does a station burn a bridge when it refuses to incorporate its calls?

[Robert Bass]

Most of the world does not use calls. In one country I worked in would not allow calls to be used in place of a station name.

You're talking about "most of the world", not the USA specifically. And by the way, I am way under the 55 Demo, and I can remember all the calls I mentioned, a few posts back, in about ten seconds flat.

Those surveys you speak of, come off as saying listeners are stupid, from my viewpoint.

If I asked for people's auto licence tag number, a large number would not know? But they know the brand of the car and probably the mode. A set of letters is harder to remember than a name, which is why most "newer" stations use names, not just the calls.

That's beside the point. I am talking about radio call letters, usually 4 simple letters, not license tag numbers. LTN's don't get announced on the air, except maybe during EAS Amber Alerts.

R

 

[Nizam]

For the most part, in Providence, you don't here Lite Rock 105 Identify themselve as WWLI, or Hot 106 Identify themselves as WWKX outside of the legal ID

 

[Kent]

I think the answer to the question of whether a station burns bridges when it doesn't incorporate its calls is usually no but not always. When David points out that KLUV is identified by frequency and calls 38% of the time and by calls alone 21% of the time, the calls are mentioned almost 60% of the time. I would say that hardly proves call letters are irrelevant or a bad way to image a station. I also disagree with the idea that flushing heritage is a good thing. There's very little that's more promotable than heritage, whether that heritage is call letters, a brand name or anything else. The problem is when people can't see a long term business model as being longer than the quarter after next. Taking a heritage station, especially one that's had problems, and rebuilding the brand takes longer, even if long term results would be better.

 

[davideduardo]

I think the answer to the question of whether a station burns bridges when it doesn't incorporate its calls is usually no but not always. When David points out that KLUV is identified by frequency and calls 38% of the time and by calls alone 21% of the time, the calls are mentioned almost 60% of the time. I would say that hardly proves call letters are irrelevant or a bad way to image a station. I also disagree with the idea that flushing heritage is a good thing. There's very little that's more promotable than heritage, whether that heritage is call letters, a brand name or anything else. The problem is when people can't see a long term business model as being longer than the quarter after next. Taking a heritage station, especially one that's had problems, and rebuilding the brand takes longer, even if long term results would be better.

1. A station is only "heritage" if the image is positive and the station, today, is good.
2. Under about 50, call letters are evil baggage. They are old school, and so "30's" that younger listeners don't find them attractive.

(KLUV is over 40% over 55, and 2/3 over 45, age groups that are more used to calls vs. names)

 

[Kent]

1. A station is only "heritage" if the image is positive and the station, today, is good.

For the most part, I agree with this statement. After all, if no one is listening, no one knows you're around. It's hard to build heritage when no one knows you're there. Besides, stations that don't do well usually don't last long enough to build heritage. However, I do think some operators are too quick to pull the plug on heritage stations at the first sign of downturn. It seems CBS agrees with me on this as they've brought back several heritage stations since the end of the Joel Hollander era.

2. Under about 50, call letters are evil baggage. They are old school, and so "30's" that younger listeners don't find them attractive.

I can think of plenty of younger skewing stations that identify with their call letters, such as KRBE in Houston. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'd launch a new CHR that identified only by call letters, but I'd make an effort to keep a KRBE or a KLUC around if I acquired such a station.

 

[davideduardo]

For the most part, I agree with this statement. After all, if no one is listening, no one knows you're around. It's hard to build heritage when no one knows you're there. Besides, stations that don't do well usually don't last long enough to build heritage. However, I do think some operators are too quick to pull the plug on heritage stations at the first sign of downturn. It seems CBS agrees with me on this as they've brought back several heritage stations since the end of the Joel Hollander era.

I agree entirely. Unfortunately there are not many heritage stations that are not simply occupying a nice niche but without any of the loyalty or branding that a heritage station would require.

I can think of plenty of younger skewing stations that identify with their call letters, such as KRBE in Houston. Don't get me wrong, I'm not saying I'd launch a new CHR that identified only by call letters, but I'd make an effort to keep a KRBE or a KLUC around if I acquired such a station.

Agree again. There are exceptions... and they tend to be stations that date quite a ways back, as KRBE 1070 does.

 

[Robert Bass]

And now another opportunity to debunk this insane theory that people can't remember call letters. Here's an excerpt from a message sent to KEOM on 11/26/07

Message: I keep my dial on keom always.

