DSPX AGC before Optimod

[Rafael]

> > > Hi All
> > >
> > > Just wondered whether any of you guys have used a DSP-X
> > unit
> > > purely for AGC purposes before an Optimod 8400?
> > >
> > > Is it something you would recommend? Are there
> noticeable
> > > benefits?
> > >
> > > Many Thanks for your time...
> > >
> >
> >
> > Thanks guys for all your feedback on this one ...
> obviously
> > I don't intend to run both boxes together. The plan is to
> > use ONLY the wideband AGC in the DSP-X, disabling the AGC
> in
> > the 8400. I've heard that the AGC in the 8400 is weak,
> hence
> > my line of thought.
> >
> > I'm trying to get it the 8400 to sound as loud and ballsy
> as
> > a competitors Omnia 6....without much success, hence why
> I'm
> > trying everything. Might just need to persuade the GM to
> > sign a cheque for and Omnia!
>
> Ahhh just a thought but have you tried contacting Orban and
> asking them for help?? I know Bob Orban would be happy to
> look at your settings and come up with suggestions. You paid
> a lot of money for the 8400....are you running the latest
> software? Why spend more money on a Omnia (which in my
> opinion can not sound as good as an Optimod..and I have
> worked on both).
>
I have contacted Orban before and their advice was to, 'look in the manual'. How hard can the Final Clip drive be pushed before it gets really nasty? I'm using a slow multiband release which sounds nice, but doesn't give the loudness. The manual suggests a limit of -0.5, but the box allows you to go to +5.0. What's the maximum anyone on here has pushed it to, without it completely hitting the wall?

 

[FFoti]

Group,

I've been lurking on this thread. We'd be happy to help Rafael with his processing situation. Please contact us offline to further discuss.

BTW: I'd be happy to compare your experiences with the Omnia and the Optimod. Thought it worthy to point out that Omnia.6 outsells the 8400/8500 by a 5:1 margin. That doesn't happen by accident. The performance and A/B comparisons up against other products is what sells the box.

Regards,

-Frank Foti

<snip>

> > I'm trying to get it the 8400 to sound as loud and ballsy
> as
> > a competitors Omnia 6....without much success, hence why
> I'm
> > trying everything. Might just need to persuade the GM to
> > sign a cheque for and Omnia!
>
> Ahhh just a thought but have you tried contacting Orban and
> asking them for help?? I know Bob Orban would be happy to
> look at your settings and come up with suggestions. You paid
> a lot of money for the 8400....are you running the latest
> software? Why spend more money on a Omnia (which in my
> opinion can not sound as good as an Optimod..and I have
> worked on both).
>

 

[westlife]

> I have contacted Orban before and their advice was to, 'look
> in the manual'. How hard can the Final Clip drive be pushed
> before it gets really nasty? I'm using a slow multiband
> release which sounds nice, but doesn't give the loudness.
> The manual suggests a limit of -0.5, but the box allows you
> to go to +5.0. What's the maximum anyone on here has pushed
> it to, without it completely hitting the wall?

Ultimate loudness is not the be-all and end-all of audio processing. Try making your station sound BETTER than the competition, not just LOUDER. Your station's listening audience will thank you with increased TSL, and your ears will thank you as well!

<P ID="signature">______________

"This is the New York Emergency Broadcast System satellite channel. They took the crosstown bus."</P>

 

[Jimprewitt1954]

> > I have contacted Orban before and their advice was to,
> 'look
> > in the manual'. How hard can the Final Clip drive be
> pushed
> > before it gets really nasty? I'm using a slow multiband
> > release which sounds nice, but doesn't give the loudness.
> > The manual suggests a limit of -0.5, but the box allows
> you
> > to go to +5.0. What's the maximum anyone on here has
> pushed
> > it to, without it completely hitting the wall?
>
> Ultimate loudness is not the be-all and end-all of audio
> processing. Try making your station sound BETTER than the
> competition, not just LOUDER. Your station's listening
> audience will thank you with increased TSL, and your ears
> will thank you as well!


AMEN!
>
<P ID="signature">______________
Lead, follow or get out of the way...

And remember, the early bird may get the worm, but the second mouse gets the cheese.

