Do You Really Care About Radio?

[davideduardo]

One of the unfortunate laws of economics is that the economy will go up and it will go down. You have to cover the down periods.....or else. That is why smart companies will have little to no debt and live below their means.

As the recession proved over a wide range of businesses and industries, there is a degree of economic slow-down that no model and no amount of preparedness can predict.

For the better part of a century, business schools have taught that the way to grow is to use someone else's money as long as your ROI is greater than the cost of money. That is a fundamental part of the American Dream... just as fundamental as the idea of buying a home or even a car and paying for it out of anticipated income.

Just as some wage earners were no longer able to pay for their home, some companies were not able to pay their loans. Some sold out, some used bankruptcy protection, some ceased to exist.

The largest number of such cases in radio lie with folks who had successful radio careers who made the step into ownership with the aid of financing and bought a station or three to have their own business. These are not the Clear Channels and the Citadels... they are Mom and Pop and they are in Big Rapids or Bemidji or Prescott.

I'll take your word for it but the bottom line is.....radio is still in decline. When the man puts the lock on the studio door it really doesn't matter what the worst reason was.

Transmitters and towers are in decline. But radio, via other distribution methods, is not. Pandora now has, per their own estimates backed by research, 7% of the audience... those who make the digital transition will grow. Those who don't will not.

Content, yes. Mobility, not exactly. I doubt alternative distribution methods are going to overcome technical drawbacks any time soon. TCP/IP cannot handle the multitudes of connections. Cell phones cannot handle the thousands of data streams. HD radio, with its many drop outs will seem like nirvana compared to wifi hot spot jumping.

It's funny but of the thousands of interviews dealing with usage in its different forms I have been party to in the last few years, lack of reliability is not a factor. When the subject of drop outs comes up, they say "well, all kinds of radio drop out, like when you go under a bridge or under electric wires..." No perception of wireless being any worse than OTA Radio... and in some case, with people with long commutes or in workplace environments, they feel mobile is better.

OTA - perhaps not. Internet - absolutely. I can point to stations running Internet simulcasts right now that are doing just that. Just like an OTA station geared to twenty-somethings I can get a free ride on the Internet.

My point is that a streamed format that depends on advertising is not going to do any better selling 55+ than an OTA station.

Now....can we please drop the 55+ demo thingy? I fully understand that there is nobody out there, save some medical providers, who want to sell me anything.

Lots of people want to sell you something. However, radio is not a profitable way to sell to 55+, given the increased number of impressions required to make the sale and the cost of delivering those impressions.

It does not matter if the item is a $2.99 McNuggets meal or a $29,999 car.

 

[DavidKaye]

I lived in S.F. and listened to KYA '66-'68 and you would think I would have remembered him but the DJ I remember from those days is Buck Herring (morning guy) instead.

You seem to be the only person who remembers Buck Herring at KYA; I remember him at KEWB. But Johnny Holliday was definitely one of the voices of KYA for several years.

I can't believe that a DJ would necessarily think they were too old to be a radio performer at age 45. Especially after being awarded as "America's number one DJ". I remember seeing photos of DJ's in their later years and being amazed at how old they were but their voices didn't betray them.

I can see where it might freak a guy out to have his own young daughter calling him and requesting a song. That sounds as creepy as neighborhood kids asking a dad to hang out with them.

 

[michael hagerty]

I can't believe that a DJ would necessarily think they were too old to be a radio performer at age 45. Especially after being awarded as "America's number one DJ". I remember seeing photos of DJ's in their later years and being amazed at how old they were but their voices didn't betray them.

I can see where it might freak a guy out to have his own young daughter calling him and requesting a song. That sounds as creepy as neighborhood kids asking a dad to hang out with them.

45 is and was pushing it for a Top 40 DJ. The guys at WABC were exceptions (Ingram and Lundy were 48 when WABC blew up, ...Dr. Don Rose held on to 52 at KFRC...Rick Dees to 53 at KIIS....but very few others I can think of. Some would make a radical change like Holliday and go to a spoken word format like news, talk or sports. But there were more age-appropriate music formats to segue into.

Robert W. Morgan left KHJ for an adult contemporary gig (WIND, Chicago) at age 34...and did it again (leaving K-100 for KMPC) at 39. Charlie Tuna was 32 when KKDJ became KIIS and went AC. He jumped back to KHJ two years later, and to KTNQ a year after that...but from 35 on, it was AC and oldies. The Real Don Steele bailed out of KTNQ, Top 40 and radio as a whole at 41...and when he came back 7 years later, it was to do oldies.

They'd simply aged out of the demo and the audience that enjoyed them most had moved on to other formats.

