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Direct to channel digital exciter recommendation

8

80s Rocker

Guest
We’re in the market for a direct to channel digital FM exciter. No immediate plans for HD. Currently have a Harris Digit CD and numerous attempts to run AES through it have proved unsuccessful in terms of audio quality. We’re currently considering any of the following:

BE FXi-60
Continental 802Ex
Harris FlexStar (hoping they’ve improved the digital interface)
Nautel tells us the M50 is going away and we’re not interested in the VS300.

In terms of audio quality with an AES feed and reliability, what are your recommendations?

Budget is $8K

Thank you in advance,
Brian
 
One consideration is that both major transmitter manufacturers, --Nautel and BE, --have gone to integrated digital exciters in their lower power transmitters (the Nautel VS series through 2.5k, the BE LPX series through 5K).

Both designs allow patching around the built in-exciter, but A) you're already getting the exciter with the transmitter and b) you'll need a heft attenuator to feed your existing exciter into the transmitter. (The BE, for example, wants to see 100 mw of drive).

If you are looking down the road towards a transmitter replacement you may want to keep this in mind.
 
Someone told me the Flexstar has the same problem as the Digit, and will overshoot with Omnia or Optimods (85-8600) due to the high frequency engery beyond 16 kHz. BTW, the Digit is not direct carrier generated. It uses up-conversion. The problem with the Digit is the the 32 khz base sample rate and inferior digtial audio components. The interface boxes that attached to the back of the unit were nothing but junk. I won't even mention the overshoot limiter used in the Digit :-\ There are many Harrris transmtiters out there with Nautel or Continental exciters in them, and the Digits in storage. Let us know what you go with and how it performs.
 
Continental is the first choice, FX series is second. Nautel would of been second, but you said it wasn't a consideration. If you have no desire for HD,and are just gonna do analog, look around for an 802D. But put it on a good ups... boot time is long.
 
I do know this about the Digits. You want to use the analog composite input (if it has one) and not their digital input. It'll sound better IMHO.
 
Thank you for the replies and suggestions. When we purchased our Digit, it was between the BE FXi-60 and the Digit CD. The sales guy we were working with at the time must have had a quota to fill on Harris as he practically told us the BE was junk and the Harris was everything. Our first impression/regret with the Digit was a trip back to IL for a PLL issue after only 10 hours run-time. Our second regret was nearly 20% overshoot with AES from our O-6. We later tried with an 8500 and while better (less overshoot) the audio still sounded like low bit rate mp3 quality (actually sounded better using the backup comp input). We eventually switched over to the full analog I/O and got much better sound and solved the overshoot problem. We actually modified the analog I/O by lifting the 600 ohm comp input termination (Orban recommends 1K minimum) and replaced the surface mount ne5532's with OP275's (fun). While this helped, the sound has still never been quite right to our ears. Long story short, we're finally fed up enough that we're looking at replacing it.

I wanted to touch on the direct-to-channel vs. upconversion. In terms of audio quality, how much real world difference is there between the two?

Just found out today that the Continental 802E is beyond our $8K budget. So it's down to the FlexStar or FXi-60. We were also looking at the Nautel M50, but they tell us it's going away and recommended the VS300. While certainly a great value, we're concerned about the audio quality and don't need anywhere near 300 watts out. We did locate a used 802D and are checking into that as well. If there are other models we should consider, please let us know.

Thanks again,
Brian
 
Let me start with my position as a digital luddite. Though I like my digital processors.

The more conversions, the more artifacts. The less conversions, the less artifacts.

On the VS-300. Believe the price would be in your budget range--you might want to see if Nautel can let you try one. The one problem I can see is the minimum power level it will operate at....that is, whether it can be adjusted downward far enough so as not to overdrive your transmitter.

What kind of transmitter are you using now?
 
