little1 said:
I happen to like that Wang Chung song. I'd rather see a station take a chance with it, than the same bland and boring cookie cutter crap that pollutes much of this market.
R
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I happen to like that Wang Chung song. I'd rather see a station take a chance with it, than the same bland and boring cookie cutter crap that pollutes much of this market.
R
M
MikeShannon914
Guest
Like with every music format, song preferences and burn factors are subjective. (Sorry, Robert...I HATE that Huang Chung song!) I recall a station in Las Vegas I listened to relentlessly while on vacation there in mid-2001. All 80s, and yes, a lot of that pop/bubble gum stuff that made the 80s, well, unique. For "my taste," it was programmed very well. That doesn't mean someone in the next car was just as happy with it. You can "test" songs to death, but sometimes a programmer has to use some gut instinct. And the programmer has to be someone who was alive during the songs' original runs, and someone preferably who is from the area and knows what was popular and what wasn't. (i.e. Uptown's "(I Know) I'm Losing You" was a big regional hit here, but didn't chart nationally. Someone like Robert Bass programming an 80s station would know that...a person who's programmed his own internet 80s station, and was a dedicated listener of Y-95, the old KTKS-Kiss FM, etc.) Some of you all have argued that point with me before, but I still stand by that...you should have "lived" your area before you can properly program its music.
Sometimes it's the "everyman" kind of person that does the best job of programming. Remember the weekend rock music that was the other half of "The Talk That Rocks" on KYNG in their early days? Most folks on the board loved those selections, and guess what, that was the handywork of Doc Bryce, not a programmer by trade, but someone who has an ear for what's good. Some people have that, some just don't (conversely, remember what happened to The Bone after Month #2...tinkering by folks that had no clue, and thought that "THEIR" personal jukebox was what people wanted to hear. Five years of that now, and has there ever been a solid, respectable book at KDBN?)
I know "good music" is a subjective term that no one can agree on, but going only with the 'tried and true' that tested well or is just "safe"...that doesn't set you apart from any other station. ("The Power of Love" by Huey Lewis and the News is a safe bet, hence it being on KLUV's list now...but don't waste time waiting for "If This Is It," "I Want a New Drug," "Heart and Soul," and "Do You Believe in Love," although each one is on equal par to "Power." A sign of poor programming would be if the next Huey song added to the KLUV playlist is "Stuck To You" or "Hip to be Square." Talk about burn factor.)
This can be argued to death, but this is simply "my" take on things. ;D
Sometimes it's the "everyman" kind of person that does the best job of programming. Remember the weekend rock music that was the other half of "The Talk That Rocks" on KYNG in their early days? Most folks on the board loved those selections, and guess what, that was the handywork of Doc Bryce, not a programmer by trade, but someone who has an ear for what's good. Some people have that, some just don't (conversely, remember what happened to The Bone after Month #2...tinkering by folks that had no clue, and thought that "THEIR" personal jukebox was what people wanted to hear. Five years of that now, and has there ever been a solid, respectable book at KDBN?)
I know "good music" is a subjective term that no one can agree on, but going only with the 'tried and true' that tested well or is just "safe"...that doesn't set you apart from any other station. ("The Power of Love" by Huey Lewis and the News is a safe bet, hence it being on KLUV's list now...but don't waste time waiting for "If This Is It," "I Want a New Drug," "Heart and Soul," and "Do You Believe in Love," although each one is on equal par to "Power." A sign of poor programming would be if the next Huey song added to the KLUV playlist is "Stuck To You" or "Hip to be Square." Talk about burn factor.)
This can be argued to death, but this is simply "my" take on things. ;D
Another locally huge hit from the 80's decade, was Wham Rap by Wham. I know some of you don't care for Wham. 
And Mike, I guess this means you'll be pushing pre-set buttons on your radio, whenever Wang Chung hits KEOM's playlist. :'( Oh well, as Ricky Nelson says, you can't please everyone.
R
And Mike, I guess this means you'll be pushing pre-set buttons on your radio, whenever Wang Chung hits KEOM's playlist. :'( Oh well, as Ricky Nelson says, you can't please everyone.
