Does Management Care when an HD2 Radio station goes down?

[BruceS8852]

Yesterday there were major thunderstorms in the NYC area which resulted in several HD2 going off the air for several hours. In the past some NYC HD2 stations have been down for days. When this happens are radio station managers aware or do they even care? When an AM or FM station goes down due to a technical problem, it is usually fixed ASAP. The station obviously does not want to lose advertising revenue. Any comments from the HD radio enthusiasts here?

Bruce

 

[cheffo200]

Hi Bruce,

I live in Brooklyn and most of the HD channels have been off the air way before the storms. I noticed they were off the air early Saturday morning. I guess the owners don't care because there's no ads on their HD channels. I will tell you this. HD Radio will go down big time if they don't put any effort in their HD channels. Why should the general public care if the owners don't care.

 

[BruceS8852]

Perhaps the story would have been different if this happened on a week day. Anyway I was listening to WFAN when they were promoting 102.7-HD2 and WNEW.com. Most, but not all HD2 stations are available on the web.

Bruce

 

[Savage]

There is a bigger question here.

Why should the HD2 or HD3 subs go down because of a thunderstorm??

If the main channel is back on, why wouldn't the subs come back on at the same time?

Is it because they're programmed from computers in some rack or closet out of the way somewhere that the engineers forget about? What, they can't spring for a $35 UPS from WalMart?

Or does the iBiquity Decepticon out at the Tx site lose its lunch when the power drops and there has to be some kind of manual reboot to get HD2 and HD3 back?

In either case there needs to be some serious revision of engineering procedures. I thought the "choice" offered by the HD subchannels was a primary selling point for the system (??)

 

[LinoNYC]

There is a bigger question here.

Why should the HD2 or HD3 subs go down because of a thunderstorm??

If the main channel is back on, why wouldn't the subs come back on at the same time?

Is it because they're programmed from computers in some rack or closet out of the way somewhere that the engineers forget about? What, they can't spring for a $35 UPS from WalMart?

Or does the iBiquity Decepticon out at the Tx site lose its lunch when the power drops and there has to be some kind of manual reboot to get HD2 and HD3 back?

In either case there needs to be some serious revision of engineering procedures. I thought the "choice" offered by the HD subchannels was a primary selling point for the system (??)

What, they can't spring for a $35 UPS from WalMart?

That might be enough to keep your operation going, but here in market #1 all of these signals are located on the ESB (I'am sure you know that).

You are so desperate to find something-anything against this system that you didn't even bother to read one of the posts that stated: ...most of the HD channels have been off the air way before the storms. I noticed they were off the air early Saturday morning.

it's possible they are undergoing upgrade, I have read that (your nemesis) ibiquity is planning a DSP based exciter to replace the PC/Linux current.


It might be more dignified if you would use your "reliable sources" to find out what is going on before commenting.

Lino

 

[Savage]

There you have it, folks. Fresh from Bangkok and all-knowing "Market #1."

Ask a legitimate question related to the subject matter of the thread.

Gratuitous abuse is the response.

Why the moderator hasn't tossed you up to this point is a mystery.

 

[Savage]

While we're at it: here we have reports of the HD2 and HD3 subs off-air for a prolonged period of time, due to thunderstorms, "upgrades" or "maintenance" or whatever, the IBOC excuse ju jour.

In another thread RF Burns alluded to NYC HD-AM streams being off-air for maintenance. I think it was Tom Wells who noted in an earlier thread that Chicago HD-AMs were off for days if not weeks for some unknown reason.

What is it about HD that necessitates this? If it's "updates," why do they take so long to perform?

"Maintenance?" Isn't this thing basically a computer?

What was the last time your main air-chain processor or main TX was off-air for "maintenance" for days or weeks? It makes no sense.

Food for thought, for digital purists who think that we can dispense with analog. Being off-air for prolonged periods with no analog backup might not be a happy prospect.

 

[LinoNYC]

There you have it, folks. Fresh from Bangkok and all-knowing "Market #1."

Ask a legitimate question related to the subject matter of the thread.

Gratuitous abuse is the response.

Why the moderator hasn't tossed you up to this point is a mystery.

I see..and this quote

Or does the iBiquity Decepticon out at the Tx site

is an adult and dignified one you are proud-of.

Ya know Bob, I came across an old KDwB 'check of yours, you had a clean, hip delivery -very early-mid seventies. frankly i felt a bit bad for a moment about the nature of our exchanges. Given your background you could have been one of the most interesting people here, instead you have frankly made a fool of yourself...repeatedly.

