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"Digital radio in Canada" (IBOC addressed)

7

700WLW

Guest
"Digital radio in Canada"

"The Commission is very concerned about the stalled DRB transition. Roughly 15 of the 76 authorized stations (including the digital-only operation in Toronto) are not on the air. Some stations that once operated have since ceased operations. Few recievers have been sold, and there is no interest in expanding DRB service beyond the six cities where it exists."

http://americanbandscan.blogspot.com/2006/12/digital-radio-in-canada.html

The same thing will happen in the US with HD Radio/IBOC.
 
Digital radio in Canada has failed because they were early adopters of the Eureka 147 DAB system on the L band, which was never authorized for use in the U.S. The American government decided to keep the L band for military use.

Unfortunately for Canada, most consumer electronics manufacturers consider that country as nothing more than an extension of the U.S. market. With no DAB radio in the United States, almost no manufacturers made the receivers just for Canada.

If the American government had authorized DAB on the L band when the rest of the world approved it in the late 80s, chances are digital radio would have been launched in the U.S. using that system at about the same time as it was in Canada. With Canada and the U.S. making up an entire North American market for DAB, more receiver manufacturers would have jumped on board and I believe it would have flourished in both countries.

However the rejection of that DAB proposal by U.S. policymakers forced our American broadcasters to make the best of a bad situation. If they wanted to have digital broadcasting here, there was no choice but to do it on the existing AM & FM bands. This is what ultimately led to the development of IBOC, which is finally hitting the air nearly a decade later.

Now it's not realistic to say that same thing will happen in the U.S. with HD Radio/IBOC as happened in Canada with DAB. It's an entirely different system, the market is ten times larger and there's a lot more money being spent on getting it into the marketplace. Even at this early stage in its evolution, there are already more HD radio receivers on the market here in the U.S. than there ever were DAB receivers available in Canada.

I think any radio enthusiast would admit they'd have rather had a whole new radio band with a dedicated digital transmission system. Instead we ended up with a compromise thanks to our government, but a compromise is better than nothing, so considering that's what got approved I look forward to seeing it succeed.

I believe Canada will ultimately adopt the same system as the U.S. because the our country's marketplace tends to set the standard for the entire continent due to supply & demand. Historically, Canada has followed the lead of the U.S. in such matters, not the other way around, and I understand they're already talking about switching to IBOC now that it's finally happening to their south.
 
DanCon said:
Digital radio in Canada has failed because they were early adopters of the Eureka 147 DAB system on the L band, which was never authorized for use in the U.S. The American government decided to keep the L band for military use.

A-Digital radio, except for internet radio, requires buying new receivers, or equipment. Consumers do not know, or care if the radios are L band or something else. HD internet radio uses equipment, services, and facilities most consumers already have.

Unfortunately for Canada, most consumer electronics manufacturers consider that country as nothing more than an extension of the U.S. market. With no DAB radio in the United States, almost no manufacturers made the receivers just for Canada.

A-Eureka, DRM, WI-FI, the internet, and soon, WI-MAX, as well as other systems are worldwide, and not just in Canada.
More radios and TV's are sold outside the United States then inside. This has been true for decades.


If the American government had authorized DAB on the L band when the rest of the world approved it in the late 80s, chances are digital radio would have been launched in the U.S. using that system at about the same time as it was in Canada. With Canada and the U.S. making up an entire North American market for DAB, more receiver manufacturers would have jumped on board and I believe it would have flourished in both countries.

A-The market for radios, TVs, and other media is worldwide, and far bigger then just the US.

However the rejection of that DAB proposal by U.S. policymakers forced our American broadcasters to make the best of a bad situation. If they wanted to have digital broadcasting here, there was no choice but to do it on the existing AM & FM bands. This is what ultimately led to the development of IBOC, which is finally hitting the air nearly a decade later.

A-IBiquity is far from the only method of getting digital audio, video, or media, even HD. The US already has two exclusive digital radio services, Sirius, and XM, as well as others that are worldwide such as internet, WI-Fi, etc. The old line media have the same opportunity to participate in digital media as anyone else, in fact some own stock in Sirius, and XM, and most broadcast digitally over the internet and by extension WI-FI. No one "forced" American broadcasters to do anything. They made the bad decision to go with the flawed and defective iBiquity system over the objections of the public, engineers, scientists, and just about everyone. They talked themselves into it, by self deception.

