"Digital reception blues"

[700WLW]

"Digital reception blues"

"As us broadcasters transition to digital, we're going to have to get used to the kind of satisfaction numbers that cellular "enjoys." Even HD Radio, which chose a more robust technology than did television, is showing subjectively less coverage than does analog radio, especially on the HD-2 and HD-3 channels. Of course, what that probably means will be that we will drive even more people to cable, DBS, satellite radio, and IP radio (the latter of which is less than a couple of years away in cars and is doing quite well already in homes and offices)."

http://technology360.typepad.com/technology360/2006/10/digital_recepti.html

 

[zumahans]

Great. You want me to go out and buy a $200 radio and it won't work in most of a market?

 

[hipporadio]

Great. You want me to go out and buy a $200 radio and it won't work in most of a market?

Well I haven't been motivated to (thus far); and I suffer from a nearly uncontrollable desire to get out my credit card and add to my arsenal of RF gadgets when nearly ANY decent excuse may justify such. There’s the Grundig “crank radio”... The ugly AM antenna (that allowed the Grundig to snare more stations)... Even the obscenely-overpriced clock radio that docks my iPod (‘cause I just need to wake up to more than the same 200 tunes on the area CC Classic Rock station). The “shrink” treating this “excessive-compulsive disorder” seems happy that I’ve finally managed to “draw the line” and resist yet another superfluous purchase... HD Radio. He Emailed me the other day and said “Congrats Hippo – you’ve taken a big step in dealing with your disorder!” 8)

 

[700WLW]

The Grundig crank radio is a real piece of junk - I bought an S350 from RS, but returned it, because of the VERY poor quality (hope, you don't have one), and having an analog tuner, it still drifted with its kludged lock mechanism. Grundigs used to be made in Germany, but are now made in China - Grundig should be embarrassed for putting its name on this junk. The S350 is way over-hyped, as my $25 RS PLL receiver gets just as good reception.

 

[hipporadio]

The Grundig crank radio is a real piece of junk - I bought an S350 from RS, but returned it, because of the VERY poor quality (hope, you don't have one), and having an analog tuner, it still drifted with its kludged lock mechanism. Grundigs used to be made in Germany, but are now made in China - Grundig should be embarrassed for putting its name on this junk. The S350 is way over-hyped, as my $25 RS PLL receiver gets just as good reception.

"700"... I must confess - I DO OWN ONE (a earlier version of it - the FR-200 - not the 350 you mention). The 200 was much better on RECEPTION of AM. Actually, although "cheap" - it's fairly good at that. I reviewed it at Amazon as well - and gave it a generally POSITIVE nod as a "camp 'n canoe" and "emergency" radio. Actually, the Grundig FR-200 is a good radio (specifly on AM to take out on a backcountry trip)... "State of the art" at $40 - NOT, but a good standby radio and companion in "the wild" on the cheap - YES! My point in the post was "I purchesed ONE OF THESE (the Grundig) - but I do NOT own a "$200 "HD-Radio"... OK... Understand... Catch my "drift"... Don't make the "auxilary" and demure Grundig FR-200 a pawn in the IBOC debate!

 

[hipporadio]

deleted... SORRY - my goof

 

[hipporadio]

deleated again... sorry... I wish they'd get this software de-bugged! ;D

 

[700WLW]

I gave the S350 a flaming review on Amazon - "Same cheap junk as Tecsun/Eton BCL-2000,3000 !", and it deserved every bit of it ! I just got tired of all the manufacturers' hype about the CCradio, Superadio, and S350 being some sort of "DX machines". My little $25 RS model 12-898 (about the size of the Sony 7600GR), is surprisingly very good quality and gets great reception, so when it went on clearance, I picked up three of them; searching Amazon and Ebay, I have not seen anything close to it. Seems like every time a great radio somes out, such as the RS DX-440, RS eventually discontinues it; unfortunately, I don't know of any SW receivers today that can match the RS DX-440 or the Sony ICF-2010 in quality. At least the Receptor HD line is decent quality and I haven't looked at the Accurian HD, yet. Reading through the reviews on Amazon for the FR-200, I had to laugh, as the crank falling off seems to be a common problem, along with poor reception; I handled one at RS and I couldn't believe it was a Grundig - then, I started doing some research and found out that Grundigs are now being made in China. The CCradio, Superadio, and S350 all have some serious quality-control problems, but enough of that...