They must be low on leftover M50's now since I got an email just a couple of weeks ago saying this was the last chance to purchase one as a backup (a station I contract for has one in a V5). Based on how good the M50 sounds with both an O6 or even with the backup 8100/XT I would wholeheartedly recommend a Nautel exciter-either an M50 if you could locate one or the VS300 if it fits the budget. I'd love to get an M50 as a backup but there's no budget for it so the backup remains the trusty old FX30 which is not a bad sounding exciter despite it's age and in fact, several of us preferred it's sound over a borrowed Digit we used briefly.
 
I agree the fewer conversions the better. We're all digital up to the processor and the crappy digital interface on the Digit prevents us from running digital strait to the modulator for only one D/A conversion - something I'm hoping we're able to do (properly) with the new exciter. Current transmitter is an older BE rig requiring about 18 watts from the exciter.

I'm not sure how recent the VS300 actually is...does anyone have actual experience with it? We got quoted just under $5K (about half the cost of an M50). Nautel tells us it specs same or better than the M50, just seems almost too good to be true...

Also, what are your thoughts on the FlexStar? Like the 3 year warranty...but are they any good (or any better than the Digit)? When requesting a quote for the FXi-60 we were told the FlexStar was "way more advanced". Any truth to this?

Thanks,
Brian
 
Are you running HD? If not, I would think the FlexStar would be a waste. Again, all of my HD projects have been either Nautel or BE, but the Digit CD is still listed on the Harris website as the main analog (digital) exciter. Everyone I know stayed away from Harris stuff because of the poor customer service, etc, from the last ten years. Unless the FlexStar has a base sample rate greater than 32 kHz, the latest processors from Omnia and Optimod will overshoot. They both take advantage of modern low pass filters, much different than the steep 15 kHz ones in early digital designs. Anything beyond the Nyquist of 16 kHz in the Harris Digit, and overshoots will happen. I would assume you have the audio processor at the studio? If so, you should consider moving it to the transmitter. The composite generated from the Omnia or Optimod is a much tighter and efficient spectrum than using an exciters on-board stereo generator. What you get with the composite output is pilot and upper spectrum filtering. Exciter manufactures are not experts at generating FM composite, which is what is ultimately transmitted to the analog FM radio. They are best left at building RF amplifiers. I always choose to let either Optimod or Omnia create the composite.

80s Rocker said:
I agree the fewer conversions the better. We're all digital up to the processor and the crappy digital interface on the Digit prevents us from running digital strait to the modulator for only one D/A conversion - something I'm hoping we're able to do (properly) with the new exciter. Current transmitter is an older BE rig requiring about 18 watts from the exciter.

I'm not sure how recent the VS300 actually is...does anyone have actual experience with it? We got quoted just under $5K (about half the cost of an M50). Nautel tells us it specs same or better than the M50, just seems almost too good to be true...

Also, what are your thoughts on the FlexStar? Like the 3 year warranty...but are they any good (or any better than the Digit)? When requesting a quote for the FXi-60 we were told the FlexStar was "way more advanced". Any truth to this?

Thanks,
Brian
 
While both the Nautel and BE sales sheets make a big deal about having a stereo geni in their exciter/low power transmitters (Nautel will also sell you an add-on module which is the guts of an Orban processor), suspect some of this is for overseas consumption.

Both the VS series and the BE LPX series provide for conventional composite inputs as well as AES digital feeds.

I suspect the VS-300 could probably be cranked down to 20 watts to drive the existing transmitter; while leaving some reserve for emergencies. At around $5K, that leaves some bucks to invest in a reducer from 1 5/8ths or 3 1/8th EIA fitting down to an "N." Nice thing to have on the shelf if you arrive at the transmitter site after a thunderstorm & smell the wonderful aroma of burnt plate transformer. That "unused" 280 watts comes in handy then.
 
TomT said:
Nice thing to have on the shelf if you arrive at the transmitter site after a thunderstorm & smell the wonderful aroma of burnt plate transformer. That "unused" 280 watts comes in handy then.