Now it's not realistic to say that same thing will happen in the U.S. with HD Radio/IBOC as happened in Canada with DAB. It's an entirely different system, the market is ten times larger and there's a lot more money being spent on getting it into the marketplace. Even at this early stage in its evolution, there are already more HD radio receivers on the market here in the U.S. than there ever were DAB receivers available in Canada.

A-Again, Eureka, DRM, FMeXtra (www.dreinc.com), WI-FI, (soon) WI-MAX and other systems are available and in operation worldwide, and not just in Canada. The US alone, no longer drives the world market for media.

I think any radio enthusiast would admit they'd have rather had a whole new radio band with a dedicated digital transmission system. Instead we ended up with a compromise thanks to our government, but a compromise is better than nothing, so considering that's what got approved I look forward to seeing it succeed.

A-The FCC gave us Sirius, XM, exclusively in the US, as well as the flawed iBiquity system. Most other digital media are available worldwide, including the US. About the only thing the US did not get was the use of the "L band". So what. The L band digital is failing just like iBiquity. There are already too many other, better, digital media choices.

I believe Canada will ultimately adopt the same system as the U.S. because the our country's marketplace tends to set the standard for the entire continent due to supply & demand. Historically, Canada has followed the lead of the U.S. in such matters, not the other way around, and I understand they're already talking about switching to IBOC now that it's finally happening to their south.

A-Canada would be foolish not to investigate the iBiquity system for FM among all other alternatives. They have already pretty much rejected iBiquity for AM, and have not been favorably impressed by the interference and channel allocation problems of iBiquity for FM. No one has reported that Canada is about to switch to iBiquity, except it's promoters, and they are nothing but all hype all the time. As one prominant board poster, and HD supporter exclaimed when confronted by the iBiquity cartel's wild claims, virtually all claims made by iBiquity supporters are BS.
I agree.
Remember, the world demand, and market for digital media is mostly outside the US.
Here are links you might want to check out:
"Digital Radio in trouble around the world"
http://www.radio-info.com/smf/index.php/topic,57338.msg400521.html#msg400521
http://www.digitalradiotech.co.uk/
 
DanCon said:
Now it's not realistic to say that same thing will happen in the U.S. with HD Radio/IBOC as happened in Canada with DAB. It's an entirely different system, the market is ten times larger and there's a lot more money being spent on getting it into the marketplace. Even at this early stage in its evolution, there are already more HD radio receivers on the market here in the U.S. than there ever were DAB receivers available in Canada.

I believe Canada will ultimately adopt the same system as the U.S. because the our country's marketplace tends to set the standard for the entire continent due to supply & demand. Historically, Canada has followed the lead of the U.S. in such matters, not the other way around, and I understand they're already talking about switching to IBOC now that it's finally happening to their south.

Well, as the article stated, Canada is also considering abandoning digital radio, all together. So far, US consumers, as in Canada, have spoken with apathy towards digital radio - HD Radio/IBOC will fail to reach any critical mass.
 
DanCon said:
The American government decided to keep the L band for military use.
Yes its stupid.... They should have used this mostly unused L BAND for this digital crap and leave the analog frequencies alone!!
 
DanCon said:
Digital radio in Canada has failed because they were early adopters of the Eureka 147 DAB system on the L band, which was never authorized for use in the U.S. The American government decided to keep the L band for military use.
...
However the rejection of that DAB proposal by U.S. policymakers forced our American broadcasters to make the best of a bad situation. If they wanted to have digital broadcasting here, there was no choice but to do it on the existing AM & FM bands. This is what ultimately led to the development of IBOC, which is finally hitting the air nearly a decade later.