R
Maybe I wasn't clear in what I was responding to- someone (Mike?) "called" for an 80's based station- and my response was to that- but what I might not have spelled out clearly enough, is that those 3 different subsets I mentioned? They HATE each others subset- IOW, the Early Edge Wangchung dude HATES hair metal and HATES the Whitney houston -Mariah Carey brand of chick pop...While the Mariah fan wouldn't be caught dead listening to Winger...(Maybe Debra Winger but that's it...)Robert Bass said:
So the problem is that it's hard to find enough common ground to get enough known music to populate a playlist-
And you guys can bitch all you want about 'known' music, but it's a vicious catch 22- if you don't play stuff known by your listeners, you're not going to get enough listeners to carry a station- which means you get a year or 2 before they realize it'll be more productive $$$ wise to switch to music they know will get an audience-
Sometimes I feel like some of you people have NO clue about cume, TSL and a stations music. And how the 3 interact...And why the music choices the Bone is making now make sense from a ratings (and revenue) point, even if you guys don't like them...
OK some of hat you say does make sense.
I was looking at it from the "Top 40" format approach, with respect to All 80's formats. The same way we do the 70's at KEOM. We have a combination of Classic Rock, Solid Gold, Easy Listening, Lite AC and Mainstream AC. There are even a few Country selections as well.
I believe you can have a common ground with all 80's, in the same way. Sure not everyone will like every song you play, but I don't expect every 70's music listener likes every song either. The way I figure it, if you're doing a Top 40 format, if your average lsitener likes somewhere around 80% of your playlist, you're doing fine.
R
I was looking at it from the "Top 40" format approach, with respect to All 80's formats. The same way we do the 70's at KEOM. We have a combination of Classic Rock, Solid Gold, Easy Listening, Lite AC and Mainstream AC. There are even a few Country selections as well.
I believe you can have a common ground with all 80's, in the same way. Sure not everyone will like every song you play, but I don't expect every 70's music listener likes every song either. The way I figure it, if you're doing a Top 40 format, if your average lsitener likes somewhere around 80% of your playlist, you're doing fine.
R
I think the problem with the 80s is that you started seeing the top 40 format fragment. Most "80s & More" stations around the country play essentially what KDMX has long done for its 80s midday show...female-friendly 80s hits that may or may not have been hits locally.
In the mid-80s, you had the start of the "churban" outlets (CHRs like KPWR in Los Angeles that played only R&B and dance). Billboard eventually started calling them "crossover" stations and by the late '80s had split the radio airplay into separate charts -- top 40, top 40/crossover, and top 40/rock. So, in '89, they had KHYI (the "Y95" on 94.9, for those that don't remember) in the first, KJMZ "100.3 Jamz" in the second, and KEGL in the last one.
In the fall of '86 when KHYI signed on, it was very dance and urban-leaning. Through most of the 1980s, KEGL had a rock lean (sometimes playing big pop hits from the likes of Madonna and sometimes not). KTKS was always mainstream until it became a virtual AC in the summer of 1987. During a brief period in the spring of 1987, those three got musically close as KHYI had recently gone mainstream and KTKS had not yet gone to AC. I found an aircheck of the 3 of them from middays in April 1987...
KHYI 94.9
Steve Winwood/The Finer Things
Starship/Nothing's Gonna Stop Us Now
Dead Or Alive/Brand New Lover
Cutting Crew/(I Just) Died In Your Arms
Psychedelic Furs/Heartbreak Beat
Eagles/I Can't Tell You Why
Full Force/Old Flames Never Die
Phil Collins/In Too Deep
Eurythmics/Missionary Man
Bruce Hornsby/Mandolin Rain
KEGL 97.1
Sammy Hagar/Winner Takes It All
Loverboy/Turn Me Loose
Lou Gramm/Midnight Blue
Chicago/If She Would Have Been Faithful
Huey Lewis & The News/I Know What I Like
Crowded House/Don't Dream It's Over
Talking Heads/Burning Down the House
Bob Seger/Old Time Rock & Roll
Psychedelic Furs/Heartbreak Beat
KTKS 106.1
Fleetwood MAc/Big Love
Aretha Franklin & George Michael/I Knew You Were Waiting (For Me)
Kim Wilde/You Keep Me Hangin' On
Hall & Oates/Maneater
Cutting Crew/(I Just) Died In Your Arms
John Waite/Missing You
Herb Albert with Janet Jackson/Diamonds
Boston/Cantcha Say (You Believe In Me)
Dead Or Alive/Brand New Lover
Huey Lewis & The News/If This Is It
...but that was short-lived. KTKS moved to AC and eventually died and became the original KOAI by fall. KHYI replaced it as the mainstream outlet. KEGL really went rock-leaning as those "40 minute non-stop Eagle free flights of back to back rock & roll hits" excluded a lot of pop and songs like Pink Floyd/Learning To Fly and Robert Plant/Tall Cool One that weren't big time singles on most top 40 stations were on KEGL (and I loved it... ).
