does a station burn a bridge when it refuses to incorporate its calls?

[MikeShannon914]

Case in point...nearly one year's worth of "Lite Rock 103.7" with the only identifier to its KVIL calls is during the legal ID, where it's brushed over quickly and nonchalantly. Doesn't that wreak a little havoc with diary-keepers and diary-counters? And if you had some goodwill established with your calls (in this case, simply a weak reimaging of an existing format that DID have a nice history once upon a time,) wouldn't you want to remind folks of those call letters? I'm sure a name is easily deciphered (we all know Mix, Jack, The Ticket, The Edge, etc) but KVIL's is more of a format identifier that some other station could easily come along and use.

 

[little1]

Could be that research has shown that a lot of people out there when you say "KVIL' say 'oh yeah, that's the station my Mom listened to..."

And the sidekick of that statement is that while they don't like KVIL (because who likes the uncool stuff their parents listen to?) they like the lite rocks hits that 103.7 plays...

KVIL is targeting the 40ish, minivan driving Plano mom with some money...The problem with the 'nice history' is that the 40 year olds that were listening to Chapman in the 80's are now 65...

And no, not mentioning the call letters doesn't play havoc with the diary keepers or the diary counters. The counters will interpret whatever is in teh diary based on a stations data sheet...Surely you know that stations report to Arbitron their positioners, jocks, slogans, etc?

 

[MikeShannon914]

Surely you know that stations report to Arbitron their positioners, jocks, slogans, etc?

Surely I don't. I'm not in that end of the business.

So with that logic, the impetus KVIL had in the early 70s that eventually led them to the top of the heap should have been a NEGATIVE...If I was a 40 year-old female in 1970 jammin' to Lampman, Schell and Chapman and the Carpenters, Bread, etc, I'd have been 55 in 1985, out of their demo and unattractive to advertisers, and I'd expect my younger counterparts to not think about me when they listened for their Prize Catalog numbers. I admit there's some logic there from your post, but trying a similar argument, an assumption that WBAP was possibly my great-grandfather's favorite station bears no weight on me listening to it in 2007.

KLUV's changed little since 1985. Same for KRLD since 1978, KZPS for 20 years until this recent change, KSCS since 1970, KPLX since 1980, WRR since 1947, KDMX since 1991, KKDA-FM since 1975, KLIF since 1986, KKDA-AM since 1970, etc.

 

[grantchester]

I've always thought that it takes so much time and effort to build awareness that call sign continuity was an asset, but I've heard programmers say the heritage calls are "Tainted", and need to be dumped.

That in mind, the old KTRH-FM chose the best ever calls for their 101.1 frequency, KLOL, which could be written and said K-101. That only lasted a few years til KIOI in San Francisco sued and made them stop saying K-101.
With that in mind, I have always been baffled by K-I-S-S FM in San Antonio. They've had the calls since 1948 (named after the toothpaste Stinky Davis hawked on KMAC, but I digress) K-I-S-S FM has always been KISS.. but then there was KIIS, which did well calling itself kiss... then Clear Channel bought them, and started suing stations that called themselves KISS... even though there is only and will only be one K-I-S-S...And they belong to Cox now.
So, my sense of it is, keep the calls, use the calls, rehab the calls, don't p-ss away decades of awareness, rather, evolve the station so as to hang onto the dim recognition of the casual listeners. They don't know Jack. (or Bob, Wolf, Buzzard, River, Star, or any other b.s. identifier the consultant ripped off from some other market).

 

[Robert Bass]

I've always thought that it takes so much time and effort to build awareness that call sign continuity was an asset, but I've heard programmers say the heritage calls are "Tainted", and need to be dumped.

That in mind, the old KTRH-FM chose the best ever calls for their 101.1 frequency, KLOL, which could be written and said K-101. That only lasted a few years til KIOI in San Francisco sued and made them stop saying K-101.
With that in mind, I have always been baffled by K-I-S-S FM in San Antonio. They've had the calls since 1948 (named after the toothpaste Stinky Davis hawked on KMAC, but I digress) K-I-S-S FM has always been KISS.. but then there was KIIS, which did well calling itself kiss... then Clear Channel bought them, and started suing stations that called themselves KISS... even though there is only and will only be one K-I-S-S...And they belong to Cox now.
So, my sense of it is, keep the calls, use the calls, rehab the calls, don't p-ss away decades of awareness, rather, evolve the station so as to hang onto the dim recognition of the casual listeners. They don't know Jack. (or Bob, Wolf, Buzzard, River, Star, or any other b.s. identifier the consultant ripped off from some other market).