I am not at all convinced the government couldn't have found *somewhere* else to put DAB. (I am not at all convinced the military actually needed the L band) Eureka is flexible in terms of where it can go in the spectrum - in Britain (where it's been fairly successful) it operates in former VHF-TV spectrum near 225MHz; in Poland it's been experimented with within the existing 88-108MHz band. (admittedly it didn't work very well for them) Here, it could have been accomodated within the 54-88MHz VHF-TV band; while there *will* be some digital TV stations in this band, four of the five channels will be open in every market except Butte, Montana. (where only three will be available) That's plenty of spectrum to provide a digital signal for everyone.

Broadcasters didn't put up any kind of fight whatsoever to get spectrum for DAB. It is obvious to me that they *didn't want* any DAB scheme that wasn't IBOC. The reasons for that are both good and bad -- good, to avoid having to buy new antennas, and to avoid the "spectrum giveaway" label TV broadcasters are facing; bad, to avoid competition when the guy with the AM daytimer suddenly has a DAB facility with 24/7 full-quality coverage.

================

It is interesting to read the entire Canadian document.

http://www.crtc.gc.ca/archive/ENG/Notices/2006/pb2006-160.htm

The CRTC is on the record as stating that IBOC can cause interference to other stations; they say they would consider authorizing IBOC in Canada <b>if</b> the interference issues can be addressed. Also in the proceeding, the CBC states that AM "...IBOC transmission at night is not practical.". They also consider the current implementation of IBOC forces a degradation in sound quality for AM stations by requiring the reduction of audio bandwidth to 4.5KHz.

These aren't a couple of hobbyists or small-time AM daytimer operators complaining. It's the Canadian government's regulatory agency and the country's largest broadcaster.
 
w9wi said:
Broadcasters didn't put up any kind of fight whatsoever to get spectrum for DAB. It is obvious to me that they *didn't want* any DAB scheme that wasn't IBOC. The reasons for that are both good and bad -- good, to avoid having to buy new antennas, and to avoid the "spectrum giveaway" label TV broadcasters are facing; bad, to avoid competition when the guy with the AM daytimer suddenly has a DAB facility with 24/7 full-quality coverage.

I think you have summed the situation up quite well. The current IBOC system has nothing to do with superior technology. It is obvious that there are many other ways to achieve digital radio, most of which would be technically better than a hybrid system. The real issue is large broadcasters do not want to have a digital system that would give small broadcasters parity with their stronger signals.

Just follow the money. It doesn't get much simpler than that.
 
Interesting blogs - DX'ers hate IBOC the most (including myself), because nighttime AM IBOC, if approved, would put an end to that hobby; I especially enjoyed the Yahoo Group to put an end to Clear Channel ! :D The only people interested in HD Radio/IBOC seem to be a few "radio geeks", who enjoy the challenge of mounting roof-top and attic dipole antennas - and they get to DX their local IBOC stations. An interesting note in the article about digital radio in Canada, is that they are abandoning terrestrial DRB in-dash and installing Satellite Radio, instead:

"... As a result, automakers have switched their support from terrestrial DRB to XM/Sirius satellite radio ..."

To the displeasure of the David Eduardo's of the world, looks like Canadian AM will be safe to DX for a while.
 
700WLW said:
Interesting blogs - DX'ers hate IBOC the most (including myself), because nighttime AM IBOC, if approved, would put an end to that hobby; I especially enjoyed the Yahoo Group to put an end to Clear Channel ! :D The only people interested in HD Radio/IBOC seem to be a few "radio geeks", who enjoy the challenge of mounting roof-top and attic dipole antennas - and they get to DX their local IBOC stations. An interesting note in the article about digital radio in Canada, is that they are abandoning terrestrial DRB in-dash and installing Satellite Radio, instead:

"... As a result, automakers have switched their support from terrestrial DRB to XM/Sirius satellite radio ..."

And the current prediction is that internet radio will become satellite's main competition, especially as WiMAX achieves greater penetration.

So it appears (so far) that web radio will be the winner of the digital war. Stay tuned...

db
 
dbdigital said:
700WLW said:
Interesting blogs - DX'ers hate IBOC the most (including myself), because nighttime AM IBOC, if approved, would put an end to that hobby; I especially enjoyed the Yahoo Group to put an end to Clear Channel ! :D The only people interested in HD Radio/IBOC seem to be a few "radio geeks", who enjoy the challenge of mounting roof-top and attic dipole antennas - and they get to DX their local IBOC stations. An interesting note in the article about digital radio in Canada, is that they are abandoning terrestrial DRB in-dash and installing Satellite Radio, instead:

"... As a result, automakers have switched their support from terrestrial DRB to XM/Sirius satellite radio ..."