Once KJMZ came on, you had almost no overlap between KEGL and KJMZ, as they had become the #1 and #2 "top 40" outlets here in 1989. KJMZ was almost all R&B music with some Paul Abdul, Madonna, and the odd Bee Gees/One single. Meanwhile, a 9/89 KEGL aircheck shows them playing nothing of that sort (night time "All Request & Dedication" show...I think today's teens have a little different taste in music):
Cure/Love Song
Van Halen/Feels So Good
Bad English/When I see You Smile
Fine Young Cannibals/Don't Look Back
Extreme/Mutha (Don't Wanna Go To School Today)
Tom Petty/I Won't Back Down
Midnight Oil/Beds Are Burning
Tubes/She's A Beauty
Love & Rockets/So Alive
Sammy Hager/I Can't Drive 55
Warrant/Heaven
About the only song I remember KEGL and KJMZ having in common at the time was KEGL playing Peter Schilling/Different Story (World of Lust & Crime) regularly for a little while and KJMZ having a 12" mix of it during its 10PM "Thunderstorm" mix show a couple of times.
So, if you are building a playlist for an 80s format based on the market, what's the top 40 station you use here? KEGL was #1 for most of the decade. Probably an Eagle listener didn't spend much time listening to 100.3 Jamz and vice versa.
It's not that Dallas was unique...even Wichita Falls had a similar set-up. By the late 80s, KKQV "QV103" had gone dance and R&B; rival KNIN went the other way as "Rockin' 92-9." KNIN went more mainstream after KKQV gave up and went oldies. The market is fragmented again today as the two stations that call themselves top 40s aren't...KNIN is a hot AC and KQXC "Hot 103.9" is all hip hop and R&B music. In the late 80s San Antonio, KITY "Power 93" and KTFM "Hot KTFM 103" were dance/R&B while KSAQ "Q96" was alternating between mainstream top 40 and a top 40/modern hybrid. At times, Q96 had almost nothing in common musically with KITY and KTFM.
For whoever tries a 90s oldies format someday, you have the same issue. The format really faded in the early 90s with large number of outlets moving to the new hot AC format. In a few markets, the CHRs went the rock/CHR route (KKYK Little Rock, KTUX Shreveport, KMYZ Tulsa, KEGL here again in 1992 after being mainstream 1990-1992). Most of those either went to full time AOR or modern outlets after a while. The modern rock format finally came to most markets. By the mid-90s, you had the format come back in numbers. But what is the music you select...most of the early 90s "hits" were of the Jude Cole/Baby It's Tonight and Bad Company/If You Needed Somebody variety for the stations that went more adult or all the Nirvana songs for stations that went the rock or modern route. By the late 90s, hip hop took over much of the top 40 playlist. Most of the folks that liked that probably aren't going to like what passed for top 40 of the early and mid 90s...
In the mid-80s, you had the start of the "churban" outlets (CHRs like KPWR in Los Angeles that played only R&B and dance). Billboard eventually started calling them "crossover" stations and by the late '80s had split the radio airplay into separate charts -- top 40, top 40/crossover, and top 40/rock. So, in '89, they had KHYI (the "Y95" on 94.9, for those that don't remember) in the first, KJMZ "100.3 Jamz" in the second, and KEGL in the last one.
In the fall of '86 when KHYI signed on, it was very dance and urban-leaning. Through most of the 1980s, KEGL had a rock lean (sometimes playing big pop hits from the likes of Madonna and sometimes not). KTKS was always mainstream until it became a virtual AC in the summer of 1987. During a brief period in the spring of 1987, those three got musically close as KHYI had recently gone mainstream and KTKS had not yet gone to AC. I found an aircheck of the 3 of them from middays in April 1987...
