DTV-only stations that don't ID by their old analog position

[dhett]

It was my understanding that when stations cut over to DTV, they are required to use their old analog channel number as their DTV virtual channel, but I've been learning that it's not always the case:

WMCN-DT Atlantic City NJ IDs as 44.1 instead of 53.1
WNVT-DT Goldvein VA IDs as 30.1 instead of 53.1
KLDT-DT Lake Dallas TX IDs as 54.1 instead of 55.1

I thought maybe it was just stations that surrendered their analog licenses early before the virtual channel standard was set, but KLDT was recent. What other stations ID by their RF channel instead of the virtual channel that had operated in analog?

I know these stations have surrendered their analog licenses early - how do they ID?

WLNY-DT 57 Riverhead NY (was 55 analog)
WRNN-DT 48 Kingston NY (was 62 analog)
WYPX-DT 50 Amsterdam NY (was 55 analog)
WACX-DT 40 Leesburg FL (was 55 analog)
KWDK-DT 42 Tacoma WA (was 56 analog)
KVMD-DT 23 Twentynine Palms CA (was 31 analog)

Any others?

 

[azumanga]

WFME-TV, a religious station in the New York City area, now identifies themselves as channel 29, its digital slot, even though its analog channel, 66, is still on the air.

 

[R.D.P.]

WBIH DT 29 Selma/Montgomery Alabama.
(America One Network and Informericals)

This station has always been on channel 29, since signing on in 2001.

R.D.P. <><

 

[landtuna]

Dhett,

Can't help but notice that every example you posted is a UHF freq. on both analog and digital. You suppose that has something to do with the ID?

 

[dhett]

WBIH DT 29 Selma/Montgomery Alabama. (America One Network and Informericals)

This station has always been on channel 29, since signing on in 2001.

That wasn't exactly what I was looking for, as they didn't have a separate digital companion channel, but instead, flash cut to digital on their single channel. KPXJ 21 Minden LA (Shreveport), KCBU 3 Price UT and KUES 19 Richfield UT did the same thing. Several other stations have signed on as digital-only (KUEW 18 St. George UT, KRMU 20 Durango CO, WFBD 48 Destin FL, WHDT 59 Stuart FL, WMAK 7 Knoxville TN and WSKA 30 Corning NY), and those aren't really what I was looking for either.

Dhett,

Can't help but notice that every example you posted is a UHF freq. on both analog and digital. You suppose that has something to do with the ID?

Not really, other than that, except for KVMD, all of the stations had analog channels out-of-core, i.e., channels 52 - 59, and so, were eligible to turn off analog early and go with their digital companion channel only. I don't know what the story was with KVMD, or even if they ever broadcast in analog on channel 31 at all.

There is another station that surrendered its analog license and is now digital-only - how does it ID?

WLJC-DT 7 Beattyville KY (was channel 65)

 

[ansky212]

I know these stations have surrendered their analog licenses early - how do they ID?

WLNY-DT 57 Riverhead NY (was 55 analog)
WRNN-DT 48 Kingston NY (was 62 analog)

WLNY ID's themselves as "TV 10/55". The 10 comes from their cable channel position on Long Island. You can see their logo here: http://wlnytv.com

WRNN usually just ID's themselves as 'RNN'. I rarely watch the channel but I have never seen them refer to a channel number.

 

[tripinva]

I heard from a contact that WLJC-DT still shows as 65-1.

I'm almost sure that WRNN-DT shows as 48-1, as that's how it's listed and how it's referenced everywhere I've looked, but I've never been able to receive enough signal when visiting New Jersey to know for sure.

I think KVMD-DT IDs as 23-1, but don't quote me on that either.

Oh yeah, one more, KDEV-DT in Cheyenne (targetting Denver) is showing as 11-1 instead of 33-1, and has petitioned to shut off the analog on 33 as soon as possible.

- Trip

 

[dhett]

I know these stations have surrendered their analog licenses early - how do they ID?

WLNY-DT 57 Riverhead NY (was 55 analog)
WRNN-DT 48 Kingston NY (was 62 analog)

WLNY ID's themselves as "TV 10/55". The 10 comes from their cable channel position on Long Island. You can see their logo here: http://wlnytv.com

WRNN usually just ID's themselves as 'RNN'. I rarely watch the channel but I have never seen them refer to a channel number.

