driven by vendors backed by broadcasters who wear ties and highly possible they will ALL go down in flames as other choices eclipse that whole effort!! Look at all the $$ that has been dumped into iBiquity by all the participants! Kind of like venture cap's throwing in more money on a bad investment JUST to try to salvage it when the investment really never had a chance to fly in the first place. LOTS of that mindset happened in the 90's!

 

[Bongwater]

What killed AM Stereo was the supposed "free market" approach to system selection (same thing happened to Quad in the '70s.) All at once you had a great new enhancement to your listening pleasure, just different and confusing ways of getting it. Had the government made a unanimous system for both (like they did for FM), they'd probably have lasted a lot longer (and maybe AM Stereo would be a given on many radios, like FM Stereo and most AM stations would have it now.)

DTV however was pushed through without much thought to A) Signal qualities necessary to get DTV signals over the air - especially in the rural parts of the US of A. B) The environmental onslaught of MILLIONS of perfectly good, yet suddenly obsolete TV sets soon to be choking up a landfill near you. With tubes and other components absolutely filled with mercury, freon and scores of other deadly chemicals that would make a meth lab look like a 7 year old's lemonade stand. And C) What are we going to do about them?

It's not that I don't like DTV. I have an HDTV and Comcast digital cable and I'm all set for whatever. But there are others who are not as lucky. Lots of them. And we only have so much microwave popcorn and seating in the living room. I don't want my grandma to laugh at me from beyond as my wife and I encounter what my grandparents had to in the first days of television (they were the first people in their entire neighborhood to have a TV in 1949.)

I think Gold Mountain and not Queen Anne or Capitol Hill is the best place for Seattle DTV transmitters signal wise now. Maybe the most cost effective as well....

 

[TexasTom]

The environmental onslaught of MILLIONS of perfectly good, yet suddenly obsolete TV sets soon to be choking up a landfill near you.

Those old TVs aren't obsolete today, and they won't be a year from now, either. Right now, I've got a 1977 vintage color TV that is working perfectly well with a digital tuner -- and with the use of one of those digital TV coupons from the government, it only cost $20 to keep that TV working. If you can receive the signal, any older television will display "DVD quality" pictures from digital broadcasts. It may not be HDTV, but it's not bad...

Regarding the reception problems in "terrain challenged" markets like Seattle/Tacoma -- it will probably take time to work out all the bugs, and the forced transition next year is limiting that time. But I have seen that some of the translator stations in the Puget Sound area have applied either to convert to digital or to add a digital companion channel, so it may well be that digital coverage via translators will manage to fill in a lot of the gaps by this time next year...it will be interesting to see how that progresses.

 

[Bongwater]

The environmental onslaught of MILLIONS of perfectly good, yet suddenly obsolete TV sets soon to be choking up a landfill near you.

Those old TVs aren't obsolete today, and they won't be a year from now, either. Right now, I've got a 1977 vintage color TV that is working perfectly well with a digital tuner -- and with the use of one of those digital TV coupons from the government, it only cost $20 to keep that TV working. If you can receive the signal, any older television will display "DVD quality" pictures from digital broadcasts. It may not be HDTV, but it's not bad...

Regarding the reception problems in "terrain challenged" markets like Seattle/Tacoma -- it will probably take time to work out all the bugs, and the forced transition next year is limiting that time. But I have seen that some of the translator stations in the Puget Sound area have applied either to convert to digital or to add a digital companion channel, so it may well be that digital coverage via translators will manage to fill in a lot of the gaps by this time next year...it will be interesting to see how that progresses.

My hat is off to you. Using old model TVs until they actually die off (or as close to it) may be the way to go with viewers of older model TVs of the '70s and '80s (which were made far better and more reliable than anything today.) No big fancy blue screen menus to figure out with a over complicated remote control. It was just THERE. Instant TV. You turned it on, give it a few seconds of warm up time, it worked. Simple as that.

The old sets were built to last. The newer ones (1990 and beyond) were "planned" with obsolecense in mind, using lower quality, cheaper components. As local TV repair shops began disappearing, it was more economically feasible to buy a brand new TV set than to repair the one you already had, thus stuffing the corporate pockets. And although my eyes have seen the glory of HDTV, I still don't mind the good old trusty analog signal either. Most other people don't either (unless the signal is REALLY bad.)

