DTV converter boxes selling fast?

[Poledo]

Is anyone selling a DTV converter box that is capable of controlling an antenna rotor? I'm absolutely sure I'm not going to be able to pick up more that two DTV channels at a time without turning my rooftop antenna. I haven't seen anything advertised or even mentioned about such a device, but I really expected this would be readily available by now.

 

[DJKraze]

* WUVN 18-2 said "WHTX" but was showing the same thing as WUVN 18-1.
# WTXX 20-2 was showing the same thing as WTXX 20-1.

It's resolving to 18-X? On my old Accurian that I have from 3 years ago, WUVN used to do that, but now it's always 46-X.

Also, it is WHTX Springfield on 18-2 because WHTX is nearly the same as WUVN, except for a random ad now and then, the top of the hour ID and some of the news programming, otherwise, the exact same all around.

WTXX 20-2 does show the same thing as 20-1 except the screen size is different, I get a higher resolution from the main channel.

Finally WEDN 53-1 seems to be the only one in use, the rest of the subchannels are just blanks, not sure why they are doing this, and I wonder in August what will happen with WEDH-DT (not to mention a rumor I heard that a certain CT TV Station might be cutting analog that same month and going all DT, you might have heard this one here first)

 

[Chad-Stevens]

I'm already set on the digital tuners, but I need to get two converters for my in-laws. I just checked on a whim yesterday at the WalMart SuperCenter in Homewood, AL. Magnavox converter boxes are totally sold out. They had space for several dozen on the empty display.

In this market, with its hilly terrain, getting ABC is going to be very iffy, as we have just a LPTV on ch. 58 relayed by two semi-distant full power stations in Tuscaloosa and Anniston.

I can't get any digital signal whatsoever on any of them (apartment - no outdoor antenna allowed) and expect to lose ABC entirely.

 

[landtuna]

Which brings up a question.....

When the digital switch happens next February will the analog VHF stations all begin broadcasting on their VHS freq's and drop the digital UHF assignments?

I assume the UHF analog stations will return to their former analog UHF freq's too.

 

[kenglish]

Is anyone selling a DTV converter box that is capable of controlling an antenna rotor? I'm absolutely sure I'm not going to be able to pick up more that two DTV channels at a time without turning my rooftop antenna. I haven't seen anything advertised or even mentioned about such a device, but I really expected this would be readily available by now.

There are a few boxes that work with a "Smart Antenna", which is an electronically-tuned "saucer" style of antenna. The RCA is one of them.

The Smart Antenna carries power and control signals on the same coax as the signal. It works with the box to learn the proper settings of position (16 each), bandpass (VHF-Low, VHF-high, and UHF), and amplifier settings, to optimize the signal for each DTV station. It then stores these settings in it's tuning tables.

I don't think anyone has tried to interface it all to a regular antenna rotor yet.

http://www.summitsource.com/product_info.php?ref=1&products_id=6320

 

[Mediafrog+]

When the digital switch happens next February will the analog VHF stations all begin broadcasting on their VHS freq's and drop the digital UHF assignments?

Some will, some won't. Virtually all of the low-band V's are staying with their UHF digital assignments. Mixed bag with the high-band V's.

I assume the UHF analog stations will return to their former analog UHF freq's too.

Again, a mixed bag. From a quick survey of the channel assignments, it appears a majority will stay with the new digital allocations. With the "virtual channel" functionality, there is really no point in returning to the old analog slot.

 

[tripinva]

In this market, with its hilly terrain, getting ABC is going to be very iffy, as we have just a LPTV on ch. 58 relayed by two semi-distant full power stations in Tuscaloosa and Anniston.

I can't get any digital signal whatsoever on any of them (apartment - no outdoor antenna allowed) and expect to lose ABC entirely.

Go to Circuit City and pick up the Zenith, or the Insignia at Best Buy (same box). Very good tuner chip in it, and it's easy to add one channel at a time, if need be.

Depending on where exactly they are, WJSU-DT 9 is probably the best bet, assuming the proper antenna, because low-VHFs (WCFT-DT 5) are awful. Next year WCFT will return to 33 and it won't be so much of a problem.

- Trip

 

[Chad-Stevens]

Go to Circuit City and pick up the Zenith, or the Insignia at Best Buy (same box). Very good tuner chip in it, and it's easy to add one channel at a time, if need be.

Depending on where exactly they are, WJSU-DT 9 is probably the best bet, assuming the proper antenna, because low-VHFs (WCFT-DT 5) are awful. Next year WCFT will return to 33 and it won't be so much of a problem.