 

[landtuna]

The first "solo" show by a woman is 9th. Is this the show you refer to as #1

I don't have access to the book so 6+ is the only number I can see. IIRC, my info came from an on-line site some months ago so it may not be current as of the "Christmas season" (which seems to be an anomaly - either positive or negative).

(In any case, I mentioned that mornings were the exception when well done content could be well received... but those are morning shows, not jocks.)

I make no distinction between morning show jocks and other dayparts. I realize there may be a difference in their skill sets and on-air expectations but the only major difference is the amount of banter in between the music.

 

[landtuna]

As the recession proved over a wide range of businesses and industries, there is a degree of economic slow-down that no model and no amount of preparedness can predict.

I will give you that this past recession was much worse than any others in my lifetime, primarily because of the home loan fiasco and the Wall Street cheaters. But looking at America's financial history we go through these recession periods regularly. Whether you are running a home account or a business you need to plan for downturns. Having sufficient cash (or lack of debt) to carry you through is the difference between success and failure.

These are not the Clear Channels and the Citadels... they are Mom and Pop and they are in Big Rapids or Bemidji or Prescott.

And it was the big debt operators that the discussion centered around.

Transmitters and towers are in decline. But radio, via other distribution methods, is not. Pandora now has, per their own estimates backed by research, 7% of the audience... those who make the digital transition will grow. Those who don't will not.

Here is where we part agreement. "Radio", to me, is RF OTA AM, FM, and SW and I'll even throw HD in there too although it is a kluge and not statistically important. Muzak and other in-house audio services are the same as any other satellite-delivered service and although they feature DJ's and music they are not radio. XM/Sirius can mimic the content of OTA radio but it has characteristics that are not traditional radio either. The same holds true for radio-like content delivered over wires, i.e., Internet.

When someone uses the term "radio" to me I am thinking of studios, transmitters and receivers. "Radio", to me, encompasses both content and means of delivery.

It's funny but of the thousands of interviews dealing with usage in its different forms I have been party to in the last few years, lack of reliability is not a factor. When the subject of drop outs comes up, they say "well, all kinds of radio drop out, like when you go under a bridge or under electric wires..." No perception of wireless being any worse than OTA Radio... and in some case, with people with long commutes or in workplace environments, they feel mobile is better.

I've had my new car just two weeks and already have discovered there is no point to tuning HD. The signal has too many drop-outs and the switching between FM and HD is really irritating. That is perhaps the biggest complaint about HD and it seems to happen in a large variety of metro areas. Granted, there are some locations (Houston is one I recall) that seems to have good HD reception probably due to its flat terrain and other characteristics. Mine does not and neither do many others.

And I don't know where your comments are coming from but I have never suffered a drop out with analog FM unless on the very fringes of reception. AM suffers from this moreso than HD but not analog FM.

My point is that a streamed format that depends on advertising is not going to do any better selling 55+ than an OTA station.

And my point was that it doesn't matter since I am virtually invisible as a demo on radio.

 

[landtuna]

I can see where it might freak a guy out to have his own young daughter calling him and requesting a song. That sounds as creepy as neighborhood kids asking a dad to hang out with them.

When I was in my mid-30's I used to team up with dozens of neighborhood kids to play volleyball almost every evening during the summer. Sometimes other parents would join in but mostly it was just me. I never felt "funny" or "weird" and the kids accepted me like they would any other player. Playing volleyball with those kids felt no different than playing baseball with my own kids.

They'd simply aged out of the demo and the audience that enjoyed them most had moved on to other formats.

I can understand if a DJ feels "too old" to participate in the external activities that DJ's used to do but in studio there is only his voice. If you still have the pipes and the interest it doesn't seem that age alone should be a factor. Of course, most people (unlike me) tend to change music genres as they age and if the DJ feels more at home with music intended for his/her age group then no harm done. I don't expect a 50-year old T-40 DJ to act on-air or off like a 20-something would but they would still be respectable doing the music of their generation or MOR or Oldies.

Maybe some of my opinion is colored by the DJ's I listened to growing up. Even as a pre-teen and teenager none of the DJ's were of the "zoo" category. They told jokes and bantered about things that would interest my age group but they weren't pulling pranks or acting MTV "nuts". I would think it would have been much easier for those DJ's to age than the variety of idiots we now have on the youth-oriented stations.

 

[davideduardo]

When someone uses the term "radio" to me I am thinking of studios, transmitters and receivers. "Radio", to me, encompasses both content and means of delivery.

And that is the attitude and belief that will kill traditional radio. "Radio" must move into new distribution channels in response to the desires of listeners.

