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does New York have 3 dance stations?

does New York have 3 dance stations?

so we have:
92.3 NOW
103.5 KTU
and to a lesser degree, Z100.

I've been sampling these stations for the last several weeks and although they lack the cutting edge "alternative" dance tracks, top 40 radio today is basically dance. The only difference between Pulse 87 several years ago and the way top 40 has evolved today is the lack of the alternative stuff. It'd certainly be easy enough for one of these stations to rebrand themselves as rhythmic/chr and step up the dance with Swedish House mix for example but if you look at today's billboard dance charts almost everything on there is played on top 40 radio.
..and really at the end of the day when you have David Guetta all over top 40 radio dance is pretty much mainstream.

It's amazing how mainstream top 40 has evolved over the last 2 years!
 
Re: does New York have 3 dance stations?

There are three stations playing "electro-pop" which is what this latest flavor is often called. It's sanitized "dance" music for Americans, complete with the hip-hop, R&B and pop vocalists they've come to know and love over the years. The sound is being adapted for the American audience, but it's a far cry from the house, trance and dubstep tracks that get played regularly in other parts of the world. Sure, electropop songs are getting played at the clubs, because they're popular radio hits here. This country is nowhere close to fully embracing dance music, and programmers are fearful of taking a chance on real dance tracks. Occasionally there's a song that breaks through, like a Martin Soleveig "Hello" or Calvin Harris "Feels So Close" but those are few and far between.
 
Re: does New York have 3 dance stations?

Maybe the reason the music is "adjusted" for Americans is that the other forms of dance will never go farther than the clubs and an online audience.

If the market would support house and trance, it would be out there by now.

Dubstep is a different story though, with Deadmau5 on the Grammys.
 
Re: does New York have 3 dance stations?

Just 5 years ago, we thought today's electro sound wouldn't be mainstream. Now look where we are!
We don't even have a cutting-edge dance station on HD. It is possible to put 3 music formats and a talk format on HD (such as 101.9 in Baltimore) without it sounding bad. So why can't CBS add a dance format (or even just a simulcast of B96-HD2 Chicago or Area 95.5-HD2 DC) on 92.3-HD2 or HD3 and keep K-Rock and the WFAN simulcast?

Minneapolis has a nice dance station on 101.3 KDWB-HD2 which is simulcast on a flea powered translator on 102.5. Although I expect that the HD2 and translator's format will change once it upgrades to 250 watts and moves to the top of the IDS Center, it's nice that Clear Channel is giving dance a chance in a place that dance music isn't that popular, even on a translator that can only be heard a few miles.
 
Re: does New York have 3 dance stations?

It is possible to put 3 music formats and a talk format on HD (such as 101.9 in Baltimore) without it sounding bad.

I beg to differ. 4 HDs running on one carrier sound like crap. SBR fake high end all over the place. 3 is pushing it pretty far, unless the third station is talk and you can drop the bitrate really low and go mono.

Then what's the point of "HD" when it sounds like a webstream?

And why bother unless there's a translator involved, because nobody can hear it anyway. The public is very unaware of "HD", especially according to the latest survey from the NAB.
 
Re: does New York have 3 dance stations?

Don't let Tony Santiago see this page..... "THere is not a dance music station here because they don't play people the regular crowd has never heard of.
 
Re: does New York have 3 dance stations?

I don't know if I would say there's 3 Dance Stations...but seeing and hearing Avicii's Levels at 14 on Z100's playlist right now surely tells Top 40 has come a long long long way...
 
Re: does New York have 3 dance stations?

fmradio1 said:
There are three stations playing "electro-pop" which is what this latest flavor is often called. It's sanitized "dance" music for Americans, complete with the hip-hop, R&B and pop vocalists they've come to know and love over the years. The sound is being adapted for the American audience, but it's a far cry from the house, trance and dubstep tracks that get played regularly in other parts of the world. Sure, electropop songs are getting played at the clubs, because they're popular radio hits here. This country is nowhere close to fully embracing dance music, and programmers are fearful of taking a chance on real dance tracks. Occasionally there's a song that breaks through, like a Martin Soleveig "Hello" or Calvin Harris "Feels So Close" but those are few and far between.