I'm sorry; I'm not stating my question clearly enough.

How do these stations ID for PSIP? For example, when I want to watch KPHO-DT in Phoenix, I tune to 5.1, their virtual channel and analog assignment, not 17.1, which is their DTV RF channel.

Some stations don't quite get it right: KMCC Laughlin NV has repeater in Las Vegas which IDs for PSIP as 32.1, which is KMCC's DTV RF channel. KMCC is on channel 34 in analog, so the repeater should be ID-ing as 34.1.

Some stations which have already surrendered their analog licenses are using their DTV RF channel instead of a virtual channel. Trip gave the example of WNVT Goldvein VA, formerly analog 53, now digital-only on channel 30, which IDs on PSIP as 30.1 and not 53.1.

When you watch WRNN, do you tune in to channel 48.1 or 62.1? For WLNY, do you tune in to channel 55.1 or 57.1? (Although given their branding, I'd guess 55.1.)

 

[fortmill]

I don't understand what would stop digital stations from identifying as any channel number they wished. I say this becasue some analog stations have identified themselves with faux channel numbers for years. In my town, WCNC, channel 36, has called itself "NBC6" for at least the last 10 years---channel 36 is NEVER, and I mean NEVER, mentioned or shown on the screen. Kind of silly in my opinion...

 

[fybush]

There's nothing especially unusual or silly about a station branding with its cable channel number - that's standard practice in many heavily-cabled/heavily-UHF markets (Palm Springs comes to mind here).

There's certainly nothing magical about a station's analog OTA channel number that would make it imperative that a station use that number as its major channel number for its DTV signal.

But the FCC reasoned, probably correctly, that if it didn't impose some kind of standards on stations, there would be the potential for chaos as a result. Take Providence as an example - WPRI has a half-century of history as "Channel 12," but its DTV RF channel will be 13. WNAC is on analog 64 (though it brands as "Fox Providence"), and will go to 12 as its DTV RF channel. WJAR has more than a half-century of history as "Channel 10," but its DTV channel is 51. A home-shopping channel that's now on analog 46 will be on RF 10 when everything settles down.

Without some sort of standards, what would stop WPRI and WNAC from both deciding to be "12.x"? (The fact that they're co-owned, in this case, actually), or WJAR and WWDP from both being "10.x"? And what would stop other stations from switching to low virtual channel numbers that are otherwise unused in the market - say, "3.x"?

That's why the FCC imposed rules mandating that the analog channel number be used as the major channel number for DTV. The question now is how effectively those rules will be enforced. We've already seen that many of the stations that cut to DTV-only aren't following the letter of the rules. I know of other stations, especially some that get to go from an undesirable UHF channel to a desirable VHF channel, that have decided to ID with their DTV RF channel.

My guess is that if nobody complains, the FCC probably won't put much priority on enforcing the letter of these rules, as long as there are no obvious and ugly conflicts. Does that mean Palm Springs could get away with 3.x and 6.x instead of 42.x or 36.x? That might be a stretch. (And indeed, KESQ and KMIR do use 42.x and 36.x, for whatever it's worth.)

 

[FightingIrish]

I get the feeling that once this whole DTV transition has been sorted out, the FCC will allow some 'virtual' channel movement, within reason, and provided there aren't any conflicts within the market or in overlapping areas. Perhaps this will start with the stations above ch. 51, since that spectrum will be gone anyway. I would imagine some stations might jockey for better real estate (i.e. mapping to their common cable channels or sandwiching in between some highly-rated network affiliates, etc.) rather than just pass themselves off as faux VHF channels.

There was one instance I recall hearing about a while back when ch. 26 in Chicago started mapping to ch. 1. The FCC obviously wasn't cool with that. I also remember hearing that The WB had some crazy idea about all their affiliates mapping to ch. 75.

 

[pabsungenis]

I've been thinking about this for a while. There used to be a Public/Non-Comm assignment to Atlantic City for Channel 36, which was then taken over by the signal for WMGM-DT, 40.1. WMGM will be staying on 36 after the switchover, and PSIP'ing (as now) as 40.x.