- Trip

But it's not me that needs the converter, its my in-laws who need me to hook them up. Both of my sets are digital ready and can't get a digital signal from the network of LP's, translators, and way-outta-town sticks that passes for a local ABC affiliate. http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/WBMA-LP

Not being able to put up an outside antenna, I'm not holding out hope. :-\

 

[tripinva]

I'm familiar with WJSU/WCFT. The same company owns my local ABC (WSET). They moved their stations' digitals to VHF wherever they could. Thankfully, none were open where I'm located, so they just moved to a lower UHF channel (from 56 to 34).

You know what would be interesting to try? See if a set of rabbit ears won't receive WJSU-DT 9. I can't say anything certain, but it's possible that it might work.

- Trip

 

[landtuna]

When the digital switch happens next February will the analog VHF stations all begin broadcasting on their VHS freq's and drop the digital UHF assignments?

Some will, some won't. Virtually all of the low-band V's are staying with their UHF digital assignments. Mixed bag with the high-band V's.

I would think VHF, especially low-band, would have far better coverage than any UHF. Why would they stay UHF?

 

[dhett]

When the digital switch happens next February will the analog VHF stations all begin broadcasting on their VHS freq's and drop the digital UHF assignments?

Some will, some won't. Virtually all of the low-band V's are staying with their UHF digital assignments. Mixed bag with the high-band V's.

I would think VHF, especially low-band, would have far better coverage than any UHF. Why would they stay UHF?

IIRC, Low-VHF stations are very susceptible to interference, so most are abandoning their VHF assignments. I can give you specifics for AZ stations.

Of all the low-VHF stations in AZ, only KNAZ 2 Flagstaff is going back to its VHF assignment. KFTU 3 Douglas (36), KTVK 3 Phoenix (24), KVOA 4 Tucson (23), KPHO 5 Phoenix (17), KMOH 6 Kingman (19) and KUAT 6 Tucson (30) are all staying with their UHF assignments.

Most of the high-VHFs are going back to their VHF assignments. Exceptions: KVYE 7 El Centro CA/Yuma (22), KCFG 9 Flagstaff (32), KMSB 11 Tucson (25), KOLD 13 Tucson (32) and KSWT 13 Yuma (16).

The only other station I know in the region that will be low-VHF is KVBC 3 Las Vegas. That lucky station got channel 2 for their DTV assignment while all the other Vs in the city got high-VHF assignments.

 

[tripinva]

I would think VHF, especially low-band, would have far better coverage than any UHF. Why would they stay UHF?

IIRC, Low-VHF stations are very susceptible to interference, so most are abandoning their VHF assignments. I can give you specifics for AZ stations.

Of all the low-VHF stations in AZ, only KNAZ 2 Flagstaff is going back to its VHF assignment. KFTU 3 Douglas (36), KTVK 3 Phoenix (24), KVOA 4 Tucson (23), KPHO 5 Phoenix (17), KMOH 6 Kingman (19) and KUAT 6 Tucson (30) are all staying with their UHF assignments.

Most of the high-VHFs are going back to their VHF assignments. Exceptions: KVYE 7 El Centro CA/Yuma (22), KCFG 9 Flagstaff (32), KMSB 11 Tucson (25), KOLD 13 Tucson (32) and KSWT 13 Yuma (16).

The only other station I know in the region that will be low-VHF is KVBC 3 Las Vegas. That lucky station got channel 2 for their DTV assignment while all the other Vs in the city got high-VHF assignments.

I think the magic number is 44. It's above 40 and below 50 definitely, the number of low-VHF digitals that will exist after next year.

Channel 4 will have just two stations on it, WHBF and WDKY. Channel 3 will be abandoned east of the Mississippi River except for WSBS-DT in Key West (which is repeated into Miami on a UHF translator, no major problems there) and my own WBRA-DT 3, who is trying so hard to leave people without a PBS station next year and blaming it on people being "outside [their] coverage area."

Channel 5 is the most popular low-VHF channel, with at least 15 stations on it. Next most popular is Channel 6 with at least 9. Then channel 2 with at least 7 and channel three with at least 6. (I say at least because I can count that many from memory; I'd have to check to be certain that there are not more)

For the record, KVVU-DT was originally to be on 24, and KTNV-DT was to be on 17. Both had their digitals reassigned to upper VHF.

And yes, landtuna, the reason is that the low-VHFs have SEVERE interference problems. I have first-hand experience with this, as my grumbling about WBRA-DT may have indicated above.

- Trip

 

[Chad-Stevens]

There is already a proposal before the FCC that would take current channels 5 and 6 (76-88 MHz) and add it to the FM broadcast band. PDF: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-217A1.pdf

These freqs are the majority of the FM band in Japan, so equipment capable of receiving these freqs is already being produced (if not imported) in vast quantities.

This would of course hinge on the last few remaining DTV stragglers vacating, and whether or not the big money broadcasters would go for it. I don't see those channels being useful for cellular or much else.