I agree that it's sanitized dance music for Americans but that music sells and it sells in Europe too. The difference in Europe is that you can also sell the edgier dance which is completely ignored by american radio.

There are some new artists however that have soared to stardom by selling this so called electro pop such as Lady Gaga to name one.
If the current trend remains perhaps studies will eventually show that the american listening audience is ready for more cutting edge dance.
Alot of it is a matter of exposure.
 
Re: does New York have 3 dance stations?

wpb1999 said:
Don't let Tony Santiago see this page..... "THere is not a dance music station here because they don't play people the regular crowd has never heard of.

TOO LATE

Scuse me wpb1999 while I pull you off my back since you're on me like a disease! ::) Dude, what's up with you, especially with a quote I NEVER said??

I'm going to answer it this way and I've said it many times. People may agree with me or disagree with me and that's fine. 'KTU, 92.3 Now and Z-100 may play these dance/rhythmic tracks (or as fmradio1 calls it "electro pop") but they are not dance stations. DriveFX in the Hudson Valley region of New York is a dance station. Yes, they play the commercial aspect and I understand why, but they do get cutting edge. That's what will get people exposed to dance music here.

Granted from a core point of view this really stinks with the way things are because a lot of us know (and yet you will have the doubters such as wpb1999 and MarcR that I believe are more on bashing me than talking about the music, love or hate, with some sort of validity). But then again, there are less core fans than there are these "casual" fans that listen to dance music in this country and are stuck on what is being given out by corporate radio now, thus "sanitized". I definitely want more of our brand on the radio but at the same time we have to get these casual fans over somehow because if they like what they are hearing now, albeit sanitized, then we have to get them exposed to more edgier stuff along the way (I agree on that Jeffrey). Corporate is taking "small steps" (the Avicii Bud Light commercial for one ). More has to happen because EDM is riding VERY high right now and I really don't think most advertisers have a handle on what to do. And if it has to take these "electro pop" tracks to make it happen, then I'm supportive and certainly not bashing on it.

I don't necessarily have to agree about that direction, but then again 5 years ago outside of the core fan base, none of the casual folks have ever heard of David Guetta, Avicii, Benny Benassi, Laidback Luke, Calvin Harris, etc. So we are making strides in that sense. Perhaps not as fast as we'd like it to be, but we are much better now than 5 years ago.
 
Re: does New York have 3 dance stations?

Tony, I've been reading your pleas for a New York dance station for years, and respect your dedication to this goal.
What I still fail to understand is a clear reason why WKTU is not satisfying the average person that likes dance music (but is not obsessed with it). Doesn't it play the mainstream dance hits, while mixing in older stuff, along with some rhythmic pop? And it is by all measures very successful and very entrenched in this market. I believe the problem for you and other hard core dance music purists is that there are not nearly enough people like you in this market who don't find WKTU to be acceptable, to support a more focused dance station.
As you know, successful commercial music stations play the biggest, best known hits, and avoid stuff that is more obscure to the casual listener. That may not satisfy musical purists, but does a lot for the bottom line.
As an example, I am into country music. And I think that a lot of the stuff played on country stations sucks, because it is not really country, and very country sounding artists are generally avoided. But the overwhelming majority of successful country stations focus on the current (often pop sounding) hits, and similar songs going back about 10 years.
Fans of pure dance and real country music have many sources other than radio to hear what they want, and need to accept that.
 
Re: does New York have 3 dance stations?

Barry said:
Tony, I've been reading your pleas for a New York dance station for years, and respect your dedication to this goal.
What I still fail to understand is a clear reason why WKTU is not satisfying the average person that likes dance music (but is not obsessed with it). Doesn't it play the mainstream dance hits, while mixing in older stuff, along with some rhythmic pop? And it is by all measures very successful and very entrenched in this market. I believe the problem for you and other hard core dance music purists is that there are not nearly enough people like you in this market who don't find WKTU to be acceptable, to support a more focused dance station.
As you know, successful commercial music stations play the biggest, best known hits, and avoid stuff that is more obscure to the casual listener. That may not satisfy musical purists, but does a lot for the bottom line.
As an example, I am into country music. And I think that a lot of the stuff played on country stations sucks, because it is not really country, and very country sounding artists are generally avoided. But the overwhelming majority of successful country stations focus on the current (often pop sounding) hits, and similar songs going back about 10 years.
Fans of pure dance and real country music have many sources other than radio to hear what they want, and need to accept that.

