Digital FM without the adjacent channel noise!!

[SUPERCASTER]

Here are some wave file audio clips recorded from FMeXtra the alternative to iBiquity/HD Radio. The FMeXtra system does not use adjacent channels for the digital signal.
The files are very large so you need a good broadband connection to download them.
You can also compare them with the audio clips elsewhere on this board for iBiquity/HD Radio!

http://www.dreinc.com/products/audio.html

 

[autopaint-1]

This is all well and good but what do you suggest we do with the current AM band? By the way, at least here in this part of the country I have no trouble receiving any regional station on FM and even some first ajacents (although any that I receive are well outside of my market and stations which only DXers would tune to).

 

[vsa]

"What do you suggest we do with the current AM band?"

It's called Cam-D. It's far less expensive and does not require a new transmitter, etc. Its footprint is more narrow than regular analog AM. It increases both analog and digital signal coverage while REDUCING interference instead of increasing it. It also can run at night, fully within current FCC rules. All HD Radio AMers are digital DAYTIMERS! Do you call that progress? Up until now, your only comments against it have been rather weak - "poor quality of construction" and "no radios available yet". We've given (I)n (B)and (O)ff (C)hannel a chance. After all, the first HD radio was sold in Iowa clear back in January, 2004. Not many have been sold since, only 20,000 radios in all of 2005. Besides a few engineers and public radio promoters, nobody is buying them. A bad solution that disappoints HD radio buyers is worse than no solution at all. Give Cam-D a chance if you truly believe in a digital future for AM radio!

 

[SUPERCASTER]

I agree.
We need to ditch iBiquity HD AM and FM in favor of more compatible systems.
Why be forced into using a defective, incompatible AM or FM digital system, (like iBiquity HD Radio) when alternatives are available.
I'll wait a few extra months for the radios, if we can have a compatible true ON CHANNEL (not adjacent channel) 24 hour a day digital systems not requiring special FCC final approval, or a new spectrum "mask".

 

[SUPERCASTER]

I agree.
We need to ditch iBiquity HD AM and FM in favor of more compatible systems.
Why be forced into using a defective, incompatible AM or FM digital system, (like iBiquity HD Radio) when alternatives are available.
I'll wait a few extra months for the radios, if we can have a compatible true ON CHANNEL (not adjacent channel) 24 hour a day digital systems not requiring special FCC final approval, or a new spectrum "mask".

IT IS MUCH BETTER TO MAKE NO CHOICE, THEN THE WRONG CHOICE. WE'LL HAVE TO LIVE WITH THE iBiquity WRONG CHOICE ALMOST FOREVER.

 

[autopaint-1]

"It's called Cam-D. It's far less expensive and does not require a new transmitter, etc"

Talked with my boss who is involved at a high level in the digital conversion of the broadcast bands when I first heard the Cam-D demo. His response was forget it, It's not going to happen. Isn't that "Leonard Khans" pride & Joy? I knew that it wouold come down to disgruntled competitors. Is he still suing WADO because they went IBOC?

 

[vsa]

"Isn't that "Leonard Khans" pride & Joy? I knew that it wouold come down to disgruntled competitors."

This is your rebuttal to my points about Kahn Communications' Cam-D? When you have to resort to belittling others personally and referring to them as disgruntled competitors, you've shown your true colors.

The WADO thing is about an alleged conspiracy to eliminate competition. When I last checked, the lawsuit was still on.

You STILL haven't given any reasons why (C)ompatible (A)-(M) (D)igital should not be the prefered choice for AM. Kahn may be a bit of an eccentric, but he knows his stuff and his system is clearly superior!

Do you really think HD Radio's AM digital DAYTIMERS are going to sweep the under-30 crowd into the stores to buy HD radios and save the AM band?

 

[vsa]

"Talked with my boss who is involved at a high level in the digital conversion of the broadcast bands..."

Thanks for revealing to us WHERE your bread is really buttered!