A standing ovation is in order!!! 8)

R

 

[little1]

Surely I don't. I'm not in that end of the business.

Maybe you should ask around and see how programming actually works. I find it hard to believe someone who is on air doesn't understand the basics of arbitron, the diary system, and the station information reports...

KLUV's changed little since 1985. Same for KRLD since 1978, KZPS for 20 years until this recent change, KSCS since 1970, KPLX since 1980, WRR since 1947, KDMX since 1991, KKDA-FM since 1975, KLIF since 1986, KKDA-AM since 1970, etc.

You're kidding me right?

I worked part time at KLUV in the early 90's. The music then is a HUGE change from the music now. And you can really sit there and say they've 'changed little'? Who are you kidding? When I was there, we were still 60's based. Now it's mostly 70's, and there's more and more 80's creeping in. That is a HUGE change.

And same with most of the stations you speak of. 20 years ago, KZPS was transitioning from Z92-5, the POWER station, to classic hits 92-5....Then to classic rock a few years later...Do you really call that 'little change'?

And If 99.5 is little changed, I assume they're still flexing their plex? Wait, what's that, they've completely rebranded the station, writing off the baggage of the 'heritage calls', and been hugely successful (CMA winner, Marconi nom'd, etc) the past 10 years, all with barely a mention of their actual call letters?

Need we go on? Do I need to point outthat KDMX couldn't really have been playing the best mix of the 80's, 90's and today in 1991, do I?

Or that pretty much all the music that K104 is playing today is by artists who probably weren't even born in 1975...

Or that little change for KLIF would mean Norm in AM drive, Kevin and Bob-Ray doing general talk, and just a smattering of political talk, instead of walk to wall politics like they have now...

They may not have changed call letters, but those stations have changed PLENTY in the last 20+ years...

Or do you really want to stick with your thesis that all those stations have changed 'little'?

 

[little1]

I've always thought that it takes so much time and effort to build awareness that call sign continuity was an asset, but I've heard programmers say the heritage calls are "Tainted", and need to be dumped.

So, my sense of it is, keep the calls, use the calls, rehab the calls, don't p-ss away decades of awareness, rather, evolve the station so as to hang onto the dim recognition of the casual listeners. They don't know Jack. (or Bob, Wolf, Buzzard, River, Star, or any other b.s. identifier the consultant ripped off from some other market).

So should 1310 have kept the KAAM calls when flipping to sports?
And should Jack really have kept the KJMZ calls? Even though the whole point of calling themselves Jack is so that Jack here is similar to Jack there?

Seriously, I think it's a judgement call that needs to be made on a case by case basis on whether the 'call sign continuity' is worth whatever 'taint' the heritage calls might have. And that's where KPLX is probably a good example to discuss. As I mentioned earlier, they've been succesful from a ratings and reputation standpoint, and at one point, they were one of the top billers in the market, so they've been succesful, all without relying on the heritage calls...

Can someone give a before and after example of rehabbing of call letters? Where the call letters have really been central to a station's positioning both before and after a change?

I can think of some examples (like The Power station Z92.5 KZPS, going to 92.5 the Classic rock station) where the calls have fallen into disuse, but few if any where the call letters have been front and center both before and after...

 

[Robert Bass]

I believe the question is when a station dumps calls but the format as a whole remains the same. Hence, KVIL. Sure, sometimes a change in calls is a good thing. But not when the station has gained a rep for itself from a legendary standpont. If KRLD were to go back to a true all news all day format, should they change calls? No.

R

 

[MikeShannon914]

Or do you really want to stick with your thesis that all those stations have changed 'little'?

Or you could stick it instead? ;D

KLUV is oldies, then and now. The intended demo is the same. "Aging" your format is just a natural progression to stay within your target demo.

KZPS was classic pop/rock from 12/1986-2007. The same core of songs was always played; the Classic Hits version played more, um, hits, and the Classic Rock version, played more, um, rock. I don't believe I was talking about Z-92.5, which should have been evident by the "20 years" I mentioned. Z-92.5 had a whopping 10.5 months on the air in 1986.