KHYI 94.9
Steve Winwood/The Finer Things
Starship/Nothing's Gonna Stop Us Now
Dead Or Alive/Brand New Lover
Cutting Crew/(I Just) Died In Your Arms
Psychedelic Furs/Heartbreak Beat
Eagles/I Can't Tell You Why
Full Force/Old Flames Never Die
Phil Collins/In Too Deep
Eurythmics/Missionary Man
Bruce Hornsby/Mandolin Rain
KEGL 97.1
Sammy Hagar/Winner Takes It All
Loverboy/Turn Me Loose
Lou Gramm/Midnight Blue
Chicago/If She Would Have Been Faithful
Huey Lewis & The News/I Know What I Like
Crowded House/Don't Dream It's Over
Talking Heads/Burning Down the House
Bob Seger/Old Time Rock & Roll
Psychedelic Furs/Heartbreak Beat
KTKS 106.1
Fleetwood MAc/Big Love
Aretha Franklin & George Michael/I Knew You Were Waiting (For Me)
Kim Wilde/You Keep Me Hangin' On
Hall & Oates/Maneater
Cutting Crew/(I Just) Died In Your Arms
John Waite/Missing You
Herb Albert with Janet Jackson/Diamonds
Boston/Cantcha Say (You Believe In Me)
Dead Or Alive/Brand New Lover
Huey Lewis & The News/If This Is It
...but that was short-lived. KTKS moved to AC and eventually died and became the original KOAI by fall. KHYI replaced it as the mainstream outlet. KEGL really went rock-leaning as those "40 minute non-stop Eagle free flights of back to back rock & roll hits" excluded a lot of pop and songs like Pink Floyd/Learning To Fly and Robert Plant/Tall Cool One that weren't big time singles on most top 40 stations were on KEGL (and I loved it...
).Once KJMZ came on, you had almost no overlap between KEGL and KJMZ, as they had become the #1 and #2 "top 40" outlets here in 1989. KJMZ was almost all R&B music with some Paul Abdul, Madonna, and the odd Bee Gees/One single. Meanwhile, a 9/89 KEGL aircheck shows them playing nothing of that sort (night time "All Request & Dedication" show...I think today's teens have a little different taste in music):
Cure/Love Song
Van Halen/Feels So Good
Bad English/When I see You Smile
Fine Young Cannibals/Don't Look Back
Extreme/Mutha (Don't Wanna Go To School Today)
Tom Petty/I Won't Back Down
Midnight Oil/Beds Are Burning
Tubes/She's A Beauty
Love & Rockets/So Alive
Sammy Hager/I Can't Drive 55
Warrant/Heaven
About the only song I remember KEGL and KJMZ having in common at the time was KEGL playing Peter Schilling/Different Story (World of Lust & Crime) regularly for a little while and KJMZ having a 12" mix of it during its 10PM "Thunderstorm" mix show a couple of times.
So, if you are building a playlist for an 80s format based on the market, what's the top 40 station you use here? KEGL was #1 for most of the decade. Probably an Eagle listener didn't spend much time listening to 100.3 Jamz and vice versa.
It's not that Dallas was unique...even Wichita Falls had a similar set-up. By the late 80s, KKQV "QV103" had gone dance and R&B; rival KNIN went the other way as "Rockin' 92-9." KNIN went more mainstream after KKQV gave up and went oldies. The market is fragmented again today as the two stations that call themselves top 40s aren't...KNIN is a hot AC and KQXC "Hot 103.9" is all hip hop and R&B music. In the late 80s San Antonio, KITY "Power 93" and KTFM "Hot KTFM 103" were dance/R&B while KSAQ "Q96" was alternating between mainstream top 40 and a top 40/modern hybrid. At times, Q96 had almost nothing in common musically with KITY and KTFM.
For whoever tries a 90s oldies format someday, you have the same issue. The format really faded in the early 90s with large number of outlets moving to the new hot AC format. In a few markets, the CHRs went the rock/CHR route (KKYK Little Rock, KTUX Shreveport, KMYZ Tulsa, KEGL here again in 1992 after being mainstream 1990-1992). Most of those either went to full time AOR or modern outlets after a while. The modern rock format finally came to most markets. By the mid-90s, you had the format come back in numbers. But what is the music you select...most of the early 90s "hits" were of the Jude Cole/Baby It's Tonight and Bad Company/If You Needed Somebody variety for the stations that went more adult or all the Nirvana songs for stations that went the rock or modern route. By the late 90s, hip hop took over much of the top 40 playlist. Most of the folks that liked that probably aren't going to like what passed for top 40 of the early and mid 90s...