Fresh from Bangkok

Yes , and I have to go back there next week (I hope the rumors of another military coup are false) so you'll have atleast a week of un-encumbered propagandizing. Not that any of this matters.

Lino

 

[kenglish]

How do they feed their HD signals? At least one station here in SLC is using an unlicensed LAN Link for an HD2 STL, until the parts come for their main. It gets clobbered at times by other 2.5 GHz traffic. Maybe a storm would do it, too?

 

[KB1OKL]

Yesterday there were major thunderstorms in the NYC area which resulted in several HD2 going off the air for several hours. In the past some NYC HD2 stations have been down for days. When this happens are radio station managers aware or do they even care? When an AM or FM station goes down due to a technical problem, it is usually fixed ASAP. The station obviously does not want to lose advertising revenue. Any comments from the HD radio enthusiasts here?

Bruce

Maybe they wait until their 10's of ardent fans call in to say they are not receiving them. The lag time might be because they have to pull the 50 ft booms from their rooftops down to check the feed lines for their specially cut FM Yagi's if they live in the IBOC ultra fringe area, say 10 or more miles out from the TX. ;D ;D ;D

 

[calstymes]

LinoNYC did set forth this question:

I see... and this quote

Savage's comment here:

Or does the iBiquity Decepticon out at the Tx site

is an adult and dignified one you are proud-of.

It is no secret that the iBiQuity computer which controls the generation of this IBOC hash has a history of crashing at rather inopportune times. When this happens, I have heard that it has the unfortunate side effect of driving the responsible engineer(s) somewhat batty. I am presuming here that this is to what Mr. Savage was referring. If that is the case, then it is probably an accurate description.

Ya know Bob, I came across an old KDwB 'check of yours, you had a clean, hip delivery -very early-mid seventies. frankly i felt a bit bad for a moment about the nature of our exchanges. Given your background you could have been one of the most interesting people here, instead you have frankly made a fool of yourself... repeatedly.

It is of some amazement to me how you insist on bringing the personalities of individuals with whom you disagree into these discussions and then making snide remarks about how none of the rest of us know what the heck we are talking about or are worthy enough to even be having this discussion with you. Therefore we are fools.

I have been called worse, Lino. Don't bother fighting with me. You win.

 

[Tom Wells]

When the 2's and 3's are down, most consumers probably figure something is wrong with their radio.
Their new, super-duper HD radio. Should they take it back or just be steamed?
They expect radio stations to be a little more dependable. They always have been before.
This leaves a bad taste, and if you're not there too often, people will stop looking for your signal.

All computers crash sometimes.

Why this design doesn't include polling and best 2 out-of 3 voting of computers is hard to understand.
Why not even a hot-backup that switches off on silence? Just.... nothing?

Ibiquity doesn't seem to have the same idea of 24/7 that the radio industry does.

My home-built but quite complex pt 15 AM has well over 99% uptime since built in 1992.
One part failure over 16 years, an electrolytic cap, besides normal tube life failures.
That's what I expected out of my design.

What was ibiquity's expected uptime percentage?

 

[Chuck]

When the 2's and 3's are down, most consumers probably figure something is wrong with their radio.
Their new, super-duper HD radio. Should they take it back or just be steamed?
They expect radio stations to be a little more dependable. They always have been before.
This leaves a bad taste, and if you're not there too often, people will stop looking for your signal.

All computers crash sometimes.

Why this design doesn't include polling and best 2 out-of 3 voting of computers is hard to understand.
Why not even a hot-backup that switches off on silence? Just.... nothing?

Ibiquity doesn't seem to have the same idea of 24/7 that the radio industry does.

My home-built but quite complex pt 15 AM has well over 99% uptime since built in 1992.
One part failure over 16 years, an electrolytic cap, besides normal tube life failures.
That's what I expected out of my design.

What was ibiquity's expected uptime percentage?

I think it is amusing that my new $10 Sony HD radio has a "reset" button on the back of it. The instructions say that you should hold it in for a few seconds in the event that the radio fails to operate or goes into a lock-up mode. I suspect this button exists because the designers figure you may need it. It is, after all, a computer.

I wonder if my Mother-in-Law would figure it out?