 

[sbe1]

If Cam D is so good, why hasnt it been tested on any larger stations? The only large station I know of that tried it was KRVN and they nixed it almost immediately....There is a station here in the Tampa area that I believe has tried it, but I cant tell for sure. One thing I noticed is on a Spec analyser, one sideband is much smaller than the other. During this time the station had highly distorted audio. There was an article in Radio World talking about a Tampa area test station, but they never ID'd the station, so I cant tell if this is it for sure, but I think it was.

 

[autopaint-1]

Hi SBE 1, what station is that? My family has lived in Tampa for nearly 20 years and watched it grow into quite some city. My daughter goes to college in St Pete, and my brother lives in Branden, so although I'm not a resident, I do know the area somwehat. I'm coming down at the end of August and would like to listen to the Cam-D station if they're still broadcasting with that system by that time. I know that the entire IBOC/Cam-D story has long deep and angry roots and while I feel I have been honest about where I come from in all this, I don't believe the same can be said for the other side. There's a CAM-D demo on line that I've heard and all I remember about it was that the station had to build their own equipment from scratch. That's no way for an industry to operate. I've also heard from experienced maintanence people that the construction quality of Kahn's other products wasn't of the highest order. However, that is hearsay so I'll leave that for the readers to conclude.

 

[vsa]

"If Cam D is so good, why hasnt it been tested on any larger stations? The only large station I know of that tried it was KRVN and they nixed it almost immediately....There is a station here in the Tampa area that I believe has tried it, but I cant tell for sure. One thing I noticed is on a Spec analyser, one sideband is much smaller than the other. During this time the station had highly distorted audio. There was an article in Radio World talking about a Tampa area test station, but they never ID'd the station, so I cant tell if this is it for sure, but I think it was."

You are referring to this commentary on Kahn's Powerside system, not Kahn's Cam-D:

http://www.rwonline.com/reference-room/iboc/2006.03.01-02_rwrf_march_1_part_2_new.shtml

My understanding is that after Cam-D is properly tuned to its sweet spot, the analog audio response is clean and reaches at least 9kHz as opposed to HD's 5kHz bandwidth. The KRVN test was made very early in the game and the system may not have been properly tuned. Keep in mind that KRVN has not adopted HD Radio.

Like Kahn's AM Stereo and Powerside, Cam-D uses unequal side bands and achieves improved analog signal coverage as a result. Radio Magazine had this information on Cam-D:

http://beradio.com/digital_radio_update/iboc_update_20040915/#kahn

Cam-D may not be a "perfect" solution, but it does no damage and even improves analog coverage - and most importantly - IT WORKS AT NIGHT without causing a complete TRAINWRECK on the AM band.

 

[autopaint-1]

"most engineers question whether his primarily analog approach can realistically expect to compete with the 34kp/s pure digital stream delivered by Ibiquity's AM HD Radio standard."

IBOC may have problems as you see it but comparing Cam D to IBOC is like comparing the old RCA needle in groove video disc to the pioneer laser disc.

 

[Chuck]

I've also heard from experienced maintanence people that the construction quality of Kahn's other products wasn't of the highest order. However, that is hearsay so I'll leave that for the readers to conclude.

At last years Texas Association of Broadcaster's convention, a very enthusiastic station owner made a presentation about his station and it's experiences with CAM-D. They were running it on the air. He sure liked it. I think it was in the Beaumont, TX area with a little coverage into parts of Houston. I wish I could remember who it was. He claimed that it actually helped their analog coverage and over-all fidelity. If it really does that, there is a lot of appeal to the idea. It would be interesting to see what he thinks of it a year later.

Of course, I've never heard CAM-D. I doubt that anyone on these boards has, just Leonard's rantings, some of which I agree with, some I don't. But I suspect that his system does work. I wish he'd do more to promote it in a positive manner. A few demonstratuons at NAB, TAB or whatever, might go a long way to clear the smoke. His "Wrath of Kahn" web site is fun to look at anyway.

I plan to attend TAB this summer. Maybe I'll hear more.

 

[vsa]

Chuck,

I don't disagree with you at all. I too would like to hear what that Texas radio station owner has to say a year later, I read a piece about it somewhere. I look forward to what you have to say after the TAB convention this summer.