OK, I'll give you KPLX...but the Top 40 Country format, with whatever else mixed in, is still the rule, and has been since 1980. I take it that you understand that Top 40 lists change weekly, so playing today's Top 40 is not the same as holding to what was in 1980's Top 40, correct?

Mix? K-104? Same argument as KPLX...Top 40 changes weekly. The playlist, therefore, changes weekly. What Funkadelic was to me in 1978 is the same as what Kanye West is to some 14-yr old kid today. It's what's popular at a given time. And those particular stations are doing the same FORMAT they did however many years ago. No sh!t, Sherlock...it's not going to be the same exact songs.

KLIF is still talk, no matter how you slice it. Bolton in the mornings, JD in the afternoons...it's a smorgasbord of whatever is topical, be it politics or the latest commentary on some celebrity's mishaps or chatter about local sports. There's supposed to be a change in there since 1986? David Gold, "The Conservative Freight Train," wasn't spewing politics in his day there in the 80s and 90s? Bob Ray Sanders was not political?

You're arguing syntax here, and very weak points. I'll concede that you DO indeed have some points worthy of thought, which is much more than you'd ever allow me. And no, my job has little to do with ratings, the diary system, etc. Being in a stable, vendor relationship, there's little for me to worry about...so why should I even sweat it. I'll just continue being an armchair programmer here and give you a few more fits.

Did we ever ascertain where you work and what you do, and what's on your resume? Perhaps it would help us to understand you better.

 

[MikeShannon914]

Can someone give a before and after example of rehabbing of call letters? Where the call letters have really been central to a station's positioning both before and after a change?

You'll spend all your time disputing these, but here's a few: WFAA-AM (entertainment to Top 40 to all-news,) WRR-AM (entertainment to all-news,) KLIF-AM (Top 40 to country to talk,) KSKY-AM (religious to talk,) KFJZ (870 AM; big band to Spanish,) KRLD-AM (entertainment to MOR to news to talk,) KBUY-AM/FM (country to Spanish,) KYNG (country to talk,) KBFB (soft AC to urban,) KPLX (MOR to country,) KIXK (country to oldies,)

Understand that I can't vouch for every circumstance as to exactly how integral the calls were before or after. Many of these are stations I didn't, or don't, listen to. I'm weighing in the heavier likelihood of a station being very "married" to its call letters for listener identification, as was typically the case before the 1990s.

 

[little1]

You really don't see a difference between a station focusing on 50's and 60's music, and one focusing on 70's and 80's? Would you really just classify them both as 'oldies' and leave it at that?

But okay, you've said those stations are doing the same format that they've been doing for years.
Would it be fair to say that WBAP, KRLD, KLIF, KSKY, KTCK, KESN,and KLLI are all under the umbrella of the 'talk' format?

And that KPLX, KSCS, Twister, Cowboy 1190, The Ranch, and the Range are all 'country'. And therefore the same "format"?

 

[little1]

Can someone give a before and after example of rehabbing of call letters? Where the call letters have really been central to a station's positioning both before and after a change?

You'll spend all your time disputing these, but here's a few: WFAA-AM (entertainment to Top 40 to all-news,) WRR-AM (entertainment to all-news,) KLIF-AM (Top 40 to country to talk,) KSKY-AM (religious to talk,) KFJZ (870 AM; big band to Spanish,) KRLD-AM (entertainment to MOR to news to talk,) KBUY-AM/FM (country to Spanish,) KYNG (country to talk,) KBFB (soft AC to urban,) KPLX (MOR to country,) KIXK (country to oldies,)

Understand that I can't vouch for every circumstance as to exactly how integral the calls were before or after. Many of these are stations I didn't, or don't, listen to. I'm weighing in the heavier likelihood of a station being very "married" to its call letters for listener identification, as was typically the case before the 1990s.

In other words, you can't give me an example that isn't like 20 years old, right?
When did KPLX go from MOR to country, the late 70's?

 

[Robert Bass]

You really don't see a difference between a station focusing on 50's and 60's music, and one focusing on 70's and 80's? Would you really just classify them both as 'oldies' and leave it at that?