 

[Carmine5]

Crawford's engineering newsletter is out. I almost snorted out milk and lost a cookie when I read Cris Alexander's arguments on the slow progress of HD Radio's rollout.

http://www.crawfordbroadcasting.com/~cbc/Local_Oscillator/June 2008 Local Oscillator.pdf

Comparing HD Radio to the iPod he says:

"What about the iPod? Lots of people of all ages have them, but an awful lot do not. I don’t have one.
Neither do my siblings or most of my friends. And yet the...iPod is considered to be a successfully prolific platform.

Which brings us back to HD Radio. I have two. My wife has one. My daughter has one. Her
boyfriend has one. My boss has one...we have more HD Radios than we do MP3 players. Does that say something?"

It says absolutely zero. I would expect nothing less from a radio engineer and HD Radio proponent. But is he and his family and friends typical? Of course not!

Like the time Steve Ballmer told an interviewer that he would never let his daughter have an iPod. But she does have a Zune. Would I expect anything other than this from a head honcho at Microsoft? No. But is his family typical? Of course not.

I still haven't figured out what point Cris was making with his comparison of ownership of HD Radio vs. an iPod but it sure was funny.

C5

 

[Play Freebird]

There are several reasons why HD reliability suffers in comparison with FM analog:

1) The "importer" (which encodes HD-2 and -3 channels) runs on a Windows platform.

2) A couple of years ago, iBiquity realized that installation of a Windows PC at a transmitter site (subject to lightning, RF, power glitches, temperature variations, etc) isn't a very good idea, and now recommends that the Importer be located at the studio, which is usually a more suitable environment for sensitive electronics.

3) However, this configuration requires an Ethernet connection from studio to transmitter, which in many cases is less reliable than a good-old-fashioned 950 MHz analog STL. Some stations have attempted to use unlicensed spectrum (for example, 915 MHz LanLink) with disappointing results. This paper discusses the challenges of transporting data from studio to transmitter. It costs a lot of money to do it right, so most owners don't:

http://www.bdcast.com/fgal/white_paper/Network_and_STL_for_HD_BCEWHP.pdf


4) Large radio groups have cut back on engineering staff under the false assumption that their expensive new digital equipment is so wondrously reliable that it doesn't require maintenance. Gullible executives at these companies seem to think that the mere act of spending millions of CapEx dollars on HD Radio gear will somehow "position them for the future", without understanding that stations still require qualified people.


5) Many stations have only one HD-capable transmitter. When it fails, the analog can be restored (thanks to that 25-year-old FM backup rig) but HD is down until repairs to the main system can be made.


6) Some stations must use an auxiliary antenna to transmit the HD signal. During tower maintenance, or in case of failure of the main antenna, the analog transmitter must be patched into the aux antenna, so it's goodbye HD. Who's listening to that, anyway?

 

[Savage]

Carmine, thanks for the link to The Local (Crawford) Oscillator - what a howler!!

It goes to show the lengths to which an HD Radio zealot will torture logic with insistence that the system is anything but an abysmal failure. Alexander actually argues - apparently with a straight face - that microwave ovens and cellular phones are "transitional technologies!"

I guess they are. Much in the same way the automobile is a "transitional technology" between the horse and the Star Trek live-organism transporter.

I repeat: any engineering staff with the time to gassify endlessly with self-aggrandizing house-organ nonsense, primarily peddled to fellow engineers to reassure everyone "our company is sooo cool and cutting edge!" doesn't have enough to do, and is thus a prime candidate for cuts.

 

[LinoNYC]

Carmine, thanks for the link to The Local (Crawford) Oscillator - what a howler!!

It goes to show the lengths to which an HD Radio zealot will torture logic with insistence that the system is anything but an abysmal failure. Alexander actually argues - apparently with a straight face - that microwave ovens and cellular phones are "transitional technologies!"

I guess they are. Much in the same way the automobile is a "transitional technology" between the horse and the Star Trek live-organism transporter.

I repeat: (you mean you have said this before?)any engineering staff with the time to gassify endlessly with self-aggrandizing house-organ nonsense, primarily peddled to fellow engineers to reassure everyone "our company is sooo cool and cutting edge!" doesn't have enough to do, and is thus a prime candidate for cuts.

How nice. Somebody with knowledge and experiance in this technology writes a positive opinion -and kindly ol' Bob Savage advocates for his termination.

What a human.

You are becoming increasingly bitter, irrational and obsessed. You need to give it a break.

