Do music stations do this better than we do?

[Holland Cooke]

I have talked with LOTS of listeners lately, collecting verbatims on another subject.

But something else came up...often: the importance of announcing dial position.

Certainly, WE would all like listeners to think call letters, the station's "name."
But many only reference stations by frequency numbers, the stations's "address."
Mercifully short example: http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=xXPi7VnEQ9g

Do music stations do this better than News/Talk stations?

It's always humbling to sit-behind-the-mirror, observing a focus group who self-identified as P1s or P2s, and hear 'em transpose stations' call letters and dial positions.

Because RDS only works on FM stations, we can't count on a dashboard display reminding high-TSL in-car users of an AM station's address.

More dial position -- and less growling sloganeering by the Central Casting promoman voice -- could make station imaging more-relatable "listener language."

HC
www.HollandCooke.com

 

[MikefromDelaware]

I think you make a good point. When I was working at 1450 WILM newsradio in Wilmington DE, people I'd meet out somewhere would tell me they liked my talk show, but more often than not they'd get the calls confused with our cross town rival 1150 WDEL. They'd say that they really enjoyed hearing my show on 1450 WDEL. They'd get the frequency correct, but would quite often mix up the call letters. Obviously, they listen to both stations at various times and can remember the number where they can find the show they like, especially now with digital tuners, they see 1450 when tuning in to WILM or 1150 when tuning in to WDEL. Just as with television, most viewers think of channel 3, channel 12, not KYW-TV channel 3, or WHYY-TV channel 12. I guess that is a problem when people are filling out the Arbitron books, I'm assuming that Arbitron wants them to write WILM not 1450. They might get more reliable rating info by using 1450 rather than WILM. Of course the problem with this is when two station on the same frequency can be received in the same ratings market, an example: In New Castle County we have two FM stations on the same frequency that come in depending where you are in your county. An example would be 94.5 WDAC Lancaster (a Christian station) and 94.5 from Trenton that I believe is oldies. In the North Wilmington area 94.5 Trenton comes in, in NewCastle, Newark it's a different story, in these towns 94.5 Lancaster comes in. Same sort of thing with WHYY-FM at 90.9 and a 90.9 NPR station in Washington DC. Towards Newark, sometimes the DC NPR station comes in over top the Philly NPR station both at 90.9.

It does seem that FM stations do use their numbers better than AM. Even talk FM. An example is WHYY-FM, they usually refer to themselves as 91FM (their frequency is 90.9) rather than WHYY-FM. It seems that the music stations on FM do this as well. A few years ago, on of the last AM stations in the area that still had music on it rarely used their calls, but did go by AM1290. Today they are a sports talk station that calls itself AM1290 The Ticket.

I remember about 30-35 years ago, when WDEL shortened their frequency from 1150 to radio 115. Their id would be something like WDEL Wilmington radio 115. They eventually went back to 1150.

 

[RobertAnthony]

WICC for years used "WICC 60" as an imaging motto as well as the classic "Service 6". They have recently gone through 600 WICC and WICC 600. It's just those calls that get stuck in the head.

 

[Al Johnson]

Who cares? Arbitron counts frequencies entered in diaries. If somebody writes down the frequency, they count it.

If talk stations have a problem with this, they should stop branding themselves by frequency. What music stations do more and do better is to give themselves nick names (which apparently some diary-keepers find easier to remember and to keep straight). Talk stations don't do this at all (I'm trying to think of a talker with a nick name and I'm drawing a blank). When talkers do use a brand, it's often very generic and includes the frequency (like Newsradio 88). Sometimes talkers use a slogan but they never have anything as succinct or catchy as "Mix" or "Magic."

Mr. Cooke, you get paid for this sort of thing. Name those stations.

And now I know more about Delaware rim-shots than I ever wanted to know. I'm still not sure what the point was.

In any case, when PPMs come in, this whole subject is moot.

 

[radiophiler]

I can think of one branded talk station: 1210 WPHT in Philadelphia, "The Big Talker."

It didn't work out, but Free FM was an example of a branded talk radio station.

I wonder if the few talk stations that use names like "The Zone" get better diary recall.

One of the benefits of a "sing-able" jingle: people remember you. Another Philadelphia example "K-Y-W, Newsradio, 10-60." (Those of you familiar can probably sing the jingle.) And, if listeners refer to the station by only one of the following, call letters, slogan (newsradio) or frequency, they usually refer to "KYW."

Wilmington, in my opinion, was confusing for some listeners because one talk station spells the state, WDEL, and one spells the city, WILM. The moving back and forth of certain syndicated talk shows and local personalities probably doesn't help, either (Rush started on WILM, went to WDEL, is back on WILM, a popular news anchor started on WILM, is now on WDEL, etc.).

 

[Holland Cooke]

"when PPMs come in, this whole subject is moot."

And the rollercoaster ride begins NOW, in Philadelphia and Houston.
Strap-in.