And the current prediction is that internet radio will become satellite's main competition, especially as WiMAX achieves greater penetration.

So it appears (so far) that web radio will be the winner of the digital war. Stay tuned...

db

Wrong - from "WIFI-FO-FUM" thread:

"Wi-fi Radio in the Wings"

"What this means, of course, is that Wi-fi radio is poised to be widely available on belt clips and dashboards sooner rather than later. Factor in the appearance of proposed Wi-max networks, some of which are rolling out as this is story being written, and it's not hard to see where radio may be heading. And while it's a great time for those who love the idea of unlimited choice in radio programming, it's just one more shot across the bow for the traditional broadcast model across America."

http://beradio.com/digital_radio_update/digital_radio_update_122006/#wifi

According to Ramsey, Satellite Radio is already taking advantage of other transport technologies - it is terrestrial radio that is stuck in the Dark Ages, with HD Radio:

"The End of Satellite Radio?"

"Namely, this partnership between a company called Zing and Sirius. Zing is a start-up which is designing a wireless entertainment engine that would stream content, presumably via the Internet, to mobile devices."

http://www.hear2.com/2006/06/the_end_of_sate.html
 
More like it's an admission by the Canadians that IBOC is a more viable system than the one they originally tried.
 
DanCon said:
More like it's an admission by the Canadians that IBOC is a more viable system than the one they originally tried.

They are just desperate, as in the US, and they have already stated that nighttime AM is not viable, and that is all that matters.
 
DanCon said:
More like it's an admission by the Canadians that IBOC is a more viable system than the one they originally tried.

Did anyone think that DAB's lack-luster performance in Canada might be caused by the fact that the new stations are just simulcasting what a listener can already get on their existing analog radio? That is not a compelling reason to buy a digital radio. No wonder it is failing.

Unless new technology brings some benefit to the consumer, it will fail. The current Canadian version of digital radio offers very little to the average consumer. On the other hand, if they offered programming you couldn't get on the regular broadcast bands, it might be more attractive.

IBOC, take notice.
 
Chuck said:
DanCon said:
More like it's an admission by the Canadians that IBOC is a more viable system than the one they originally tried.

Did anyone think that DAB's lack-luster performance in Canada might be caused by the fact that the new stations are just simulcasting what a listener can already get on their existing analog radio? That is not a compelling reason to buy a digital radio. No wonder it is failing.

Unless new technology brings some benefit to the consumer, it will fail. The current Canadian version of digital radio offers very little to the average consumer. On the other hand, if they offered programming you couldn't get on the regular broadcast bands, it might be more attractive.

IBOC, take notice.

I can't imagaine, what the Canadians are thinking, with IBOC - just as with DAB, IBOC will be met, with the same apathy, as it has in the US. Terrestrial radio, is just not important enough to consumers, to purchase expensive digital radios, when analog portable and clock radios cost $10 - $25. HD Radio/IBOC, clearly does not benefit consumers, with robotic, repetitive, low-bitrate digital streams of the same old material, that will evetually contain commercials. When, are broadcasters ever going to learn, that consumers do not have problems, with the existing broadcast bands, and that radio is just a convenience. At least, the Canadians will not put up with IBOC's interference, so IBOC's applications will be limited, if it ever happens. All this shows, is a solution, in search of a problem - desperate times, call for desperate measures. Interesting to note, that iNiquity considers HD Radio/IBOC a failure, if it is not broadcast 24/7, on both bands - IBOC is not going to happen, on the AM band:

"RW Opinion: Rethinking AM’s future"

"Only 175 or so AM stations have even licensed AM-HD. For a number of reasons, quite a few have tried it and taken it off the air, or so the anecdotal evidence suggests. (Ibiquity no longer reports in its public summaries whether a station is on the air.)"

http://www.rwonline.com/pages/s.0044/t.557.html
 
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