YES. Because if KLUV started with 50's and 60's, in the late 80's, the music would be about 10 to 20 years old. 70's and 80's today is 20 to 30 years old.

R

 

[arnoldevns]

Understand that I can't vouch for every circumstance as to exactly how integral the calls were before or after. Many of these are stations I didn't, or don't, listen to. I'm weighing in the heavier likelihood of a station being very "married" to its call letters for listener identification, as was typically the case before the 1990s.

I understand the basic premise of your question. I think the simple answer is that it depends on the station and how well they sell the other identity. In the case of KVIL, they've done a pretty good job of building the new brand name without the old "heritage" calls. It would be hard to imagine WBAP not using their calls in their branding. KRLD could do it since they've also called themselves "Newsradio 1080" for so long.

With regards to Arbitron, it really doesn't matter. If someone wrote 103.7 or "lite" in the diary I'm sure KVIL would get the credit. What matters is that the listener recalls something accurately about the station they listened to. The more memorable the name, the better off they are.

 

[MikeShannon914]

In other words, you can't give me an example that isn't like 20 years old, right? When did KPLX go from MOR to country, the late 70's?

OK, spin this until you're undisputably right, O omniscient one. I don't recall you specifying a timetable in your post (you might recheck it to see, just in case.) So KBFB's been 20 years ago? KYNG? Go to bed, dude (or ma'am.) I'll duke this out with you another time.

January 7, 1980, to be exact, on the KPLX change. "The Wolf" moniker didn't come around until July 24, 1998.

 

[DAYRADIO]

Interesting stuff, but I'd argue that in many (most?) cases the WBAPs, KRLDs, KTRHs, KPRCs, etc are better served keeping the heritage calls because of the heritage. Many stations have come and gone, flipping formats and calls, but how many can claim a 70+ year heritage with the same call letters? When switching from Country to news/talk, WBAP still "brings a program," KTRH still encourages listeners to "Kome to the Rice Hotel," and KAND endorses "Kanned" chili.

I'm not sure KVIL has the same history as some of the stations above. My fondest recollection of KVIL back in the day was a reprint of their covergae map - in Playboy magazine. KVIL's rendering of the Metroplex roadways looked very much like a man's genitals.

 

[Robert Bass]

I'm not sure KVIL has the same history as some of the stations above. My fondest recollection of KVIL back in the day was a reprint of their covergae map - in Playboy magazine. KVIL's rendering of the Metroplex roadways looked very much like a man's genitals.

OUCH!!! Was it really necessary to share that info?

R

 

[DAYRADIO]

It was a hoot - I seem to remember it was a Chapman joke. I'll let you be the judge... here's a link to the 1978 version of DFW's freeway system: http://www.texasfreeway.com/Dallas/historic/freeway_planning_maps/dfw_1978_freeways.shtml. If you zoom a bit, and imagine, Robert, that your neck of the woods isn't so much a neck, you'll see what I mean!
;D

 

[davideduardo]

Case in point...nearly one year's worth of "Lite Rock 103.7" with the only identifier to its KVIL calls is during the legal ID, where it's brushed over quickly and nonchalantly. Doesn't that wreak a little havoc with diary-keepers and diary-counters? And if you had some goodwill established with your calls (in this case, simply a weak reimaging of an existing format that DID have a nice history once upon a time,) wouldn't you want to remind folks of those call letters? I'm sure a name is easily deciphered (we all know Mix, Jack, The Ticket, The Edge, etc) but KVIL's is more of a format identifier that some other station could easily come along and use.

The calls and the dial position are automatically credited by Arbitron... since both are FCC licensed. However, about 75% to 80% of overall diary mentions are by frequency or include frequency... and if the frequency is e3xact, always credited.

Names of stations are next. Unless dupliicated in the market or written in an unclear manner, they get 100% credit as do show or talent names.

Since calls are the least memorable part of a station identity, many of us choose to never use them except for legal IDs. And that is why in mmost parts of the world, stations don't use calles on the air as an identifier.

 

[davideduardo]

Surely you know that stations report to Arbitron their positioners, jocks, slogans, etc?

Actually, stations only report names like Love 94 or The Ticket or The Twister. They don't report slogans, positioners, jocks, etc. And they have not for two years.