 

[hipporadio]

"700" - here's my high quality AM receiver roundup...

“700”... Seems you like AM a lot (me too)... So here’s the best from my arsenal of quality AM receivers:

The Icom R-71 “digital” AM-SW receiver with accessory 15khz (7.5 audio) IF filter installed, standard 5 and 2khz filters available – PBT at 1khz intervals on E-SSB (1988) THE ULTIMATE in AM station reception (but not audio quality). Icom builds for the "DXer" - not the "audiophile". I have used this radio with two antennas: (1) a custom outdoor 70-ft horizontal longwire w/matching Xformer to 50-ohm balanced input... and (2) The C Crane tuned and amplified Ferrite bar antenna usable indoors near a window. AWESOME in every respect. AM dream come true for RECEPTION! The best DX receiver!

Carver TX-11B (1987)... A VERY HIGH QUALITY AM AUDIO tuner 7.5/15 khz (NRSC de-emph select) “digital” tuner... MUST have an EXTERNAL antenna. EXCEPTIONAL AM audio quality... Suitable for AM transmitter monitoring in wideband mode. Best fed with a longwire or C-Crane ferrite antenna. DX – forget it... This tuner was designed for “hi-fi AM” listening only!

ORIGINAL 1980 GE SuperRadio portable. Awesome AM reception and audio quality all by itself, but no coverage beyond @1640khz. Analog-tuned. Very good “DX receiver”.

THE Denon AM-FM “NRSC“ digitally-tuned tuner (1989)... Two bandwidths with an NRSC “limit” of 9.6 khz. Reasonable sensitivity on AM and FM from the supplied antennas – vastly improved with above antennas, yet NO overloading. VERY GOOD audio on “local” and “regional” stations. Not a preferable DX receiver – too wide a bandwidrh – designed for “quality” listening on AM (THANK GOD).. Considering the “AM audio tradeoff “– this is the best!

Nakamichi Clock Radio 1 (1989)... By itself – only “so-so” on AM, but stand a Terk “AM Advantage” antenna behind it, and it becomes a “hot” receiver with VERY GOOD AM station audio quality. Not a DX choice, but will deliver EVERY AM you'd elect to listen to.

McIntosh MR-78... Very good sounding and performing AM-FM home component tuner. Equal sensitivity across the 540-1600 band – no X-band. Two bandwidths – “High” is very good “fi” but requires a strong signal to surpass the circuit noise in the receiver. A great “living room” radio for "locals", but not helped a lot by an external antenna.

Radio Shack Realistic STA-65B – an RS home receiver with 32 watts-per-channel on the market in 1970 (my first stereo). Very good FM (for that era) and AM. AM was STILL important back then, and this product performed well on that band – very good sensitivity and good-sounding “round” 6khz bandwidth audio. Built-in “tuned” ferrite bar antenna with TRUE capacitor tuning (sliding metal “fingers”) yielded very good reception – could be improved GREATLY (with NO overload) by an external antenna described above. THE BEST home AM music receiver at that time for fine contemporary AM listening. Find a music station now, and you'll like this tuner!

So you AM lovers "go for it"... Buy your C Crane antennas and hit eBay for these old receivers, then find a music station - and ENJOY!

 

[700WLW]

Great list, thanks... I started out in the 1960's on SWL (didn't even know about AM DXing) with a home-built KnightKit Star Roamer, then graduated to a RS DX-440. SWL is a dying hobby, and I am afraid that, if nighttime IBOC ever gets approved, say goodbye to AM DXing. For example, I've read stories of KSL 1160 SLC being picked up on the East Coast, but that has all changed with the FCC restructuring the clear channel rules in the 1980's - from Maryland, the farthest West I can get is WHO 1040 Des Moines, South to WWL 870 New Orleans, and many stations in Canada...

 

[hipporadio]

I gave the S350 a flaming review on Amazon - "Same cheap junk as Tecsun/Eton BCL-2000,3000 !", and it deserved every bit of it ! I just got tired of all the manufacturers' hype about the CCradio, Superadio, and S350 being some sort of "DX machines"... Seems like every time a great radio somes out, such as the RS DX-440, RS eventually discontinues it; unfortunately, I don't know of any SW receivers today that can match the RS DX-440 or the Sony ICF-2010 in quality. Reading through the reviews on Amazon for the FR-200, I had to laugh, as the crank falling off seems to be a common problem, along with poor reception...The CCradio, Superadio, and S350 all have some serious quality-control problems, but enough of that...