Good post.
And yes, not only did the music in the 80's and 90's really start to fragment, but I've seen a couple of different MAJOR research projects and every one of them has shown that those fragments do NOT like each others music. The grunge rockers hate the hair metal, the hair metal hates the chick-pop, and they all hate the soft AC crap...
and R-Bass- I think you have the luxury of not having to pay bills like 'real' radio stations- you have the luxury of mixing rock and pop and AC and country...Where if one of us did that, we'd more than likely crater our ratings and soon be out of a job...
I'm a prime example- I listen to KEOM quite a bit- but if you guys play 70's disco I am SO out SO fast....Odds are if you were living and dying by the ratings, you'd have gotten some of your typical listeners in a room and found out what they like, and more importantly what they don't like...And if I'm your typical listener then you would, for example, drop some of the disco and the real soft AC....
And yes, not only did the music in the 80's and 90's really start to fragment, but I've seen a couple of different MAJOR research projects and every one of them has shown that those fragments do NOT like each others music. The grunge rockers hate the hair metal, the hair metal hates the chick-pop, and they all hate the soft AC crap...
and R-Bass- I think you have the luxury of not having to pay bills like 'real' radio stations- you have the luxury of mixing rock and pop and AC and country...Where if one of us did that, we'd more than likely crater our ratings and soon be out of a job...
I'm a prime example- I listen to KEOM quite a bit- but if you guys play 70's disco I am SO out SO fast....Odds are if you were living and dying by the ratings, you'd have gotten some of your typical listeners in a room and found out what they like, and more importantly what they don't like...And if I'm your typical listener then you would, for example, drop some of the disco and the real soft AC....
Interesting points Little1, but there’s one thing you are overlooking. KEOM is playing 1970’s music about the same way you would have heard it in that decade. When you listen to KEOM, you have to essentially pretend you are in the 1970’s decade.
Another factor about KEOM is that the station does what others will not. Does that mean KEOM is unsuccessful? Absolutely not! KEOM’s 12+ cume has been steadily rising since 2004. In the fall 2006 book, the 12+ cume for KEOM hit six figures.
Yes I realize 12+ numbers mean squat in the world of commercial radio. But the demo breakdowns are telling a story as well. For one thing, the audience is getting older, which is not surprising. The 25-34 demos have remained weak between 2004 to the present. The 35-44 numbers are fairly good, but flat over the same time period. 45-54 is the best of the bunch.
Plus it’s not like KEOM doesn’t have bills to pay. The electric bill for the transmitter alone is pretty substantial. The full time staff is probably 1/3rd the size of what it would be in commercial radio.
Most importantly, KEOM provides a public service to the community, something that commercial radio typically snuffs at. The state of commercial radio saddens me on so many different levels, because it’s all about the bottom line. Maybe if you guys took lessons from how KEOM operates, you’d learn a few things.
In the meantime, KEOM will continue chipping away at DFW commercial radio’s audience,
R
Another factor about KEOM is that the station does what others will not. Does that mean KEOM is unsuccessful? Absolutely not! KEOM’s 12+ cume has been steadily rising since 2004. In the fall 2006 book, the 12+ cume for KEOM hit six figures.
Yes I realize 12+ numbers mean squat in the world of commercial radio. But the demo breakdowns are telling a story as well. For one thing, the audience is getting older, which is not surprising. The 25-34 demos have remained weak between 2004 to the present. The 35-44 numbers are fairly good, but flat over the same time period. 45-54 is the best of the bunch.
Plus it’s not like KEOM doesn’t have bills to pay. The electric bill for the transmitter alone is pretty substantial. The full time staff is probably 1/3rd the size of what it would be in commercial radio.
Most importantly, KEOM provides a public service to the community, something that commercial radio typically snuffs at. The state of commercial radio saddens me on so many different levels, because it’s all about the bottom line. Maybe if you guys took lessons from how KEOM operates, you’d learn a few things.