</P>

 

[CW]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

> I have contacted Orban before and their advice was to, 'look
> in the manual'. How hard can the Final Clip drive be pushed
> before it gets really nasty? I'm using a slow multiband
> release which sounds nice, but doesn't give the loudness.
> The manual suggests a limit of -0.5, but the box allows you
> to go to +5.0. What's the maximum anyone on here has pushed
> it to, without it completely hitting the wall?

Well, I contact Bob at Orban....sent him a copy of your email...and here is his exact reply:
-----------------------------------------------------------------------
When I see "we can't be loud" complaints, the first thing that comes to mind is overshoot in the transmission path and/or the modulation indicating instrument. All else being equal, the 8400 and Omnia are comparable in loudness and punch; there are real differences, but they are mainly in the realm of texture, source-to-source consistency, and voice distortion; 8400 is more consistent and has lower voice distortion. But to achieve maximum loudness, you must use the 8400's composite output and composite limiter to drive a stereo generator (encoder) with essentially zero bounce or overshoot. The modulation must be measured with a modulation monitor having essentially zero bounce and overshoot. (Any recent Belar will meet this requirement; we prefer the "Wizard" series.)

When measuring on-air loudness against a competitor, you have to make sure that both stations have the same peak modulation level. It is not uncommon for competitors to "cheat" by overmodulating.

A somewhat off the wall but still important thing to check in the 8400 is whether the ITU 412 multiplex power controller is turned off in the 8400.

Regarding the 8400's AGC, this is fully competent and there would be no benefit in using a DSPx in place of it. The 8400's AGC is a 2-band device with window gating, and the broadcast engineers we hear from tell us that it fixed all of the shortcomings of the AGCs in the older Orban digital processors like the 8200 and 2200. In fact, we believe that using more than 2 bands in an AGC is counterproductive because the unflat dynamic frequency response produced by a 3+ band AGC can fight with later multiband processing and one can end up with a "10 monkeys randomly adjusting tone controls" kind of texture.
---------------------------------------------------------------------------

 

[FFoti]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

Prior to this year (2005), comparable A/B testing of the Optimod 8400/8500 and Omnia.6 reveals that voice quality is relatively the same. Now, we have added the LoIMD Clipper function to the Omnia.6 and that takes performance to the next step beyond the capabilities of the 8400/8500 or any other processor.

LoIMD algorithms allows the processor to reduce, and in some cases eliminate, clipper induced IMD. This adds increased clarity and detail while retaining the same level of aparent loudness.

As of yet, we have not noticed this function in other products.

-Frank Foti

Bob Orban writes:

> When I see "we can't be loud" complaints, the first thing
> that comes to mind is overshoot in the transmission path
> and/or the modulation indicating instrument. All else being
> equal, the 8400 and Omnia are comparable in loudness and
> punch; there are real differences, but they are mainly in
> the realm of texture, source-to-source consistency, and
> voice distortion; 8400 is more consistent and has lower
> voice distortion.

 

[westlife]

Uh-oh....

> Bob Orban writes:
> > All else being equal, the 8400 and Omnia are comparable in loudness
> > and punch; there are real differences, but they are mainly in the
> > realm of texture, source-to-source consistency, and voice distortion;
> > 8400 is more consistent and has lower voice distortion.
>
> Prior to this year (2005), comparable A/B testing of the
> Optimod 8400/8500 and Omnia.6 reveals that voice quality is
> relatively the same. Now, we have added the LoIMD Clipper
> function to the Omnia.6 and that takes performance to the
> next step beyond the capabilities of the 8400/8500 or any
> other processor.
>
> LoIMD algorithms allows the processor to reduce, and in some
> cases eliminate, clipper induced IMD. This adds increased
> clarity and detail while retaining the same level of aparent
> loudness.
>
> As of yet, we have not noticed this function in other
> products.
>
> -Frank Foti

<P ID="signature">______________

"This is the New York Emergency Broadcast System satellite channel. They took the crosstown bus."</P>

 

[techie]

Re: Uh-oh....

Funny picture!

I love cats. I have two tomcats (well, used to be tomcats) and they fight all the time.

 

[FFoti]

Re: Uh-oh....

This is good!