Tecsun’s S-350 is a “dog”... It can’t stay tuned to the same freq for longer then ten minutes... But I hear you can spend $50 extra for an “enhanced model” that will lock on for about 20-minutes. :

The RS DX-440 is a “classic”, and well deserves a place in the “Hall of Fame”. Face it: models come and go – and that model “went”.

A brief quip on the Grindig FR-200: the “crank” on mine has NOT fallen off... “CHEAP” – very much so, but try to place things in some reasonable perspective. The FR-200 (at its whopping forty bucks) is the best “alternative” radio on the market. FM is terrible (SERIOUS overload problem), SW is “pedestrian” at best – but AM is OK – and it sounds good.

For the FIRST TIME in a forum, I’ll speak to the “CC Radio Plus”. I like the C Crane Company – I like them A LOT! They care about their customers – they have an interest in finding and marketing extemporary AM products – I want them to prosper! I own the CC Radio Plus, but DID NOT include it in my “AM honor roll”. The CC Radio Plus basically represents Crane’s total reliance on Sangean (until recently an OEM company that built radios destined for another brand name) to build a better AM portable - when ALL the other pacific-rim consumer electronics firms would not - then market it to a specific AM interest group. That product is basically a Sangean 909 minus SW and a world clock. Crane tried to “do their own thing” in the form of the “Mini CC Radio” - which after a year of web updates and advance orders was aborted with the explanation “performance did not meet our expectations”. As for the CC Radio Plus: take away the popularity of talk radio, and I doubt C Crane would have even “gone there”. Despite the hype, I'm sorry to report that this radio is NOT an AM “standout”. It suffers from marginal sensitivity, easy overloads from strong local signals, and “breakthrough” of powerful 6MHz region SW signals into its AM range during late afternoon/early evening.

On a brighter note, C Crane sells a Sangean AM-FM “Walkman” (the model DT-200V) which sports VERY GOOD audio quality and THE BEST AM and FM reception in its class; the Sangean WR-1 and WR-2 “Wooden Table Radios” which are nearly equivalent to the celebrated Bose at a fraction of the price; the awesome Kaito 1103 compact travel portable AM/FM/SW radio for a mere $110; and the very best “smart” battery recharge station on the market. And when will we see a CC Radio Plus version 2 ???

 

[700WLW]

Isn't the CCradio famous for its display failing, then CCrane offers to fix it for $50 ? And I have read that the Superadio's switches tend to fall off - ah, I guess we live in a throw-away society !

 

[Tom Wells]

Ahhh, DIGITAL. You mean I can use my fingers? Or y'mean it's either on or off?
Is there a PWM direct-link linear driver motor attached to my ear-drum?
Of course you must mean analog-digital-analog reception.
As long as the sound starts as analog, and enters our ears as analog, any system of rapidly switching on and off a complex semaphore
system to describe the analog seems like quite an exercise in Rube Goldberg-ism.
Why not just do a good job with the analog? Oh, that's right, too many people wanted to make it all foolproof.
I hope they're happy now. By the way, a computer makes a poor radio, and a radio makes a poor computer.

I am reminded now just how much I appreciate continous-tuning with REAL LC components.
Tuning PLL radios with their step-step-step noises and in Delco-Delphi radios, a 2-second MUTE is wretched.
This is another reason why I feel AM has suffered.
Instead of being able to spin the tuner and hear the stations go by, stopping if you are interested, you are locked into a slow,
agonizing process that may take 2-3 minutes to scan the AM band completely.
I feel this cumbersome process, AND the inability to offset to one sideband or the other, has done much to weaken AM's
"ease of use" for the listener, and taught them that AM sounded poor.
Will someone puh-LEEZE bring back meaningful engineering rooted in the REAL WORLD?

 

[4dude]

Great. You want me to go out and buy a $200 radio and it won't work in most of a market?