 

[murcuryvapor]

There is already a proposal before the FCC that would take current channels 5 and 6 (76-88 MHz) and add it to the FM broadcast band. PDF: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-217A1.pdf

These freqs are the majority of the FM band in Japan, so equipment capable of receiving these freqs is already being produced (if not imported) in vast quantities.

Yes, I have a Bell and Howell radio that receives the Japanese FM band (which is down to channel 3 audio methinks) and TV sound radios as well.

The problem-in the Philadelphia metro anyway- is you have Channel 6 retaining its analogue channel space for its DTV, although 3 is abandoning their 6 mHz of FM usable.

Also, the reason for the IBOC thing happening in its current state is because analogue audio broadcasters didn't want to have any competing signals to their programming-so they came up with a way to plant new signals on current real estate.

Radio is in a big decline with other entertainment offers available, so another band would not be tolerated by the NAB at this point. What would have made sense is to make a new Digital VHF radio service, co-programmed with AM/FM offerings. That way-like the TV boxes do-the radio could seek channels available on per-market basis, allowing for a nationwide alternate to Satellite.

Those frequencies will likely go to taxi two-ways.

 

[Mediafrog+]

There is already a proposal before the FCC that would take current channels 5 and 6 (76-88 MHz) and add it to the FM broadcast band. PDF: http://hraunfoss.fcc.gov/edocs_public/attachmatch/FCC-07-217A1.pdf

If you kept the current 200kHz channel spacing, this would add 60 channels to the FM band. Perhaps it could be opened up to more LPFM, along with providing a new home for stations that want to leave AM and migrate to an expanded FM band.

You might also consider reallocating the oddball 72-76 MHz band while you're at it, which would add another 20 channels. Biggest obstacle would be moving the flea powered audio assist devices that inhabit that region, along with some remote control functions. This band is also home to some low power two way communications, much of which may have already moved to newer technology.

Eventually what is now FM will move to all digital technology, which will allow 8-10 audio streams per transmitter, so some of this discussion might be moot in the future.

This would of course hinge on the last few remaining DTV stragglers vacating, and whether or not the big money broadcasters would go for it.

The big broadcasters could always pay off the stragglers, who are always willing to move if the price is right.

I don't see those channels being useful for cellular or much else.

Most of the new technologies involve frequencies in the UHF spectrum and above. Even the old VHF-low public service band (30-50 MHz) is getting pretty empty, even in large markets.

 

[Chad-Stevens]

If you kept the current 200kHz channel spacing, this would add 60 channels to the FM band. Perhaps it could be opened up to more LPFM, along with providing a new home for stations that want to leave AM and migrate to an expanded FM band.

You might also consider reallocating the oddball 72-76 MHz band while you're at it, which would add another 20 channels. Biggest obstacle would be moving the flea powered audio assist devices that inhabit that region, along with some remote control functions. This band is also home to some low power two way communications, much of which may have already moved to newer technology.

Eventually what is now FM will move to all digital technology, which will allow 8-10 audio streams per transmitter, so some of this discussion might be moot in the future.

snip

Judging by the early performance of HD Radio as little more than an expensive novelty item, I don't know if the digital-only multicasting FM could be implemented within 25 years if at all. I guess it will be a lot easier to tell after 2/17/09 to see how much misery a switch to all-digital broadcasting will inflict.

But expanding the FM band down to 76 MHz at least could easily be done within 5-10 years with existing technology in the same way the AM band was expanded, allowing existing stations to simulcast for a time before switching off the old transmitter. Plus most Japanese FM radios already tune from 76-108, so imports could begin immediately: a reason not to expand to even lower freqs, even if it could conceivably be done.

I'd reserve 84-88 for LPFMs and/or non-comms. Then grant first priority on 76-84 to existing AM stations with less than 1kW at night. (I'd grant 2 watts on FM for each daytime watt on AM, or 5kW, whichever is greater.) After ten years, 76-84 would be opened to existing FM stations wishing to relocate, and finally new stations after 12 years. This would help to alleviate concerns about increased competition.

The time to make this decision needs to be soon. The few full powered DTVs on 5 and 6 could probably move to other (better) channels without difficulty, but if after 2009 the low VHF channels begin filling up with translators and digital LPTVs, it will be impossible. Of course, the FCC could also freeze new TV apps for these two channels and simply license FM stations where permissible and leave the DTV stragglers to decide whether or not to stay put.

 

[murcuryvapor]

Judging by the early performance of HD Radio as little more than an expensive novelty item, I don't know if the digital-only multicasting FM could be implemented within 25 years if at all. I guess it will be a lot easier to tell after 2/17/09 to see how much misery a switch to all-digital broadcasting will inflict.

But expanding the FM band down to 76 MHz at least could easily be done within 5-10 years with existing technology in the same way the AM band was expanded, allowing existing stations to simulcast for a time before switching off the old transmitter. Plus most Japanese FM radios already tune from 76-108, so imports could begin immediately: a reason not to expand to even lower freqs, even if it could conceivably be done.