Yea, those are hard on the ole back to replace, not to mention heavy ;)
 
If you don't need AES inputs, the Marti ME 40 is a solid performer at about 1/2 the price of the other offerings.

No fancy screens or bells and whistles, but it's simple and sounds good. I've used them in various situations with various transmitters as both a main and standby and they just work.
 
If your looking for sound quality the jury is not out yet as far as I am concerned with the VS series. There may be something to the phrase "less is more". The VS sounds harsh and busy to my ears. I'm beginning to wonder whether the old simple varactor based modulated oscillators sound better to the ears due to their shear simplicity of operation. With the dual loop times everyone uses these days bass is not a problem anymore. The direct to channel fully digital concept looks great on paper (and steady state tests) however I can't help but wonder whether the complexity leads to dynamic distortions that are hard to measure but the ears can detect. SID and TIM was around annoyingly for quite awhile until they were finally acknowledged.

It is hard to beat the price of the low power VS boxes and they offer very high power conversion efficiency. I would be interested in other comments on the VS sound. Maybe the boxes are so clean the rest of the chain is no longer masked by the exciter. I don't think that is the case as there are many stations out there with pristine audio that are running analog varactor exciters.

The only experience I have with the VS is feeding it composite directly from an 8500. Maybe I'm hearing artifacts from the 8500 composite I never heard before due to masking from the exciter. The rest of the chain is really clean as can be audibly verified though headphones and studio monitors.
 
Sound quality is really what we're after. I guess we're looking for the long term stability of a digital exciter and the audio quality of a properly designed dual speed analog exciter. We're not running HD and have no immediate plans for it. On paper, the idea of keeping everything digital to the modulator looks like it should provide us the highest quality. The audio eventually has to become analog anyway so why not do it once, right to channel at the modulator...we're starting to realize in a perfect world this would be the case, in the real world it's not that simple. Looking at various digital exciter specs seems to show the analog composite input as the highest performer (not the AES as we would expect). From an audio quality standpoint, are we indeed better off feeding analog composite vs. AES to the exciter (regardless of manu) despite the additional D/A conversions or should we keep it AES all the way?

Many thanks for the helpful info thus far,
Brian
 
Composite from studio would be my preference, but, as I mention above, I am a digital Luddite. Realize, too, that with clusters in awkward locations (for STL hops), some stations need to be fed by alternative--i.e.-digital feeds.

Interesting about the VS, I had considered a VS for a back-up, but bought a BE STX 1 kw. instead because I can add boxes later to get the 5 kw we need. (3800 watts into a 2 bay). Wasn't that crazy, with either model, about using the built in exciters. Especially since I just bought a new Continental 802B. However, both allow bypassing the built in exciters, albeit with a heavily padded (20 db) signal for an external 10 drive.
 
There are a few items I’d wish to clarify earlier in the string, and make a recommendation and offer.

There was an overshoot issue on our early digital i/o’s. Specifically, prior to 2000, the Digit digital i/o had an aggressive 15khz roll-off filter for pilot protection, and early Omnia’s had a harmonic content from clipping that passed through their very wide band output. Omnia’s peak management, when used with the sharp cutoff filters in the Digit’s AES3 input, resulted in peak overmodulation, again, an issue with their peak control.

At that time, 3/16/2000, Harris opened up the filter in the DSP, U10, a socketed IC in the Digital i/o, Digit part number 917-2335-036, DigitCD part number 917-2335-042, to 17.5 khz, providing a wider input window with part number 917-2335-050, to make it compatible with Omnia audio processors. This information has been available in the Harris service department by simply calling 12172228200 or via email at [email protected].

Since that date, the bandwidth limiting of the audio input to 15 khz needs to be accomplished in the audio processor, to protect the stereo pilot at 19 khz .