I'm also a cat lover and have two of them at home, as well as two at our office. BTW: The office felines are named "Omnia" and "Zephyr."

-Frank Foti

> > Bob Orban writes:
> > > All else being equal, the 8400 and Omnia are comparable
> in loudness
> > > and punch; there are real differences, but they are
> mainly in the
> > > realm of texture, source-to-source consistency, and
> voice distortion;
> > > 8400 is more consistent and has lower voice distortion.
> >
> > Prior to this year (2005), comparable A/B testing of the
> > Optimod 8400/8500 and Omnia.6 reveals that voice quality
> is
> > relatively the same. Now, we have added the LoIMD Clipper
> > function to the Omnia.6 and that takes performance to the
> > next step beyond the capabilities of the 8400/8500 or any
> > other processor.
> >
> > LoIMD algorithms allows the processor to reduce, and in
> some
> > cases eliminate, clipper induced IMD. This adds increased
> > clarity and detail while retaining the same level of
> aparent
> > loudness.
> >
> > As of yet, we have not noticed this function in other
> > products.
> >
> > -Frank Foti
>

 

[dspxscott]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

Just because box A has a feature and box B doesn't, doesn't make it the better box. most processors have some unique feature and each has its own sound.

I am not trying to take anything away from any particular processor but the best advice I can give is to ignore the marketing hype from ALL manufacturers, listen to them all and pick the one YOU like. Be it Orban, Omnia, or one of the BW units.


IMHO Marketing hype and brand loyalty play a major part in all processor sales.

Best regards
Scott

 

[westlife]

Re: Uh-oh....

> This is good!
>
> I'm also a cat lover and have two of them at home, as well
> as two at our office. BTW: The office felines are named
> "Omnia" and "Zephyr."
>
> -Frank Foti

So do they meow louder than any other cats?
<P ID="signature">______________

"This is the New York Emergency Broadcast System satellite channel. They took the crosstown bus."</P>

 

[gtomas]

> Thanks guys for all your feedback on this one ... obviously
> I don't intend to run both boxes together. The plan is to
> use ONLY the wideband AGC in the DSP-X, disabling the AGC in
> the 8400. I've heard that the AGC in the 8400 is weak, hence
> my line of thought.

I would disagree with what you've heard. Speaking of FM processor's own input AGCs, it doesn't get much better than 8400's.

> I'm trying to get it the 8400 to sound as loud and ballsy as
> a competitors Omnia 6....without much success, hence why I'm
> trying everything. Might just need to persuade the GM to
> sign a cheque for and Omnia!

If you're hearing much difference in loudness between 8400 and Omnia-6, then it's most likely your competitor is over-modulating. Do you have a mod monitor to check their and your modulation?

These two processors come head to head in terms of loudness. Processor is not the problem here. Look into modulation...


Regards,
Goran Tomas

 

[1290wgli]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

Regarding Mr. Orban's comments, the 2 band AGC structure in his 8400 is similar to the PC-1100 sound card, which I own. The 2 band AGC has one or two sweet spots. Any other setting and you still can hear the audio being dragged down. Also, Orban AGC's seem to "run out of room" quickly if operators are not careful. The Omnia has a better AGC circuit... currently using one in the an Omnia 5AM and an Omnia 3 Turbo (that box is better with the extra stage of multiband processing).

The Ariane on the other hand has very few negative settings, and you can basically run it out of the box and have it sounding good. For source to source consistancy, none of the boxes are as consistant as w/o the Ariane. It has corrected the sins of the front ends of many AGC's... AM/FM.. ALL brands.

> Regarding the 8400's AGC, this is fully competent and there
> would be no benefit in using a DSPx in place of it. The
> 8400's AGC is a 2-band device with window gating, and the
> broadcast engineers we hear from tell us that it fixed all
> of the shortcomings of the AGCs in the older Orban digital
> processors like the 8200 and 2200. In fact, we believe that
> using more than 2 bands in an AGC is counterproductive
> because the unflat dynamic frequency response produced by a
> 3+ band AGC can fight with later multiband processing and
> one can end up with a "10 monkeys randomly adjusting tone
> controls" kind of texture.