R

 

[davideduardo]

And now another opportunity to debunk this insane theory that people can't remember call letters. Here's an excerpt from a message sent to KEOM on 11/26/07

Nobody said that people do not remember calls. However, calls are not as memorable as names, and, today, listeners use the station "address" as reference... the frequency as displayed on the digital readout on nearly every radio in use today. This is just a matter of which of a number of options is the most effective way of branding a radio station.

 

[BBontheRadio]

FWIW, if I'm not mistaken, in lite fm's last book, over 80% of the respondents put "103.7".

 

[Robert Bass]

And now another opportunity to debunk this insane theory that people can't remember call letters. Here's an excerpt from a message sent to KEOM on 11/26/07

Nobody said that people do not remember calls. However, calls are not as memorable as names, and, today, listeners use the station "address" as reference... the frequency as displayed on the digital readout on nearly every radio in use today. This is just a matter of which of a number of options is the most effective way of branding a radio station.

AHEM! Now who's backing away from previous statements?

You said earlier:

Since calls are the least memorable part of a station identity, many of us choose to never use them except for legal IDs. And that is why in mmost parts of the world, stations don't use calles on the air as an identifier.

AND from Little1 we hear:

And Robert, I've heard that Dan McDowell (who's a big listener of your station) refer to you guys as 'that mesquite high school station". If your calls are that memorable, why is a guy, who's actually in the buisness, unable to remember what they are?

Yet I have clearly shown that in two days, two different listeners have used KEOM's calls when contacting the station.

You guys can spin this any way you want, but you're just wasting time, IMHO.

R

 

[Robert Bass]

FWIW, if I'm not mistaken, in lite fm's last book, over 80% of the respondents put "103.7".

That's probably because you guys quit using the KVIL calls on a regular basis a long time ago.

R

 

[davideduardo]

Nobody said that people do not remember calls. However, calls are not as memorable as names, and, today, listeners use the station "address" as reference... the frequency as displayed on the digital readout on nearly every radio in use today. This is just a matter of which of a number of options is the most effective way of branding a radio station.

AHEM! Now who's backing away from previous statements?

Nobody. Names are easier to remember than call letters. Names evoke images, or create descriptions of a station's format or style or mood. Call letters, even at their best when they say somthing albeit in abbreviated form, are less effective in doing that.

In today's crowded media environment, names are both and identity and a description. For a new station, seldom do we see calls alone being used. For heritage stations (meaning they have a history up to this moment of large audiences), calls may be so well ingrained that changing name would be counterproductive as the "learning curve" is already achieved.

You guys can spin this any way you want, but you're just wasting time, IMHO.

Just logic should tell you that a name is more effective than letters in becoming memorable and in branding a station. In the package goods area, we see very few products with names like WD 40 and Formula 401. 99.9% of such products have names, many refering to a product's benefits such as "Downy" for a fabric softener or "Irish Spring" for a soap or "Razr" for a slim phone. Speaking of that example, were the phone to have been a Motorola 352, how many people would have gotten the impression that it was "razor thin" and "razor sharp?"

In other cases, BMW and Mercedes-Benz being examples, the product line is so image-laden and strong that naming the models would detract from the strength of the brand... so we have BMW X-5 and 328i and Mercedes C and M and E class cars... reinforcing the fact that they are BMWs and Mercedes cars, with no confusion.

Good radio stations understand branding and the way their target demo perceives brand images. KVIL may have been well suited decades ago by using calls; today they are looking for an audience that was pre-adolescent in the 80's, and which has grown up on brands, not the arcane call letters of the 20's.

 

[Robert Bass]

David,

You are making pointless examples yet again. Commercial products are NOT REQUIRED to use brand names or call letters and names. Yet RADIO STATIONS ARE REQUIRED to have call letters. You guys in CONsultant land are the only ones I have ever heard claiming call letters are evil.

If you need to "brand" your stations, that is understandable. But the calls should be a part of the brand name. History has shown it can be done quite easily:

KMGC Magic

KEGL The Eagle

KMEO Memories

R

 

[davideduardo]

You are making pointless examples yet again. Commercial products are NOT REQUIRED to use brand names or call letters and names. Yet RADIO STATIONS ARE REQUIRED to have call letters. You guys in CONsultant land are the only ones I have ever heard claiming call letters are evil.

Call letters are "evil" to newer generations. They sound old-fashioned.