Although...

Data that Arbitron VP Gary Marince and KYW Director of News & Programming presented in my RTNDA session in Las Vegas in April affirms that awareness will continue to drive use.

And most markets won't be PPM'd for a long time, many never.

So it all comes back to name-and-address.

Arbitron counts frequencies entered in diaries. If somebody writes down the frequency, they count it.

My point precisely.
Make sure listeners know your frequency, and associate it with your call letters.

Mr. Cooke, you get paid for this sort of thing.

Yahmon.
http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=23Bobc0_8ok

 

[Al Johnson]

You touch on an important and over-looked issue. Confusion. People often don't know what they are listening to. As noted on the DC board, some people listening to WTWP still think they are listening to WTOP.

Talk personalities playing music chairs, moving back and forth among local stations, can create confusion. Talk listeners often identify more with the personality than the station. With a few exceptions, personality-driven radio is gone from music stations but it is the basis of much of talk radio.

In addition, confusion can be tied to the geriatric nature of large portions of the talk radio audience. And judging by some of the spots most often heard on talk radio, talk listeners are not too bright or well educated. A lot of talk radio advertisers are clearly targeting the lower end of the socio-economic and educational scales.

 

[KevinFodor]

But yet, most stations (including talkers) are identified in Arbitron diaries by frequency, not by call letters
or host names.

And, advertisers would do better if they would target their ads to the station, not the "market" or "region".
Listeners aren't that dumb. They simply hear lots of poorly conceived, mediocrely produced spots which become "wallpaper" after several hearings. Target the format, target the station and you target the listener.

One of my more "memorable" and somewhat more creative takes on spots are the ones currently airing by
Garman GPS systems targeting talk radio by saying "Sometimes, even a conservative has to occasionally, turn left." If they are doing a similar ad on LibTalk ("Sometimes, even a liberal has to occasionally, turn right."), they are being very smart with their ads.

 

[MikefromDelaware]

If talk stations have a problem with this, they should stop branding themselves by frequency. What music stations do more and do better is to give themselves nick names (which apparently some diary-keepers find easier to remember and to keep straight). Talk stations don't do this at all (I'm trying to think of a talker with a nick name and I'm drawing a blank). When talkers do use a brand, it's often very generic and includes the frequency (like Newsradio 88). Sometimes talkers use a slogan but they never have anything as succinct or catchy as "Mix" or "Magic."

The sports talk station in Wilmington goes by the name "AM1290-The Ticket". You do bring up a good question, what would be some good names for talk stations, like WPHT's The Big Talker. Maybe WDEL in Wilmington and WBAL in Baltimore both are doing only local talk during the day could call themselves "Live and Local 1150 WDEL" or "Live and Local 1090 WBAL". Or if they have a sense of humor, they could call themselves "Local Yokel 1150 WDEL" or "WBAL is local yokel radio for Baltimore".

 

[Holland Cooke]

"Local"

Hey, don't laugh.

After mega-owners have gutted programming post-consolidation, "local" is tantamount to a benefit statement...UNLESS what's-local is boring, i.e., arcane minutes-of-the-meeting Les Nessman-type stories.

 

[Al Johnson]

Re: "Local"

Hey, don't laugh.

After mega-owners have gutted programming post-consolidation, "local" is tantamount to a benefit statement...UNLESS what's-local is boring, i.e., arcane minutes-of-the-meeting Les Nessman-type stories.

You have to laugh because it hurts too much to cry.

Local is boring is the rule, not the exception (as implied by your "UNLESS"). "Arcane minutes of the meeting Les Nessman-type stories" nails almost all local-live radio. Local-live stations put on anything that passes for local because "local" is the only way they can differentiate themselves. Different ain't necessarily good.

Let's face it, in most markets outside the top 50, not much is happening (at least not much outside the realm of the arcane).

Most stations went to syndication partly because it's cheaper. And partly because it sounds better to listeners than what "local" stations ever did themselves. Anybody who grew up in a major market, and never took a cross-country car trip, doesn't appreciate how much really bad radio there used to be before syndication. The crime is not syndicated radio in small and medium markets; it's major market stations with the resources to do good local-live radio who cop out and go satellite. The aforementioned "Big Talker" is Exhibit A.

 

[MikefromDelaware]

Examples of local yokels who on some days have an interesting show:

WDEL's Al Messitti's show is good on some days and boring on others. Depends on what he's discussing. I enjoy his show more when he's discussing the major issues (national) rather than many of the "big" issues in Dover (where Delaware's legislature meets and supposedly represents the good citizens of the First State). Sometimes a Delaware issue will be interesting, but more often than not, it's not, especially for three hours.

WHYY-FM's Radio Times with Marty Moss Cohan (sp) can be quite interesting, again, when she has interesting guests discussing national issues rather than Philly issues, which are a bore, to my ear.