The performance of the DigitCD stereo generator is typical of a Digital Signal Processor and does use a single upconversion of the direct digital modulator to the FM carrier frequency, i.e. -94 dB mono/composite SNR, -83 dB STEREO SNR, -65 dB audio separation, -60 dB AM sync noise floor, and 0.005% stereo THD, setting the global standard for many years as the most popular exciter ever built. However, while the stereo generator has excellent performance, the clipper should not be used to increase loudness, and only is an absolute modulation limiter, as the tradeoff between loudness and IMD is poor. Such compression is better achieved through use of an external stereo generator, composite output, and composite clipper; which makes the analog composite input version of the i/o module a better tradeoff, as it has higher performance than the digital i/o in analog backup mode. As for the subject of use of 32 khz AES audio input, the maximum frequency audio output is half the sample rate, or in other words, 32 khz AES is adequate for audio frequencies up to 16 khz, which is adequate for analog FM audio, which must be limited to 15 khz.

In the case of using a higher AES audio bitrate, for example single AES sourcing of both an HD and analog exciter, the Digit/DigitCD digital i/o down converts to 32 khz.
In HD Radio compatible exciters such as Flexstar, the HD Radio AES3 sampling rate is separate and handled by the Importer/Exporter and has nothing to do with the AES3 sampling rate for analog stereo.

As for Flexstar exciters, this is a direct to channel FM exciter, with yet even higher audio performance, for example Stereo SNR at -85 dB. Flexstar exciters have an audio low pass filter that is selectable via the front panel between bypass, 15khz, and 17khz. Both provide excellent pilot protection, however the 17 khz filter is wider. The Flexstar also has a digital composite limiter with adjustable level and attack time.

When the Flexstar was first introduced, the default setting was bypass, and there were a couple reports of pilot stability and or interference, resolved with proper filter settings.

My advice, if you decide to purchase a Flexstar, go with the up charge and order one with the optional low level 10 mw output. This will allow you to drive a second cabinet from this exciter, should you later have a power increase and add another amplifier cabinet or implement HD Radio.

In my personal opinion, having factory and field tested and commissioned nearly 200-300 Digit exciters alone, prior to direct to channel exciters today, at the hayday of the Digit/DigitCD, head to head with the Continental exciter, Continental’s performance was only just below Digit but comparable (so was the price at that time), DigitCD set the industry standard for performance for many years, the Flexstar sounds significantly better than even the DigitCD. We offer a free demo, should you wish to try it first.
 
tlc - So what you're saying is if we purchased a digital I/O for our Digit CD today, it would allow us an AES feed without the poor audio and overshoot issues that plauged earlier versions? I would certainly hope so, as we just got quoted nearly $2.4K for a new Digital I/O (dealer offered us $2.5K for the entire exciter on trade, BTW). FWIW Harris should've made this clearer (techs/dealer knew nothing back when we had the AES overshoot/audio quality issues - recommended switch to Analog I/O) and maybe offered a discounted upgrade to the corrected Digital I/O. Also, if I understand correctly from your post, the FlexStar is an upgrade over the Digit CD in terms of audio quality and is able to handle AES correctly and without compromise?

Thanks,
Brian
 
TLC,
I don't want to re-hash ten year old topics, but your post has stimulated a few questions that Harris should answer. It would appear that you work for Harris. I personally conducted many U10 upgrades circa 2002-2004, but found them only to be a slight band-aid. The original Omnia FM, and now the Omnia 6, Optimod 8500, 8600 will still overshoot with the U10 upgrade. True, widening the filter helped some, but the peak control is nowhere near the same as the composite input. It was a disappointment to users who wanted a straight digital path. Harris did not listen to people such as Frank Foti and others who knew exactly what the problem was. The real problem remains the sample rate of the Digit. The down sample to 32kHz in regards to the Nyquist cannot be overcome with a change in low pass filtering.