I have been in a number of Radio Shack stores in two metros in CA and one in AZ in the last year, and the only "radios" they had were those Red Cross branded crank emergency radios. But they had what seemed like 50 different phones... AM is a century old technology. FM is 70 years old.

 

[davideduardo]

I don't have access to the book so 6+ is the only number I can see. IIRC, my info came from an on-line site some months ago so it may not be current as of the "Christmas season" (which seems to be an anomaly - either positive or negative).


In any case, you likely don't see mornings separated by themselves.

The "November" book I cited actually ended a week before Thanksgiving, and is usually the book agencies most consider for the following year's buys (if they don't use a Sept-Oct-Nov average or even June to November 6 book average).

The week before Thanksgiving to mid-December is the December book, and Mid-December to early January is the "Holiday" book (which is the 13th book of each year).

I make no distinction between morning show jocks and other dayparts. I realize there may be a difference in their skill sets and on-air expectations but the only major difference is the amount of banter in between the music.

Morning shows are very separate in the minds of listeners and in listener needs / wants. In the most basic tear-down, listeners want to wake up and know the world has not totally disappeared overnight... and morning shows provide, to one degree or another, that "warmth" that is required. By the time you get to 9 AM, listeners to music formats want just the opposite... music with nearly no talk.

 

[landtuna]

I have been in a number of Radio Shack stores in two metros in CA and one in AZ in the last year, and the only "radios" they had were those Red Cross branded crank emergency radios. But they had what seemed like 50 different phones... AM is a century old technology. FM is 70 years old.

Radio Shack is perhaps the greatest mislabeling of a retail store in America. Tandy, the parent company, was much more a hobby store for all manner of electronic gadgets than a pure radio/TV outlet. They have never been able to figure out a specific niche though and are probably destined for the ash heap of failed biz plans.

 

[davideduardo]

I have been in a number of Radio Shack stores in two metros in CA and one in AZ in the last year, and the only "radios" they had were those Red Cross branded crank emergency radios. But they had what seemed like 50 different phones... AM is a century old technology. FM is 70 years old.

Radio Shack is perhaps the greatest mislabeling of a retail store in America. Tandy, the parent company, was much more a hobby store for all manner of electronic gadgets than a pure radio/TV outlet.

But there was a time when, on the wall behind the counter, there would be 25 to 30 different portable and pocket radios of all kinds. Today: none.

And look for radios in Best Buy, WalMart or any other mass retailer. There is a 10th of the selection that we would have seen in 2000.

People are not buying stand alone radios. They wake up to the smart phone, not a radio. They listen to music and radio on the phone, not via a portable radio or boom box...

 

[landtuna]

People are not buying stand alone radios.

Probably more true than less true but there is still a flourishing business in standalone radios, mostly portable, online. My last purchase was, in fact, a 'Clip' combo FM radio and mp3 player for use on the bicycle. The other three radios I have in the house I've owned for a long time. They don't wear out and they don't disintegrate so why buy another?

They wake up to the smart phone, not a radio.

Some do. Some don't. My wife has a phone but uses her clock radio. The kids don't own radio's so they use their phones.

They listen to music and radio on the phone, not via a portable radio or boom box...

Well, like I said before......some do and some don't. You will not convince me that serious numbers listen to radio on their phones. Music yes. Radio no.

 

[michael hagerty]

I can see where it might freak a guy out to have his own young daughter calling him and requesting a song. That sounds as creepy as neighborhood kids asking a dad to hang out with them.

When I was in my mid-30's I used to team up with dozens of neighborhood kids to play volleyball almost every evening during the summer. Sometimes other parents would join in but mostly it was just me. I never felt "funny" or "weird" and the kids accepted me like they would any other player. Playing volleyball with those kids felt no different than playing baseball with my own kids.

They'd simply aged out of the demo and the audience that enjoyed them most had moved on to other formats.

I can understand if a DJ feels "too old" to participate in the external activities that DJ's used to do but in studio there is only his voice. If you still have the pipes and the interest it doesn't seem that age alone should be a factor. Of course, most people (unlike me) tend to change music genres as they age and if the DJ feels more at home with music intended for his/her age group then no harm done. I don't expect a 50-year old T-40 DJ to act on-air or off like a 20-something would but they would still be respectable doing the music of their generation or MOR or Oldies.

Maybe some of my opinion is colored by the DJ's I listened to growing up. Even as a pre-teen and teenager none of the DJ's were of the "zoo" category. They told jokes and bantered about things that would interest my age group but they weren't pulling pranks or acting MTV "nuts". I would think it would have been much easier for those DJ's to age than the variety of idiots we now have on the youth-oriented stations.

First of all, the quote attributed to me is David Kaye's.