Barry, I've "been accepted" about the alternate choices out there. ;D I'm on Party Radio USA myself doing a dance music show there and while my first hour is mainly on the commercial potential side, the second hour and DJ Spotlight get very edgy. For me, it's my mission to push the new stuff out there and give that exposure. :)

To answer on 'KTU, between 1996 - 2006 I was critical because I thought they could have done more with newer dance music instead of playing "I Will Survive" for the umpteenth time. Looking back now and talking to those that were part of that station, I do realize that they did that the best that they could and was "held back" from doing further by corporate. I have since made my apologies about that. Right now, they are doing great in the ratings but then they are catering to the women 25-54, those that MIGHT HAVE gone to the clubs in the past but have since been far removed from it for various reasons (raising families for one). For them, they like what they hear and are comfortable with that "feel good" commercial sound (which answers that question about the average fan), but for dance fans such as myself (and even the casual fan under 25) we don't embrace it. With the only exception being Hollywood Hamilton's Remix Top 30 show, 'KTU - post 2006 - is not about us. And certainly not for those under 25.

Granted, 92.3 Now is a CHR, but they do more in terms of dance as 'KTU does, albeit "electro pop". I'm not complaining on that because if the exposure on that can eventually get people to open up to more, then that is fine :).

I think over the years, some of you have been confused in terms of my definition of what I have been looking for. And perhaps on my side I wasn't that clear enough. So to that here we go...I'm looking for a DRIVE FX style station 70 miles south of where they are (New Windsor, NY). They DO play the electro pop and I understand and accepted why because YES, you need that commercial element that people are familiar with. Yet they are also VERY cutting edge during the day, not just night time DJ mixes. They put on an excellent blend and based on some of the events I've attended up in the Hudson Valley, the club scene up there has picked up well because of it.

I know there are the alternatives out there, yet there is still something about FM radio that breeds that familiarity to the listeners. And until streaming car stereos become the standard in future automobiles, terrestrial radio still has a place. That's why I'm still fighting on that. I also feel country music now on the FM can do well here because it's a much different ballgame than it was years ago, for the better. It's the same with dance/EDM.
 
Re: does New York have 3 dance stations?

Tony Santiago said:
Barry said:
Tony, I've been reading your pleas for a New York dance station for years, and respect your dedication to this goal.
What I still fail to understand is a clear reason why WKTU is not satisfying the average person that likes dance music (but is not obsessed with it). Doesn't it play the mainstream dance hits, while mixing in older stuff, along with some rhythmic pop? And it is by all measures very successful and very entrenched in this market. I believe the problem for you and other hard core dance music purists is that there are not nearly enough people like you in this market who don't find WKTU to be acceptable, to support a more focused dance station.
As you know, successful commercial music stations play the biggest, best known hits, and avoid stuff that is more obscure to the casual listener. That may not satisfy musical purists, but does a lot for the bottom line.
As an example, I am into country music. And I think that a lot of the stuff played on country stations sucks, because it is not really country, and very country sounding artists are generally avoided. But the overwhelming majority of successful country stations focus on the current (often pop sounding) hits, and similar songs going back about 10 years.
Fans of pure dance and real country music have many sources other than radio to hear what they want, and need to accept that.

Barry, I've "been accepted" about the alternate choices out there. ;D I'm on Party Radio USA myself doing a dance music show there and while my first hour is mainly on the commercial potential side, the second hour and DJ Spotlight get very edgy. For me, it's my mission to push the new stuff out there and give that exposure. :)

To answer on 'KTU, between 1996 - 2006 I was critical because I thought they could have done more with newer dance music instead of playing "I Will Survive" for the umpteenth time. Looking back now and talking to those that were part of that station, I do realize that they did that the best that they could and was "held back" from doing further by corporate. I have since made my apologies about that. Right now, they are doing great in the ratings but then they are catering to the women 25-54, those that MIGHT HAVE gone to the clubs in the past but have since been far removed from it for various reasons (raising families for one). For them, they like what they hear and are comfortable with that "feel good" commercial sound (which answers that question about the average fan), but for dance fans such as myself (and even the casual fan under 25) we don't embrace it. With the only exception being Hollywood Hamilton's Remix Top 30 show, 'KTU - post 2006 - is not about us. And certainly not for those under 25.