The one major plus to local yokel talk radio, is if you want to voice an opinion, you can get on in a fairly quick manner (10-20 minutes) where as try to get on a national show and you may be on hold for over an hour, and that's assuming you can get past the call screener.

 

[Al Johnson]

Examples of local yokels who on some days have an interesting show:

WDEL's Al Messitti's show is good on some days and boring on others. Depends on what he's discussing. I enjoy his show more when he's discussing the major issues (national) rather than many of the "big" issues in Dover (where Delaware's legislature meets and supposedly represents the good citizens of the First State). Sometimes a Delaware issue will be interesting, but more often than not, it's not, especially for three hours.

WHYY-FM's Radio Times with Marty Moss Cohan (sp) can be quite interesting, again, when she has interesting guests discussing national issues rather than Philly issues, which are a bore, to my ear.

The one major plus to local yokel talk radio, is if you want to voice an opinion, you can get on in a fairly quick manner (10-20 minutes) where as try to get on a national show and you may be on hold for over an hour, and that's assuming you can get past the call screener.

Moss-Coane.

You've put your finger on a big part of the problem: Local issues often don't have much sizzle and local guests often don't have much pizzaz. "Yokel" shows are more often done for the benefit of people who want to be on the radio than for people who listen to the radio.

And the caller issue is part of the problem, too. Here again, the show is for listeners; not callers. About one per cent of talk radio listeners have ever (EVER) called in.

"Yokel" shows often suffer from the afflictions of:

(1) No callers, with hosts begging for somebody to call, or rambling on desperately trying to find something to say that will provoke callers.

(2) Professional callers. The "usual suspects." People who have some axe to grind and keep calling to grind it. Or people who have nothing to say and time on their hands who call the host to "help."

(3) People who want to talk about something else. Especially a problem if the show has a guest on a particular topic. This can include people who are calling for another show, even a show on another station.

(4) Out of control callers. The host is so relieved to have somebody, anybody, to talk to he lets people go way, too long; even if they have nothing interesting to say or say it badly.

The national shows can be selective. They have lots of callers to choose from. They can pick people who are interesting, articulate and likely to take the show in the direction the host wants it to go. Screeners can prep and pre-interview callers. Quality of callers is more consistent; shows can avoid the "uneven" problem you mentioned.

Before satellite distribution and fiber optic long distance there were not many stations doing talk shows because talk radio is not easy to do well. And it's not cheap to do well.

 

[MikefromDelaware]

Before satellite distribution and fiber optic long distance there were not many stations doing talk shows because talk radio is not easy to do well. And it's not cheap to do well.

Local talk radio has been around since 1949 when Joe Pyne started "It's Your Nickel" on WILM. Many stations over the years have done local talk. Some better than others. The style was different, less political. Rush Limbaugh changed all that and sort of re-invented talk radio. That may be part of the problem today, the listeners have become used to Rush's style of political talk with the musical parody's, etc, and the old style local yokel shows seem boring now for the most part.

 

[Radio_Realist]

Do music stations do this better than we do?

Some do. Some don't.

 

[Al Johnson]

Before satellite distribution and fiber optic long distance there were not many stations doing talk shows because talk radio is not easy to do well. And it's not cheap to do well.

Local talk radio has been around since 1949 when Joe Pyne started "It's Your Nickel" on WILM. Many stations over the years have done local talk. Some better than others. The style was different, less political. Rush Limbaugh changed all that and sort of re-invented talk radio. That may be part of the problem today, the listeners have become used to Rush's style of political talk with the musical parody's, etc, and the old style local yokel shows seem boring now for the most part.

Some stations did local talk. Not many. And what they did was a talk show in a schedule mostly made up of other types of programming. Talk radio as a format did not emerge until the early 60s and then only on a very few major market stations (KABC, KGO, WMCA). The station you mention had a mostly music format until the late 70s.

Elsewhere, including many major markets, political talk radio was limited to maybe one or two shows on one or two stations. These shows were generally interview shows with a guest and questions from callers. The Rush-style call-in show was unique when it began in thew early 80s (and many talk radio "experts" told him he could not do a show without guests). Call-in formats such as swap shop, "Ask Your Neighbor" or "At Your Service" (advice and household hints shows) were far more common. This included WCAU and other CBS-owned stations you may be familiar with, as well as the "heritage" talk stations (many of which continued to play music into the late 70s and positioned themselves as full service, rather than talk). Talk radio began to expand beyond a very limited scope only with the introduction of ABC's Talk Radio Network in 1981 (mostly syndicating shows from long-time talkers KABC and KGO).

For the record, Barry Gray began doing a call-in show on WMCA, New York in 1945, which is generally considered the first such program. Pyne was probably the first to introduce rudeness to talk radio and to insult callers and guests.

 

[MikefromDelaware]

Thanks for the info on Barry Gray at WMCA. Yes Pyne seemed to have that ability to be rude to his callers and guests at least when he was on TV in the 1960's.