Yes totally stupid and un-needed (Especially on the AM band)

 

[rbrucecarter5]

It is still amazing to me ---

How the HD radio folks bash DX'ers as being outmoded, but when they start having coverage issues - out comes a who bag of tricks from DX'ers. The only problem is - people will discover the REAL stations hidden between stations: i.e. signals from other markets. And they will sound a lot better than undersampled mono HD2 and HD3 streams!

 

[700WLW]

It is still amazing to me ---

How the HD radio folks bash DX'ers as being outmoded, but when they start having coverage issues - out comes a who bag of tricks from DX'ers. The only problem is - people will discover the REAL stations hidden between stations: i.e. signals from other markets. And they will sound a lot better than undersampled mono HD2 and HD3 streams!

I listen to Scott Sloan WLW almost every night from Maryland - well, if the FCC approves IBOC for nighttime, no more Sloany ! I might just email a suggestion to him to discuss HD Radio/IBOC, and see how he is going to feel losing most of his fringe audience !

 

[zumahans]

He'll tell you to listen on XM.

 

[wgliradio]

The Grundig crank radio is a real piece of junk - I bought an S350 from RS, but returned it, because of the VERY poor quality (hope, you don't have one), and having an analog tuner, it still drifted with its kludged lock mechanism. Grundigs used to be made in Germany, but are now made in China - Grundig should be embarrassed for putting its name on this junk. The S350 is way over-hyped, as my $25 RS PLL receiver gets just as good reception.

The Grundig S350 is poor. It suffers from high noise on AM... the wideband mode is hardly that, the FM is very clippy and the audio "line out" jacks don't have enough juice to properly drive consumer grade devices much less a pro level unit.

I really think that radios like the S350 and GE SRIII suffer from too much hype. Even the GE SR I&II had issues (the SR has always had a noisy floor on AM and the audio on the FM was always very clippy). These radios are not that good. It's nearly impossible to find a really GOOD radio today and that is sad.

 

[wgliradio]

Re: "700" - here's my high quality AM receiver roundup...

“700”... Seems you like AM a lot (me too)... So here’s the best from my arsenal of quality AM receivers:

The Icom R-71 “digital” AM-SW receiver with accessory 15khz (7.5 audio) IF filter installed, standard 5 and 2khz filters available – PBT at 1khz intervals on E-SSB (1988) THE ULTIMATE in AM station reception (but not audio quality). Icom builds for the "DXer" - not the "audiophile". I have used this radio with two antennas: (1) a custom outdoor 70-ft horizontal longwire w/matching Xformer to 50-ohm balanced input... and (2) The C Crane tuned and amplified Ferrite bar antenna usable indoors near a window. AWESOME in every respect. AM dream come true for RECEPTION! The best DX receiver!

Carver TX-11B (1987)... A VERY HIGH QUALITY AM AUDIO tuner 7.5/15 khz (NRSC de-emph select) “digital” tuner... MUST have an EXTERNAL antenna. EXCEPTIONAL AM audio quality... Suitable for AM transmitter monitoring in wideband mode. Best fed with a longwire or C-Crane ferrite antenna. DX – forget it... This tuner was designed for “hi-fi AM” listening only!

ORIGINAL 1980 GE SuperRadio portable. Awesome AM reception and audio quality all by itself, but no coverage beyond @1640khz. Analog-tuned. Very good “DX receiver”.

THE Denon AM-FM “NRSC“ digitally-tuned tuner (1989)... Two bandwidths with an NRSC “limit” of 9.6 khz. Reasonable sensitivity on AM and FM from the supplied antennas – vastly improved with above antennas, yet NO overloading. VERY GOOD audio on “local” and “regional” stations. Not a preferable DX receiver – too wide a bandwidrh – designed for “quality” listening on AM (THANK GOD).. Considering the “AM audio tradeoff “– this is the best!

Nakamichi Clock Radio 1 (1989)... By itself – only “so-so” on AM, but stand a Terk “AM Advantage” antenna behind it, and it becomes a “hot” receiver with VERY GOOD AM station audio quality. Not a DX choice, but will deliver EVERY AM you'd elect to listen to.

McIntosh MR-78... Very good sounding and performing AM-FM home component tuner. Equal sensitivity across the 540-1600 band – no X-band. Two bandwidths – “High” is very good “fi” but requires a strong signal to surpass the circuit noise in the receiver. A great “living room” radio for "locals", but not helped a lot by an external antenna.