Granted, 92.3 Now is a CHR, but they do more in terms of dance as 'KTU does, albeit "electro pop". I'm not complaining on that because if the exposure on that can eventually get people to open up to more, then that is fine :).

I think over the years, some of you have been confused in terms of my definition of what I have been looking for. And perhaps on my side I wasn't that clear enough. So to that here we go...I'm looking for a DRIVE FX style station 70 miles south of where they are (New Windsor, NY). They DO play the electro pop and I understand and accepted why because YES, you need that commercial element that people are familiar with. Yet they are also VERY cutting edge during the day, not just night time DJ mixes. They put on an excellent blend and based on some of the events I've attended up in the Hudson Valley, the club scene up there has picked up well because of it.

I know there are the alternatives out there, yet there is still something about FM radio that breeds that familiarity to the listeners. And until streaming car stereos become the standard in future automobiles, terrestrial radio still has a place. That's why I'm still fighting on that. I also feel country music now on the FM can do well here because it's a much different ballgame than it was years ago, for the better. It's the same with dance/EDM.

Tony, I believe you are incorrect that WKTU is not "embraced" by young people that enjoy dance music. In the latest PPM's, they were #4 in the lucrative 18-34 demo. You may be correct that individuals that are very into dance may be dissatisfied with it. But the ratings indicate 'KTU is listened to buy a lot of young people that like dance music but are not so hardcore that they don't also enjoy other types of rhythmic music.
And as you pointed out yourself, 92 Now plays some of the more "cutting edge" dance. They would provide additional competition for the younger demos, to a potential dance-oriented station. Not to mention Z100 and suburban CHR's.

Drive F/X upstate, as you know, is a syndicated service carried on an HD subchannel that is rebroadcast on a translator or two. There is no doubt a good business reason why this is on a low power arrangement, rather than a conventional FM station.
 
Re: does New York have 3 dance stations?

I'm just impressed that Clear Channel has a cutting-edge dance format in Minneapolis on an HD2 and a (flea powered) translator. Even if it's just temporary, the fact that Clear Channel's operating a dance station there is great. They're not even simulcasting Club Phusion, it's locally programmed. Wish they could do the same in NYC like they did one day on 106.3.
 
Re: does New York have 3 dance stations?

That "flea powered" translator is 41 watts at almost 800' HAAT, right smack in the middle of the city. It's not like it's some 4 watt translator 100' off the ground. If you look at the coverage, it's pretty impressive for what it is.

There is an application to go 250 watts, at roughly 850' HAAT. You're almost into class A territory with that kind of signal.
 
Re: does New York have 3 dance stations?

Barry said:
Tony, I believe you are incorrect that WKTU is not "embraced" by young people that enjoy dance music. In the latest PPM's, they were #4 in the lucrative 18-34 demo. You may be correct that individuals that are very into dance may be dissatisfied with it. But the ratings indicate 'KTU is listened to buy a lot of young people that like dance music but are not so hardcore that they don't also enjoy other types of rhythmic music.
And as you pointed out yourself, 92 Now plays some of the more "cutting edge" dance. They would provide additional competition for the younger demos, to a potential dance-oriented station. Not to mention Z100 and suburban CHR's.

Drive F/X upstate, as you know, is a syndicated service carried on an HD subchannel that is rebroadcast on a translator or two. There is no doubt a good business reason why this is on a low power arrangement, rather than a conventional FM station.