In the meantime, KEOM will continue chipping away at DFW commercial radio’s audience,
R
I have been studying those 80’s playlist samples, and here’s what I think. Yes I would agree in the mid to late 80’s, fragmentation was underway. Of those playlist samples, there are some songs I recognize, and others I don’t. Looking at it from a 1975 to 1985 standpoint though, you will find a lot of compatibility, and that’s what I would like to see KEOM do next.
I think you're proving some of my points. If I was the PD at a station who was losing the younger audience and watching the audience I do have hit the cliff at 54 of the 25-54 demo(and therefore fall to their deaths as a viable sellable audeince) , dollars to donuts my GM would be asking what I was doing to attract a younger audience, what music changes I was going to make, etc...Robert Bass said:
Yes you have 'bills' to pay, but you don't have a sales budget to meet, you don't have revenue goals (and peoples jobs) resting on your ability to program that station to meet those audience, rating and revenue goals...
So you can program the station as you think it would have sounded in the 70's, you can sit back and watch your audience grow older and not do anything about it because your job isn't on the line.
Sure, it would be nice if we could all follow KEOM's lead. But realistically, most of us have to make our decisions based on meeting those ratings or revenue goals...
And riddle me this R-Bass...
Your 12+'s have been rising since 2004, but then so has the whole population of the metroplex- is your increase outpacing the growth in total market size, or are you just holding your own?
Because if you're just holding your own, you're down in 25-34's, flat 35-44 and your only audience growth is in a demo that to the commercial radio world is aging itself out of importance, I'm not sure how you're chipping away at 'our' audience...
Your 12+'s have been rising since 2004, but then so has the whole population of the metroplex- is your increase outpacing the growth in total market size, or are you just holding your own?
Because if you're just holding your own, you're down in 25-34's, flat 35-44 and your only audience growth is in a demo that to the commercial radio world is aging itself out of importance, I'm not sure how you're chipping away at 'our' audience...
At the risk of inviting a CONsultant into this discussion, I’ll just say this. You guys are about profits, instead of servicing your city of license. You guys play something like 15 spots per hour, primarily centered on lenghty syndicated programming like P&K. About the only thing this market has going for it, is <gasp> a few locally owned and programmed stations.
There is a very simple fix for the younger demo situation at KEOM, one of which I have already discussed on this board. For those of you who have missed that lesson, it’s called music programming evolvement.
The entire radio industry was better off before the Telecom Law enacted consolidation. No one can convince me otherwise.
R
There is a very simple fix for the younger demo situation at KEOM, one of which I have already discussed on this board. For those of you who have missed that lesson, it’s called music programming evolvement.
The entire radio industry was better off before the Telecom Law enacted consolidation. No one can convince me otherwise.
R
Of course we're about profits, the vast majority of radio stations are in buisness to make a profit. And if we can serve our city of license atthe same time, great, but first and foremost the key is to make a profit- because no profit, no money to run transmitter...No transmitter power, no service to city of license at all...
I laugh at the 'you guys"...
Oh really, You guys?
You do realize don't you that there's a lot more of 'us guys' than of you non profit guys, right? I just looked at Wikipedia, they list 34am and 50 FM stations, and my quick guess is there mIGHT be a baker's dozen non profit...
I laugh at the 'you guys"...
Oh really, You guys?
You do realize don't you that there's a lot more of 'us guys' than of you non profit guys, right? I just looked at Wikipedia, they list 34am and 50 FM stations, and my quick guess is there mIGHT be a baker's dozen non profit...
And to answer that, let me remind "you guys" that you are operating a business on publically owned airwaves. THAT is what makes this so different from most commercial operations. Broadcast Stations on public airwaves are licensed to serve the public. I don't see that happening with most of "you guys". I mean really, how do seven minute blocks of ads in a break, serve the public interest? It doesn't. You can laugh at that all you want, but you should also be ashamed of yourself.
R
R
melonhead said:
I couldn't agree more with what melonhead said.
An exciting playlist is at the bottom of the list of what is meaningful to Bone management.
You wonder what kind of music "lovers" are actually enriched by the music repeatedly played on The Bone. The music standards of the mass audience that the Bone's advertisers sell to are ridiculously --low--. Lowest Commond Denominator, whit a decided emphasis on --Lowest--, not the middle ground, but--- the lowest. All the promotions and drive-time antics will never make that acceptable to this one!!
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