Second, the DJs of our youth (well, my youth) weren't as old as we thought they were. The exceptions (like Bill Ballance, who started his Top 40 career at age 40 when KFWB flipped in 1958), soon lost out to younger jocks who could relate to teen audiences and vice-versa.

Gary Owens was all of 25 when he quit Top 40 for MOR. He was 23 when he did mornings at KEWB. Charlie Van Dyke was 22 when he did mornings at KFRC. He stopped doing Top 40 at 32.

Apart from Dr. Don Rose, Jack Armstrong and the periodic re-hiring of Bobby Ocean, I'm having a hard time thinking of a KFRC jock (1966-1986) who was older than 25 when they started there (John Mack Flanagan was 23, Mark McKay and Beau Weaver were 21) or stayed beyond their 35th birthday.

 

[DavidKaye]

Radio Shack is perhaps the greatest mislabeling of a retail store in America. Tandy, the parent company, was much more a hobby store for all manner of electronic gadgets than a pure radio/TV outlet. They have never been able to figure out a specific niche though and are probably destined for the ash heap of failed biz plans.

I happen to be in correspondence with Lewis Kornfeld, the guy who built Radio Shack from 3 stores to thousands. I'm aware of how he positioned Radio Shack, and he moved it from a hobby store for hams to a full-products store. Since he retired they don't innovate the way they used to (the Weatherradio cube, the free battery coupon, etc), they do carry an assortment of what the general consumer wants. So, yes, they have some TVs, but they don't carry all sizes and all brands. They're a small store, after all. Also, they're still profitable while the big box stores are having some severe problems. Yes, there are a lot of things Kornfeld would like the current management to change, no question, but returning to the hobby store roots is not one of them.

 

[DavidKaye]

[....]
Gary Owens was all of 25 when he quit Top 40 for MOR. He was 23 when he did mornings at KEWB. Charlie Van Dyke was 22 when he did mornings at KFRC. He stopped doing Top 40 at 32. [....]

By the way, I don't think I said Johnny Holliday was 45 when he quite Top 40 radio. Actually he was 32. I said "45" because I was relating to the Harry Chapin song, "WOLD" -- "I am the morning DJ at WOLD, feeling all of 45, going on 16..."

While it's cool to relate to younger people as peers older adults have to watch it carefully. I remember a few years ago when the term "phat" was in use and I was hearing people in their 30s using it. It sounded as bad as an adult saying "groovy". Sure, "phat" would work just fine for a 16 year old kid, but not for an adult.

I can certainly understand why DJs age out of stations that appeal to folks under 25. There's just a disconnect that may not be apparent to the older adult, but is very apparent to the kid.

 

[michael hagerty]

[....]
Gary Owens was all of 25 when he quit Top 40 for MOR. He was 23 when he did mornings at KEWB. Charlie Van Dyke was 22 when he did mornings at KFRC. He stopped doing Top 40 at 32. [....]

By the way, I don't think I said Johnny Holliday was 45 when he quite Top 40 radio. Actually he was 32. I said "45" because I was relating to the Harry Chapin song, "WOLD" -- "I am the morning DJ at WOLD, feeling all of 45, going on 16..."

While it's cool to relate to younger people as peers older adults have to watch it carefully. I remember a few years ago when the term "phat" was in use and I was hearing people in their 30s using it. It sounded as bad as an adult saying "groovy". Sure, "phat" would work just fine for a 16 year old kid, but not for an adult.

I can certainly understand why DJs age out of stations that appeal to folks under 25. There's just a disconnect that may not be apparent to the older adult, but is very apparent to the kid.

And that put Holliday in exactly the right place. His age hadn't started to work against him in Top 40 yet.

We talk of veteran jocks who hang on and then are hit with a career change as though they were #1 all along. But going back over the numbers (Thanks, Google Books!), you find that's rarely the case. Dr. Don Rose was doing mornings on the #17 station in San Francisco when KFRC quit Top 40. Part of the problem, no doubt, was that his show wasn't attracting young listeners the way it had 13 years before when he started.

Lundy and Ingram peaked 7 years before WABC flipped format. Rick Dees wasn't doing horribly at KIIS, but he had Dr. Don's problem...the audience that grew up with him wasn't a Top 40 audience anymore and fewer kids could relate. People acted like KIIS was committing a felony replacing Rick with Ryan Seacrest, but the demos and overall numbers improved almost immediately and Seacrest will celebrate his 9th anniversary in morning drive at KIIS 8 weeks from now.

At 18, I knew the direction Top 40 was headed (this was 1974) wasn't suited to my delivery, so I switched to Adult Contemporary. At 25, it was clear the future of AC was "continuous soft hits", and again, I wasn't the type, so I switched to news.