What happened is that stations had a legal requirement to identify in the era when equipment was erratic and unstable so that interferece could be determined and distant listeners could clearly tell what station from far away they were tuned to. Today, essentially all the listening is local, equipment is so good it can be left unattended almost perpetually, and cases of stations interfering are minimal.

Those of us who realized that branding with acutal words rather than with initials was more effective in getting diary credit added one more arrow to the quiver in station-to-station competiton. Can you be successful with just calls? Sure... especially if you have a very old target demo. But, since calls only have to be given once an hour, we have the option of using names and most programmers, and managers, and consultants, prefer the elegance of a name to the "rank and serial number" of call letters.

If you need to "brand" your stations, that is understandable. But the calls should be a part of the brand name. History has shown it can be done quite easily:

Sure, it can be done. But, given the fact that the calls add nothing except to a heritage, call-based station, why would you want to clutter the identity?

KMGC Magic

KEGL The Eagle

KMEO Memories

I always loved the last one. In the southwest, in most markets, a quarter of the folks will wonder why a station is named after the vulgarism for urination. McLendon learned the danger of call letters and language in San Antonio about 50 years ago when he tried to change KTSA for a set of calls that Hispanics used to signify poop.

 

[salemjedi54]

I'm sure most folk know KKDA-FM as K104 and not KKDA-FM and the same for KBFB. Know one knows the Beat as KBFB, its 97-9 The Beat.

 

[henderson_s454]

I'm sure most folk know KKDA-FM as K104 and not KKDA-FM and the same for KBFB. Know one knows the Beat as KBFB, its 97-9 The Beat.

While I will agree with that last statement since not very many people my own age (26, BTW) are aware of call letters, I will go on the record to say that during my college years, I had an instructor, a red-haired, older Irishwoman by the name of Marcia Adams, state that "the key to higher education is looking stuff up! Even as young as six years old, I was quick to do just that. Twenty years later, I still find myself doing just that, even though the means for doing so are more advanced and much more plentiful than they were at this time in 1987.

On that note, I know more about call letters than most of the people my own age strictly because I take the time to look each station's call letters up online - and even listen along as they speak way too quickly - and that's how I know that K104 is KKDA and 97.9 The Beat is KBFB - which were also the call letters used for B 97.9 when LaBella was still morning host. Granted, they were still KRRW for the first three months - but shortly after that they switched to the KBFB calls and they still have those call letters ten years later, even though their current format is only 7 years old, if that. But, I digress...

 

[Robert Bass]

I always loved the last one. In the southwest, in most markets, a quarter of the folks will wonder why a station is named after the vulgarism for urination. McLendon learned the danger of call letters and language in San Antonio about 50 years ago when he tried to change KTSA for a set of calls that Hispanics used to signify poop.

Wow... I had no idea. I'm guessing a lot of listeners didn't either.

Well speaking of bad call letter patterns, ever heard one of the sets originally considered for KEOM?

KMES... ;D

R

 

[davideduardo]

Wow... I had no idea. I'm guessing a lot of listeners didn't either.

Well speaking of bad call letter patterns, ever heard one of the sets originally considered for KEOM?

KMES... ;D

R

101.9 in LA, before becoming KSCA, was an AC known as K-Light and the calls were KLIT. On the Sunset Blvd. Golden West building, the calls adorned the front wall in the form of big aluminum letters with a hyphen... K-LIT. There was a tendency for the hyphen to "disappear" and, when a memo was issued condemning the vandalism, the hyphen disappeard with even greater frequency.

 

[Kent]

While I will agree with that last statement since not very many people my own age (26, BTW) are aware of call letters, I will go on the record to say that during my college years, I had an instructor, a red-haired, older Irishwoman by the name of Marcia Adams, state that "the key to higher education is looking stuff up!

While this is a true statement, keep in mind that most people don't see radio as something they should have to work at to enjoy. It's in radio's best interest not to make the listeners look anything up.

 

[MikeShannon914]

True, very true. But I'm right there with Henderson, taking the time to look things up and do the research just out of curiosity and maybe even potential empowerment? It's just nice to know something about one's world and to scratch below the surface to find out about the nuts and bolts.

BUT...you gotta realize that we all wouldn't be on such a blog if we didn't have some deep love (or hate) for the industry--so sure, we're all conscious of call letters, formats, dial positions, personalities, history, etc etc etc--WAAAAAAY more than any casual or average radio listener!