The writer made valid points, ones that I have made here before and gotten similar flack for. The fact is that the iboc technology is just starting to filter into public consicence.

Given today's media reality nothing that radio does is going to steal the show. IBOC if it succeeds will do-so in a gradual manner.

This past sunday I was in two Circuit City and two Best buy stores (computer parts on sale) The stores in Chelsea, 14th st and Upper east side were all packed, I looked at the radio/stereo sections in each no one in any of them.

All the action was in HDTV, computers, IPOD accessories and home theater systems.

That is symptomatic of what radio is up against in trying to update it's technology.

And your suggestion: Attack and fire anybody the voices approval of this system.

Great job.

Lino

 

[kyscott]

There are several reasons why HD reliability suffers in comparison with FM analog:
1) The "importer" (which encodes HD-2 and -3 channels) runs on a Windows platform.
2) A couple of years ago, iBiquity realized that installation of a Windows PC at a transmitter site (subject to lightning, RF, power glitches, temperature variations, etc) isn't a very good idea, and now recommends that the Importer be located at the studio, which is usually a more suitable environment for sensitive electronics.
3) However, this configuration requires an Ethernet connection from studio to transmitter, which in many cases is less reliable than a good-old-fashioned 950 MHz analog STL. Some stations have attempted to use unlicensed spectrum (for example, 915 MHz LanLink) with disappointing results. This paper discusses the challenges of transporting data from studio to transmitter. It costs a lot of money to do it right, so most owners don't:
http://www.bdcast.com/fgal/white_paper/Network_and_STL_for_HD_BCEWHP.pdf
4) Large radio groups have cut back on engineering staff under the false assumption that their expensive new digital equipment is so wondrously reliable that it doesn't require maintenance. Gullible executives at these companies seem to think that the mere act of spending millions of CapEx dollars on HD Radio gear will somehow "position them for the future", without understanding that stations still require qualified people.
5) Many stations have only one HD-capable transmitter. When it fails, the analog can be restored (thanks to that 25-year-old FM backup rig) but HD is down until repairs to the main system can be made.
6) Some stations must use an auxiliary antenna to transmit the HD signal. During tower maintenance, or in case of failure of the main antenna, the analog transmitter must be patched into the aux antenna, so it's goodbye HD. Who's listening to that, anyway?

In the words of Lewis M Grizzard, a great American, "Tell it all brother"! You have pretty much hit the nail on the head with your assessment Freebird.

 

[kenglish]

During a recent snowstorm (yes, we have had a wierd spring in Utah), the sat feed of WRN went down on the local community FM (KRCL). I called the board op, a volunteer, and he knew nothing about it.

After the next record, he announced that "a listener has called in and said we are off the air, so if you can't hear me, I apologize".

I just wish station employees knew what an HD Radio is. It's almost as bad as TV, where no one at the station (besides engineers) has a clue about the new technology.

 

[Savage]

...as Play Freebird frequently does.

BTW, Cris Alexander chose to devote considerable space in Crawford's "The Local Oscillator" to a smug, self-serving diatribe on the wonders of HD Radio which publicly ridiculed WYSL by name. This occurred as our nighttime service was being severely compromised by this idiotic hybrid system, as its apologists kept insisting against all evidence that there was no detrimental nighttime skywave problem. Thus is revealed another wonderful unintended consequence of HD: pitting broadcasters against each other for the sake of survival. Now, THAT'S a great way to "save radio!"

Thus: "The Local Oscillator" is fair game, as are Mr. Alexander and his obedient little Crawford solder-jockeys who send nonsensical pro-IBOC letter-bombs to trades like RW on cue - and which are dismissed by rational readers as so much more HD denial.

More laughers from TLO's most recent piteous pro-IBOC bleat: the tired comparison of technological rollouts - say it with me! "FM Stereo!" "Color TV!" HD doesn't compare with those technologies. They were successful. They actually worked. There was a demand for them.

It would be more appropriate to compare HD Radio with the incompatible, UHF-only electromechanical color TV system (another fine CBS innovation) with its whopping 205 lines of resolution, the dual-tonearm Cook Stereo Phono Disc, Crosley's Read-O overnight slow-scan fax service or longitudinal-scan videotape (operating at a bazillion IPS.) There is a long trail of bleached bones from unwanted "innovations" which never worked acceptably anyway.

I hope Alexander enjoys sharing those Civil Defense survival biscuits down in the HD Radio bunker with Glynn Walden.