Johnny Holliday, Gary Owens, Robert W. Morgan, Gene Nelson and a bunch of other guys were very smart to grab the next vine and let go of Top 40 when the opportunity came.

 

[JEREMIAH]

I was 30 at WMEX Boston...we did very well(me too) in the ratings and profits. When Mac Richmond, Owner, tapped me on the shoulder and said.."Steve Fredericks is leaving his night talk show and going to WEEI, you've done a good job sitting in for him when he vacationed so I'd like you to take over the talk show"(I had done talk off and on prior to WMEX) One of the things he said to me in induce me to make the change was..."...listen you have maybe 10 years left as a jock, so this change makes sense". I made the switch but eventually became an AC jock in Orlando & Tampa (went for the sunshine.) Then on to bigger things in SF.

Lots of older jocks, put out to pasture, now do Podcasting even though there's no money there.

Jerry Gordon V.O.'s and the Jack B. Show on the Salem radio network

 

[TheBigA]

Johnny Holliday, Gary Owens, Robert W. Morgan, Gene Nelson and a bunch of other guys were very smart to grab the next vine and let go of Top 40 when the opportunity came.

Knowing when to "grab the next vine" is a real talent that has eluded many who've sat behind the mic. They keep hanging on, expecting to retain past glories. For me, I had the opportunity to work with one who hung on too long on his way down. That experience, when I was just a teen, convinced me that one shouldn't spend his entire life on the air. There comes a time to cash in that equity, and take a job further up the ladder. Maybe leave the rat race to the younger rats. It's why I'm still able to work in the industry, while many of my former peers are gone.

 

[LKellerIII]

Johnny Holliday, Gary Owens, Robert W. Morgan, Gene Nelson and a bunch of other guys were very smart to grab the next vine and let go of Top 40 when the opportunity came.

Knowing when to "grab the next vine" is a real talent that has eluded many who've sat behind the mic. They keep hanging on, expecting to retain past glories. For me, I had the opportunity to work with one who hung on too long on his way down. That experience, when I was just a teen, convinced me that one shouldn't spend his entire life on the air. There comes a time to cash in that equity, and take a job further up the ladder. Maybe leave the rat race to the younger rats. It's why I'm still able to work in the industry, while many of my former peers are gone.

I don't remember what exact year Gary Owens left KEWB for KMPC, but he was born in 1936, so he wasn't yet 30. The more relaxed MOR format was definitely a better showcase for his humor.


In the case of Robert W. Morgan, moving to MOR certainly fit in better with his musical tastes. I didn't notice it in the 60s when I was a kid listening to KHJ, but listening to his airchecks now, I've noticed that when he talked about how great a certain singer or songwriter is, it was always the MOR stuff - Jimmy Webb, Burt Bacharach, Dionne Warwick, Richard Harris, etc. He never had much to say about the Monkees, the Bee Gees, or Tommy Roe.

It's worth noting that 2 of the 4 mentioned above (Morgan and Nelson), returned to "Top 40" (sort of) in later years on Oldies stations - Morgan on K-Earth and Nelson on KSFO/KYA-FM.

 

[michael hagerty]

Llew: Gary left KEWB for KFWB in 1961, spent a year, then went to KMPC in 1962. He was 26.

At one point (1977-80), KMPC had five former L.A. Top 40 morning men on its staff: Gary, Geoff Edwards (who was at KHJ during its brief early 60s attempt at Top 40), Wink Martindale (KRLA, KFWB), Robert W. Morgan (KHJ, KIQQ) and Dave Hull (KRLA).

Hull was the oldest of the bunch when he joined KMPC at 43. Morgan was 39, Wink was 36, Geoff was 37 and Gary 26. But Edwards' last Top 40 shift was at age 32, Wink's was at 31 and Hull's was at 34. Gary and Robert W. were the only two to come to KMPC straight from a Top 40 gig.

Apart from Kathy Gori, who joined KMPC at 21, I think Gary was the youngest jock in the station's history. And since this is the San Francisco board, we'll point out that Kathy was on KSFO at age 19.

 

[michael hagerty]

About Morgan's musical tastes: Not surprising. He (and the other former Top 40 guys at KMPC) went through his teens in the pre-rock era. I think all of them did radio before Top 40 even existed. Hard to realize it, but Gary's only 5 years younger than Clint Eastwood, Robert W. only 4, Dave and Wink 3 and Geoff is the same age. They're not from a rock and roll generation.

Neither was the Real Don Steele, but he didn't start in radio until he was 23, and by that point Top 40 was where the action was.