A few years ago, when I worked at a perennnial farm in Skagit County, WA (babysitting it nightly), all I had was my van, a 5" B/W TV/Radio combo and a pretty broad assortment of analog TV channels to watch from from Seattle AND Vancouver, BC. And if it weren't for a marriage and kids today, I still would be happy with just that alone. It was light years better than what even the very most basic, economy line up of channels cable TV has to offer....

Cable plans it's phase out of analog compatibility in 2012. Or so reads some industry papers.

But over the air. I'd like to see WHICH Seattle TV stations are going to go DTV with their translators......

And where can we find them?......

Cheers!

 

[spectacle]

"Re: Digital Disaster: Seattle...We Have A Problem....."

Should be;

"Re: Digital Disaster: RADIO...We Have A Problem....."

Have you taken a hard analysis of the FREAKIN' 5 STAR DISASTER that HD radio is bud? Most people don't know or care, AM can/can't use it depending on which industry toady you subscribe to and nobody's going to the stores to buy them like HDTV! Which seems to be everywhere when I walk into a store these days!!!! Hmmmmmmmmmm! Which is the disaster, the popular one or the one no one can see or hear??!!

And if you are cable or satellite, even LESS TO CARE ABOUT.

Better get your red flags right guy, radio is IN BIG BIG BIG trouble these days.

 

[TexasTom]

But over the air. I'd like to see WHICH Seattle TV stations are going to go DTV with their translators......

And where can we find them?......

The "TV Query" on the FCC's website http://www.fcc.gov/fcc-bin/audio2?x=tvq.html allows you to search the technical information for on-air full power, low power, and translator stations -- and this includes applications by translators for conversion to digital service. Unfortunately, the information isn't necessarily organized in a way that will make it easy for you to find what you're looking for. If you've got some time, the best thing to do is to play around with the site, do a variety of searches, ang get familiar with how it works.

 

[Bongwater]

"Re: Digital Disaster: Seattle...We Have A Problem....."

Should be;

"Re: Digital Disaster: RADIO...We Have A Problem....."

Have you taken a hard analysis of the FREAKIN' 5 STAR DISASTER that HD radio is bud? Most people don't know or care, AM can/can't use it depending on which industry toady you subscribe to and nobody's going to the stores to buy them like HDTV! Which seems to be everywhere when I walk into a store these days!!!! Hmmmmmmmmmm! Which is the disaster, the popular one or the one no one can see or hear??!!

And if you are cable or satellite, even LESS TO CARE ABOUT.

Better get your red flags right guy, radio is IN BIG BIG BIG trouble these days.

First off, there has been no cut off date that I know of for analog radio yet. It will take at least another good 10-20 years for that. Most radios made today are still analog only...digital being the exception now, not the rule.

However when it is, all hell will suddenly break loose.

I see when radios someday will offer both HD/Analog for a long time yet. But analog radio itself will NOT go away for a long time. HD Radio does have a LOT of problems and problems I hope we will learn from once DTV becomes mandatory next year.....

THAT will be the litmus test for digital over the air broadcasting as far as I'm concerned...It's got some UGLY flaws that actually makes analog look not so bad by comparison...

 

[LITTLEBOYBLUE]

...will be the litmus test for digital over the air broadcasting as far as I'm concerned...It's got some UGLY flaws that actually makes analog look not so bad by comparison...

Much like when CELL communications went digital --- ironic we're still using the "Can you hear me now" slogan!! I never thought that was as much about coverage as it was how dang near every call involves intermittent moments!! Certainly no one can argue Digital is more efficient on spectrum use ... but in communications sometimes the goal is communicating!! But I also admit a great deal of ignorance as I have not used Satellite or HD so not sure if the technology has already been proven to be more reliable than the cell phone introduction of digital transmission.

 

[Bongwater]

But Cell uses higher frequencies than UHF-TV or FM.......you have a point. Somehow my cell gets through even SOME of the worst areas. Maybe because there are local/regional cell towers that are everywhere...