Judging by the way HD has flopped is in no way an indicator of how a stand-alone VHF Digital Radio would perform. If done in the right manner (and at the right time-which was years ago) there could be better multicast offerings in an actual receivable package. Hybrid Digital Radio has had too many technical issues to be user-friendly from the get go-poor reception the primary. Your analogous here is Satellite-Terrestrial based subscription radio would be great, actually. Again that's not stellar, but a better example.

In order to move Channel 6 (82-88 mHz analogue/future DTV, currently Channel 64 UHF DTV) in Philly, for instance, there would have to be a reallocation and enough incentive paid for them to do so-if the idea is make the FM channels contiguous. I am not sure if the entities coming forth to claim their frequency would have the clout of a Qualcomm to clear the space. 64 is in the new media no-mans land for TV.

Here, KYW 3 is giving up the analogue bandspace-probably due to technical issues with DTV transmission in that segment of frequencies. So, give this to WPVI-technically dubious-and let them sort it out to allow for an extra 6 mHz on the FM band?

Personally, I would rather wait for 'net based broadband wireless. This expanded FM discussion has been taking place in other circles for years, and within entities more apt to handle petitioning the FCC (not listed in the PDF).

 

[w9wi]

I think the magic number is 44. It's above 40 and below 50 definitely, the number of low-VHF digitals that will exist after next year.

The magic number is 40.

As Dave says, KNAZ will be the only one in Arizona. The only others in the Southwest (southern Cal, Arizona, Nevada, Utah) are KVBC-2 Las Vegas and KVNV-3 Ely.

Counts by channel:
2: 7
3: 7
4: 2
5: 15
6: 9

================================================================

Personally I believe the proposal to reallocate channels 5 and 6 to FM will go absolutely nowhere. Two reasons:

- It would stall the DTV transition. New channels would have to be found for the stations currently assigned 5 or 6. 24 is not a lot of stations, but it's more than zero. Some of them are major stations in fairly large markets. (Philadelphia, Nashville, Memphis, Albany, Des Moines) You can't just toss them something without ensuring it will replicate coverage without interfering with something else. Chances are pretty good there'll be a "domino effect" with other stations having to be moved to open channels for these 24.

- Stations would have to scrap (probably literally) equipment they've already ordered. (I read the transition plan of one of the channel 5 stations. If equipment deliveries are on schedule, they already have their channel 5 digital transmitter - and it is very possible it has already been tested on the air.) Who's going to pay for this gear? You can't adapt a channel 5 transmitter to operate on channel 47.

Many of these stations have budgeted for the transition on the assumption they will be able to reuse their existing analog antenna for DTV. Moving them to a different channel forces the purchase of a new antenna. (and hiring of a crew to install it) That's a huge expense (beyond the huge expense of another transmitter!) that's not been provided for. Often they can't just go back to their current DTV channel - as that channel is outside core. (applies to the Philadelphia, Nashville, Memphis, and Des Moines stations among others)

 

[Chad-Stevens]

- It would stall the DTV transition. New channels would have to be found for the stations currently assigned 5 or 6. 24 is not a lot of stations, but it's more than zero. Some of them are major stations in fairly large markets. (Philadelphia, Nashville, Memphis, Albany, Des Moines) You can't just toss them something without ensuring it will replicate coverage without interfering with something else. Chances are pretty good there'll be a "domino effect" with other stations having to be moved to open channels for these 24.

snip
The few existing ch. 5/6's could simply be grandfathered in and then freeze new apps for 5 and 6. To use Philly for an example, there's already FM stations in that city on nearby freqs like 88.1 (WPEB - ERP of one watt!?) and 88.5 (WXPN), so even if you could only utilize the remaining 2, 4, or 6 MHz of new spectrum in those markets, it's still a lot of viable bandwidth that could be used for FM.

 

[yragha]

Is anyone selling a DTV converter box that is capable of controlling an antenna rotor? I'm absolutely sure I'm not going to be able to pick up more that two DTV channels at a time without turning my rooftop antenna. I haven't seen anything advertised or even mentioned about such a device, but I really expected this would be readily available by now.

There are a few boxes that work with a "Smart Antenna", which is an electronically-tuned "saucer" style of antenna. The RCA is one of them.

The Smart Antenna carries power and control signals on the same coax as the signal. It works with the box to learn the proper settings of position (16 each), bandpass (VHF-Low, VHF-high, and UHF), and amplifier settings, to optimize the signal for each DTV station. It then stores these settings in it's tuning tables.

I don't think anyone has tried to interface it all to a regular antenna rotor yet.

http://www.summitsource.com/product_info.php?ref=1&products_id=6320

Is this smart antenna for outdoor only or can it be used indoors?

Thanks