 

[gtomas]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

> Just because box A has a feature and box B doesn't, doesn't
> make it the better box. most processors have some unique
> feature and each has its own sound.
>
> I am not trying to take anything away from any particular
> processor but the best advice I can give is to ignore the
> marketing hype from ALL manufacturers, listen to them all
> and pick the one YOU like. Be it Orban, Omnia, or one of the
> BW units.
>
>
> IMHO Marketing hype and brand loyalty play a major part in
> all processor sales.


These are all _excellent_ points that Scott makes and I agree with all of them!


Regards,
Goran Tomas

 

[gtomas]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

> Regarding Mr. Orban's comments, the 2 band AGC structure in
> his 8400 is similar to the PC-1100 sound card, which I own.
> The 2 band AGC has one or two sweet spots. Any other
> setting and you still can hear the audio being dragged down.
> Also, Orban AGC's seem to "run out of room" quickly if
> operators are not careful.

The AGCs in 1100 and 8400 are not the same. AGC in 1100 is basically copied from 8200 where AGC in 8400 is all new window-type, dual-mono (or matrix) and is in fact much, much better than the one in 8200 (and 1100). 8400 also gives you an opportunity to adjust ratio, attack and release times separately for both bands, etc. which you can't do in 1100.

Good news is that they are planning an update of 1100 which (I was told) will include the AGC from 8400

> The Ariane on the other hand has very few negative settings,
> and you can basically run it out of the box and have it
> sounding good. For source to source consistancy, none of
> the boxes are as consistant as w/o the Ariane. It has
> corrected the sins of the front ends of many AGC's...
> AM/FM.. ALL brands.

Haven't had an opportunity to try Ariane myself (yet), but I also heard only positive comments about it.


Regards,
Goran Tomas

 

[FFoti]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

Sorry Scott,

The LoIMD Clipper was designed to set Omnia apart from other offerings...including our own earier efforts. This is *NOT* marketing hype. The reason that new features are added is to take performance to the next level and raise the bar.

That's the *only* way progress evolves...

-Frank Foti

> Just because box A has a feature and box B doesn't, doesn't
> make it the better box. most processors have some unique
> feature and each has its own sound.
>
> I am not trying to take anything away from any particular
> processor but the best advice I can give is to ignore the
> marketing hype from ALL manufacturers, listen to them all
> and pick the one YOU like. Be it Orban, Omnia, or one of the
> BW units.
>
>
> IMHO Marketing hype and brand loyalty play a major part in
> all processor sales.
>
> Best regards
> Scott
>

 

[1290wgli]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

Basically, Orban and Omnia should outfit me with these boxes so they can be properly evaluated I would have known that if that were the case. I thought the 1100 was a dumbed down version of the 8400 AGC with less control.

> > Regarding Mr. Orban's comments, the 2 band AGC structure
> in
> > his 8400 is similar to the PC-1100 sound card, which I
> own.
> > The 2 band AGC has one or two sweet spots. Any other
> > setting and you still can hear the audio being dragged
> down.
> > Also, Orban AGC's seem to "run out of room" quickly if
> > operators are not careful.
>
> The AGCs in 1100 and 8400 are not the same. AGC in 1100 is
> basically copied from 8200 where AGC in 8400 is all new
> window-type, dual-mono (or matrix) and is in fact much, much
> better than the one in 8200 (and 1100). 8400 also gives you
> an opportunity to adjust ratio, attack and release times
> separately for both bands, etc. which you can't do in 1100.
>
> Good news is that they are planning an update of 1100 which
> (I was told) will include the AGC from 8400
>
> > The Ariane on the other hand has very few negative
> settings,
> > and you can basically run it out of the box and have it
> > sounding good. For source to source consistancy, none of
> > the boxes are as consistant as w/o the Ariane. It has
> > corrected the sins of the front ends of many AGC's...
> > AM/FM.. ALL brands.
>
> Haven't had an opportunity to try Ariane myself (yet), but I
> also heard only positive comments about it.
>
>
> Regards,
> Goran Tomas
>

 

[dspxscott]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

> Sorry Scott,
>
> The LoIMD Clipper was designed to set Omnia apart from other
> offerings...including our own earier efforts. This is *NOT*
> marketing hype. The reason that new features are added is to
> take performance to the next level and raise the bar.
>
> That's the *only* way progress evolves...
>

Frank
I wasn't referring to your processors or even mine. I was simply stating that processing is subjective and the only persons opinion that matters is the person who is purchasing the unit and that person should evaluate all the options.