 

[vsa]

"At last years Texas Association of Broadcaster's convention, a very enthusiastic station owner made a presentation about his station and it's experiences with CAM-D. They were running it on the air. He sure liked it. I think it was in the Beaumont, TX area with a little coverage into parts of Houston. I wish I could remember who it was."

Chuck, here's a link to a page that includes the information on KRCM and also KOLE. Both stations (with the owner you mentioned) have been running CAM-D.

http://www.wrathofkahn.org/wst_page5.html

 

[sbe1]

It is my understanding that Power Side is part of Cam D. In fact, according to Leonard in his rantings on his website, he says you can put in Powerside now and the rest later if you want.

 

[Chuck]

Chuck, here's a link to a page that includes the information on KRCM and also KOLE. Both stations (with the owner you mentioned) have been running CAM-D.

http://www.wrathofkahn.org/wst_page5.html

That's the one. TAB is August 9-11. It's always an enjoyable get together. I will report back any news I hear about these (or other) stations involved with CAM-D. I'd love to tell everyone that it works great, but none of us have ever heard it. I'm not sure what you'd do for a radio at the moment, but if it doesn't mess up your current AM coveragge, and it allows you to use an existing transmitter and antenna, then it is worthy of consideration.

I sure wish that Leonard's web site was a little more informational and a little less in your face. Sometimes, it's not what you say, but how you say it.

 

[arnoldevns]

I sure wish that Leonard's web site was a little more informational and a little less in your face. Sometimes, it's not what you say, but how you say it.

Wow! I had no idea Leonard Kahn had created an AM digital broadcasting system. Kahn is a genius. He's eccentric and has failed repeatedly to get the FCC to make his ideas a reality, but he is a genius.

Kahn created his first AM stereo system in the 60s, but the FCC did not want AM stations doing stereo for fear it would kill FM.
His next AM stereo system was one of five that competed to be the standard in the AM stereo race of the early 80s. Of course, that battle ultimately was pointless since music had long since left most of the AM band by the time Motorola was declared the standard in the early 90s.

In both cases, Kahn likely had the best system, but couldn't get broadcasters or the FCC to agree.

I have not heard his new system, but it sounds like it has an advantage over Ibiquity since AM stations can operate at night with it.

Unfortunately, Kahn is again fighting a losing battle again. The only way his system will survive is to get a radio manufacturer to make a bunch of inexpensive radios with his system and to get a bunch of radio stations to broadcast with it. I don't see either thing happening.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Dear "tested",
I mostly agree.
Leonard has taken his plea to the courts. I'm not sure if that is the best course of action, or if he will win his case, but he is quite a personality.
I can somewhat understand his zealous protectiveness. He has been down this route before and got his ideas stolen, and thoroughly screwed.
He is a genius, but like some geniuses, some might say he has become eccentric.
The same happened to geniuses Major Armstrong, FM inventor, and Philo Farnsworth, electronic TV inventor. Both finally won their court battles against mogals with a bigger public relations departments. But it took decades and cost them almost everything.
I think Leonard may, one day, be added to this list of frustrated (with the system) geniuses.

 

[1q2w3e]

Dear "tested",
I mostly agree.
Leonard has taken his plea to the courts. I'm not sure if that is the best course of action, or if he will win his case, but he is quite a personality.
I can somewhat understand his zealous protectiveness. He has been down this route before and got his ideas stolen, and thoroughly screwed.
He is a genius, but like some geniuses, some might say he has become eccentric.
The same happened to geniuses Major Armstrong, FM inventor, and Philo Farnsworth, electronic TV inventor. Both finally won their court battles against mogals with a bigger public relations departments. But it took decades and cost them almost everything.
I think Leonard may, one day, be added to this list of frustrated (with the system) geniuses.

There are no CAMD radios. I personally talked to Leonard Kahn. I was seriously interested in what he had to say. But after talking to him, he seems more interested in muddying the waters than really creating a solution.

No one that I know of has heard the CAMD digital signal yet.