There's the possibility of a push to get the non-com assignment back once the dust has settled next year, and assign 40 as the new allotment (since the channel will be vacant, and won't interfere with any "nearby" signals from NYC, Philadelphia, or Delaware. The new station can't identify itself as 40.x, since WMGM has the rights to that allotment, and if they took 36.x, it would be confusing with the actual channel number for WMGM for direct tuning.

This would be a case where we would have to have a new channel number, completely unconnected to the station's past or present location on the dial. The two likely possibilities would be 53.x, which has been abandoned by WMCN-DT (which ID's as 44.x), or 37.x, since there are no Channel 37's in current existence.

 

[tripinva]

Another one I thought of for your list.

Though it hasn't silenced its analog, Atlanta's CW affiliate WUPA-69 apparently does not map their digital to channel 69. I've been told they map to 43-1, despite calling themselves "CW69" on the air.

- Trip

 

[dhett]

There's the possibility of a push to get the non-com assignment back once the dust has settled next year, and assign 40 as the new allotment (since the channel will be vacant, and won't interfere with any "nearby" signals from NYC, Philadelphia, or Delaware. The new station can't identify itself as 40.x, since WMGM has the rights to that allotment, and if they took 36.x, it would be confusing with the actual channel number for WMGM for direct tuning.

Actually, that's exactly what the ATSC standard specifies: if a new TV station is allocated to Atlantic City on RF channel 40, or even if an LPTV station launches on ch 40 that doesn't rebroadcast another station, its PSIP ID would be 36.x. (See http://www.atsc.org/standards/a_65cr1_with_amend_1.pdf , Annex B, for ATSC standard.)

 

[dhett]

I don't understand what would stop digital stations from identifying as any channel number they wished. I say this becasue some analog stations have identified themselves with faux channel numbers for years. In my town, WCNC, channel 36, has called itself "NBC6" for at least the last 10 years---channel 36 is NEVER, and I mean NEVER, mentioned or shown on the screen. Kind of silly in my opinion...

What you're describing is station branding, and there are no FCC rules for that, which is why WCTX 59 New Haven CT brands as MY TV 9, in spite of the fact that WWOR 9 Secaucus NJ brands as My 9.

The channel ID sent in the PSIP stream is mandated by the FCC, but obviously, some stations don't follow it. I'll bet that the previous poster is correct: the FCC won't really enforce it unless there is a problem.

 

[arnoldevns]

It was my understanding that when stations cut over to DTV, they are required to use their old analog channel number as their DTV virtual channel, but I've been learning that it's not always the case:

KLDT-DT Lake Dallas TX IDs as 54.1 instead of 55.1

I thought maybe it was just stations that surrendered their analog licenses early before the virtual channel standard was set, but KLDT was recent. What other stations ID by their RF channel instead of the virtual channel that had operated in analog?

KLDT is one of the stations that has turned off it's analog station early. I don't think that has any bearing on how they ID though. They're going to move to channel 39 when the DTV transition happens. When they do, they'll still ID as 54.1 KXTX will ID as 39.1 even though it's on 40.

 

[dhett]

I think KVMD-DT IDs as 23-1, but don't quote me on that either.

In case anyone still cares, KVMD-DT IDs as 31.x, which was their old analog assignment.

KVMD' line-up:
31.1 KVMD-DT
31.2 KXLA-DT
31.3 KJLA-DT
31.4 LATV

 

[Ultimajock]

...KAZT-CA Phoenix maps to 7.1 and 7.2, but is transmitting digitally over its old analogue channel of 27. KAZT-TV Prescott simulcasts KAZT-CA on Channel 7 analogue and Channel 25 digital, and neither of those can be recieved in Phoenix under normal conditions, even though Prescott is in the Phoenix ADI for ratings purposes. Isn't KAZT-CA violating FCC regs by mapping in Phoenix to a channel that it was never normally seen on in analogue here?...

 

[dhett]

Not at all. The FCC allows translator stations to map to their primary station's virtual channel number, so KAZT-CA maps to channel 7.

Conversely, in Prescott, KSAZ owns a digital low-power translator station, K39IT-D, which properly maps to 10.1 on a DTV set.

 

[Ultimajock]

Not at all. The FCC allows translator stations to map to their primary station's virtual channel number, so KAZT-CA maps to channel 7.

...since AZ-TV originates its programming and maintains its administrative offices in Phoenix, I'd dispute KAZT-CA being a translator...