The one thing I laugh at when I get an argument about the PPM is that, yeah, the station was number 4. But the one thing that is missing are the people BEHIND the number 4. Are some of them TRULY listening to 'KTU because they like how it sounds? Or are they tuning in because:

1) They are in their parents car.
2) Since they claim they are "New York's Dance Music Leader" according to billboards, then it must be so.
3) They think of a "Now" or "Z" as too "edgy" because even though it's "sanitized" dance, they will play a lot more current based music than a 'KTU would; as well as 'KTU playing more "women friendly" material such as a Jessie J, Selena Gomez, etc. I'll call it out, 'KTU is a "rhythmic" Fresh 102.7. For what they are, they're doing great and I'm not knocking it but for dance music fans, 'KTU has not been the cup o' tea since '06..even BEFORE the tweak (once Broadway Bill Lee and Vic Latino left).

The only elements of that station that have some dance to it are the Hollywood Hamilton syndicated shows. But that's really it. I think those that are listening to 'KTU at that age are doing so because there really is nothing else for them until you go outside of FM radio or digital media players.

Now to DriveFX. It is "syndicated" but the syndication runs out of THERE (as in WJGK/WGNY's studios in New Windsor, NY). How would I know this? Because I've gotten to know the people up there and have witnessed their operations first hand. They have OTHER formats (business, country) and translators too as well as other HDs. But based on their Internet streams, the largest following of all of these stations is DRIVE FX. They are making waves.

And so what if they're on translators! If you can hear them on 94.1 or 95.7 in the region, you're HEARING them. Outside of radio geeks, no one is going to care about whether or not a station is on a translator. To the listener, they're hearing great music and if they like what they're hearing they will stay glued to it. Can things improve on that station? Of course...but that can be said for ANY station, even a K-104 whose powerful stick gets everyone between NYC and Albany. Point is, they're DOING something and a station like that is what is exactly needed 70 miles south of there.

Just because the PPM numbers say what they say, doesn't necessarily mean that you're going to get the real story out of it.
 
Re: does New York have 3 dance stations?

WNTIRadio said:
That "flea powered" translator is 41 watts at almost 800' HAAT, right smack in the middle of the city. It's not like it's some 4 watt translator 100' off the ground. If you look at the coverage, it's pretty impressive for what it is.

There is an application to go 250 watts, at roughly 850' HAAT. You're almost into class A territory with that kind of signal.

Except its signal sucks, it can only be heard for a few miles and it's shortspaced to KQIC. KDWB's HD signal can be heard for 40 miles.
 
Re: does New York have 3 dance stations?

Wow, I have been listening to Pulse 87, I gotta say Night and day to KTU. Yes there is some of the top 40 thrown in and some overlap but not nearly as much as what you see on the dial currently. You still hear some great new dance music, such as Kim Sozzi Crystallized, and Jus Jack One day at a time. You DON'T hear any of that on KTU, all you hear is the washed up dance songs that have been played to adnausium on NOW and Z 100 weeks in advance. KTU only seems to play Kim Sozzi Feel your love and stopped. So I give cedit to Pulse for setting itself apart from the rest. KTU bores me , Pulse is still cutting edge, in my opinion.
 
Re: does New York have 3 dance stations?

NY has 3 dance stations? That's like saying NY has 4 Hip Hop stations cause you hear it on Hot 97,Power 105,92.3 and Z100.

KTU is like the dance station your mom or aunt listens too.92.3 is for the suburban NJ crowd. And Z is just a plain chr station that has to play more dancier music because of the market they're in. I think that part of the problem with having a dance station in NY is that it's lacking that home grown movement of artists to fuel this is "my music" feel to a station. It's great to see Deadmau3 and the David Guetta types get attention but NY has a dance music history that is being ignored.

And when not if 92.3 flips to Sport will another station flip to dance....perhaps Amor?
 
Re: does New York have 3 dance stations?

NOW, to me, is only a few degrees away from becoming this decade's analog to WBMX in the 80s. It just needs some specialty shows.

On an unrelated note, I love what's going on 102.7 and would like for you all to cease calls for changing literally the one of literally only two HDs playing anything new and interesting.

The 97.1 hd-2 stream is clearly a favor to someone. Maybe wcbs can do away with Jack/Tony. Z100s has an hd stream. Please, seek a frequency elsewhere.
 
Re: does New York have 3 dance stations?

Z100's HD2 is almost exactly like the main format. CBS-FM's HD2 is Tony, which used to be Jack. People didn't like Jack so why revive it on HD? Here's a crazy idea, perhaps Tony Santiago should program Tony's format.
 
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