All of those years in production Harris never offered an option or upgrade with the Digit CD to a higher base sample rate. The answer was always replacing U10. With that being said, the FlexStar is offered in analog only with no HD support. Tell us what the base sample rate is for the AES input of the FlexStar. You have already told us the low pass filter is selectable to 15 or 17. Again, what is the base sample rate? I think the original poster is using an Omnia 6 and a Digit CD. The Digit CD with the U10 upgrade will help, but will not solve his problem. He is considering upgrading to a FlexStar. Thanks

tlc said:
There are a few items I’d wish to clarify earlier in the string, and make a recommendation and offer.

There was an overshoot issue on our early digital i/o’s. Specifically, prior to 2000, the Digit digital i/o had an aggressive 15khz roll-off filter for pilot protection, and early Omnia’s had a harmonic content from clipping that passed through their very wide band output. Omnia’s peak management, when used with the sharp cutoff filters in the Digit’s AES3 input, resulted in peak overmodulation, again, an issue with their peak control.

At that time, 3/16/2000, Harris opened up the filter in the DSP, U10, a socketed IC in the Digital i/o, Digit part number 917-2335-036, DigitCD part number 917-2335-042, to 17.5 khz, providing a wider input window with part number 917-2335-050, to make it compatible with Omnia audio processors. This information has been available in the Harris service department by simply calling 12172228200 or via email at [email protected].

Since that date, the bandwidth limiting of the audio input to 15 khz needs to be accomplished in the audio processor, to protect the stereo pilot at 19 khz .

The performance of the DigitCD stereo generator is typical of a Digital Signal Processor and does use a single upconversion of the direct digital modulator to the FM carrier frequency, i.e. -94 dB mono/composite SNR, -83 dB STEREO SNR, -65 dB audio separation, -60 dB AM sync noise floor, and 0.005% stereo THD, setting the global standard for many years as the most popular exciter ever built. However, while the stereo generator has excellent performance, the clipper should not be used to increase loudness, and only is an absolute modulation limiter, as the tradeoff between loudness and IMD is poor. Such compression is better achieved through use of an external stereo generator, composite output, and composite clipper; which makes the analog composite input version of the i/o module a better tradeoff, as it has higher performance than the digital i/o in analog backup mode. As for the subject of use of 32 khz AES audio input, the maximum frequency audio output is half the sample rate, or in other words, 32 khz AES is adequate for audio frequencies up to 16 khz, which is adequate for analog FM audio, which must be limited to 15 khz.

In the case of using a higher AES audio bitrate, for example single AES sourcing of both an HD and analog exciter, the Digit/DigitCD digital i/o down converts to 32 khz.
In HD Radio compatible exciters such as Flexstar, the HD Radio AES3 sampling rate is separate and handled by the Importer/Exporter and has nothing to do with the AES3 sampling rate for analog stereo.

As for Flexstar exciters, this is a direct to channel FM exciter, with yet even higher audio performance, for example Stereo SNR at -85 dB. Flexstar exciters have an audio low pass filter that is selectable via the front panel between bypass, 15khz, and 17khz. Both provide excellent pilot protection, however the 17 khz filter is wider. The Flexstar also has a digital composite limiter with adjustable level and attack time.

When the Flexstar was first introduced, the default setting was bypass, and there were a couple reports of pilot stability and or interference, resolved with proper filter settings.

My advice, if you decide to purchase a Flexstar, go with the up charge and order one with the optional low level 10 mw output. This will allow you to drive a second cabinet from this exciter, should you later have a power increase and add another amplifier cabinet or implement HD Radio.

In my personal opinion, having factory and field tested and commissioned nearly 200-300 Digit exciters alone, prior to direct to channel exciters today, at the hayday of the Digit/DigitCD, head to head with the Continental exciter, Continental’s performance was only just below Digit but comparable (so was the price at that time), DigitCD set the industry standard for performance for many years, the Flexstar sounds significantly better than even the DigitCD. We offer a free demo, should you wish to try it first.
 
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