IYO the LoIMD clipper makes your product better than the competition but the 'IYO' is the key thing here.

You may have a function called a LoIMD clipper but you may not have a diddlysqautvarireleasegate function that A N other manufacturer employs. Just because you choose to highlight that part of your product does not mean that the whole product will function better in a given customers application than another brand.

Granted, your product sales figures would seem to back up any claims that your products are better but VHS was not a better VCR technology than betamax! Which brings me back to marketing.

If marketing does not come in it to it then you could save yourself some money and cut back on all those multiple full page colour ad's in every radio publication. you have great products, no dispute about that, but your REALLY GOOD marketing and promotion have a big part to play.

The one word you left out when talking about what raises the bar is competition. It pushes manufacturers to keep 'raising the bar' and its great for the customer.

To summarise my ramblings. Omnia's are great, Orban's are great, the BW DSPX range of processors are great. Take your pick, have fun, live long!

Hope Cleveland's warmer than London.

Best regards
Scott

 

[RadioDoc]

Re: Uh-oh....

> > This is good!
> >
> > I'm also a cat lover and have two of them at home, as well
>
> > as two at our office. BTW: The office felines are named
> > "Omnia" and "Zephyr."
> >
> > -Frank Foti
>
> So do they meow louder than any other cats?
>

No, but I think it was the first Omnia that experienced a whole different kind of "clipping".

BTW Frank, I did enjoy your presentation on 5.1 with HD in Madison, WI back in October. It sure was an eye-opener!<P ID="signature">______________
</P>

 

[FFoti]

Re: DSPX AGC before Optimod (Bob Orban's reply)

Scott,

Your VHS analogy is good, but it does not reflect what transpired between Orban and Omnia. The VHS/Beta war occured during a time when both methods were relatively new. Better marketing won that one. Look at Apple and Microsoft. If not for Steve Jobs stubborness, Apple would probably be the kingpin of the PC world. But, Microsoft won due to marketing. The Omnia/Orban scenario is different.

When I got into this business Orban had something like an 80% - 85% marketshare worldwide!! Many thought I was crazy to even go there!! (I'm sure these same people are right about the crazy part, but that's another sotry!!)

When Omnia.fm was introduced in 1997, it gained popularity, not from marketing, but from performance. Most of the marketplace was already "comfortable" with the Optimod. They had no reason to switch, unless something that performed better came along. We had to literally beg some folks to even look at the unit, let alone demo it. Once they heard it, they had to listen again, and then finally they came to realize that Omnia.fm was indeed better than the Optimod because it performed better. That exercise doesn't occur due to marketing. Performance is how Omnia won, and performance is what keeps it winning.

Sure, we reinforce the message with marketing, but all the best marketing that money could buy would not have gotten us in the door in 1997, unless we had a better mousetrap.

That's my point.

Regards,

-Frank Foti

BTW: I'm looking at 2 inches of snow on the ground...AND...It's very cold outside.

> You may have a function called a LoIMD clipper but you may
> not have a diddlysqautvarireleasegate function that A N
> other manufacturer employs. Just because you choose to
> highlight that part of your product does not mean that the
> whole product will function better in a given customers
> application than another brand.
>
> Granted, your product sales figures would seem to back up
> any claims that your products are better but VHS was not a
> better VCR technology than betamax! Which brings me back to
> marketing.
>
> If marketing does not come in it to it then you could save
> yourself some money and cut back on all those multiple full
> page colour ad's in every radio publication. you have great
> products, no dispute about that, but your REALLY GOOD
> marketing and promotion have a big part to play.
>
> The one word you left out when talking about what raises the
> bar is competition. It pushes manufacturers to keep 'raising
> the bar' and its great for the customer.
>
> To summarise my ramblings. Omnia's are great, Orban's are
> great, the BW DSPX range of processors are great. Take your
> pick, have fun, live long!
>
> Hope Cleveland's warmer than London.
>
> Best regards
> Scott
>