Radio Shack Realistic STA-65B – an RS home receiver with 32 watts-per-channel on the market in 1970 (my first stereo). Very good FM (for that era) and AM. AM was STILL important back then, and this product performed well on that band – very good sensitivity and good-sounding “round” 6khz bandwidth audio. Built-in “tuned” ferrite bar antenna with TRUE capacitor tuning (sliding metal “fingers”) yielded very good reception – could be improved GREATLY (with NO overload) by an external antenna described above. THE BEST home AM music receiver at that time for fine contemporary AM listening. Find a music station now, and you'll like this tuner!

So you AM lovers "go for it"... Buy your C Crane antennas and hit eBay for these old receivers, then find a music station - and ENJOY!

I'll add

Sony ICF-S10MK2: Great on AM.. just check this out:
http://www.radiointel.com/review-sonys10mk2.htm
It's only problem is that it's cheaply made, but for $9, you can buy enough of them to last you 20 years.

Realistic 12-650: Probably the first RS Super Radio clone from the early-mid 1980's... right down to the ON/OFF button on top and the placement of the BAND and AFC switches.... As far as audio quality and the AM band, they get it right (the AM is actually slightly wider than the SR, the noise floor is alot lower... almost impossible to believe... and the audio quality on both bands blows the doors off the Super Radio, which had a very clippy sounding amplifier). The FM is not as good with reception (sloppy in high RF areas), but the audio is quite good.

Centrex/Pioneer RK-888: Pretty hot AM... great sounding FM. Good all around radio with a fantastic audio section... typical late 1970's quality build... one of the favorites I own (over the last few years, the FM section has started to fail and I need to probably look around inside and start to see if I can repair it... the AGC circuit doesn't lock anymore. I picked up another a few months ago).

Sony CFS-W501: As bad as it is on FM, it's just the opposite on AM. One of the few portable PLL boom-box radios that I've ever own that splits the uprights just right. A strong performer.

Sony SRF-M37V: Another "ignore the FM for the AM". Best AM walkman. Just to show the difference, the similar in size and price SRF-M85V "sports" walkman is a horror on both AM & FM.

Sangean DT 200V: Good AM, Great FM. Best FM walkman I have ever owned. Have one of these with the SRF-M37V and you've got AM & FM covered.

Many of the Panasonic Tec series portables were really good on both bands... some better than others. The DX-440, mentioned earlier, had a great AM while it worked, there were some issues with the design where the AM/SW would just start to go deaf. Had to have it repaired at RS and they couldn't keep it sound. I finally gave up and used it for FM only before it totally died

A friend of mine has the Kaito KA1102. It is impressive on FM and strong on AM, I wish the audio quality was a little better. AM is very strong but the radio has a very overactive AGC circuit which makes listening tough.

Best AM I've ever heard in a home receiver was a black Rotel with this really cool hot white display. This was with the attached AM antenna. I wish I remembered the model number... vintage early 80's.

 

[700WLW]

"Sony ICF-S10MK2: Great on AM.. just check this out:
http://www.radiointel.com/review-sonys10mk2.htm
It's only problem is that it's cheaply made, but for $9, you can buy enough of them to last you 20 years."

That's my attitude, too - I bought three RS model 12-898 PLL AM/FM radios (now discontinued) on clearance for $25, although, it is really good quality and definately not a throw-away radio. After my dismal experience with the S350, in comparison, I found my RS radio and the car radio to be just as capable DX'ers. It is surprising that the Sony ICF-S10MK2 is a capable DX'er, being a vertical radio less than three inches across, so with a small internal ferrite-bar antenna - the size of the ferrite-bar seems to have less affect, than all they hype would suggest. I opened up both my RS and S350 radios (they were not sealed) and found that my RS radio has about a three-inch bar and the S350 about eight inches - doesn't seem to matter that much. Interesting, that particular clock radios and boom-boxes turn out to be very capable DX'ers. DXing was really great last night from Maryland - WLW, WWL, and WHO all sounded like local stations and there were, I believe, snippets of KOA, because they were talking about the Denver Broncos !

"What is the most sensitive AM/FM radio"

http://groups.google.com/group/rec....6f3f752760fd1?lnk=raot&hl=en#d066f3f752760fd1