Dumb Dumb Dumb

[davideduardo]

NYC radio covers outlying surrounding counties in Staten Island and Manhattan, New Jersey, Long Island, Rockland/Westchester where non-Hispanic whites maintain a majority. The areas where the population is more equalized or minority status for non-Hispanic whites is in Brooklyn/Queens around about 32-34% and the Bronx 14%.

Having been involved in NY radio for a long time, including programming and management (including getting a signed option for WTFM in 1978), I know the extent of the market. The counties and boroughs are Fairfield, CT (partial county), Bergen, NJ, Essex, NJ, Hudson, NJ, Middlesex, NJ, Monmouth, NJ, Morris, NJ, Passaic, NJ, Somerset, NJ, Union, NJ, Bronx, NY, Kings, NY, Nassau, NY, New York, NY, Putnam, NY, Queens, NY, Richmond, NY, Rockland, NY, Suffolk, NY, Westchester, NY

Ratings are total market, although you can split them out any way you want. But overall, the market is about 57% non-Hispanic White, 10% Asian, 22% Hispanic, and 18% Black. For most ad buys, it really does not matter where the populations are located.

To stereotype and claim that all non-Hispanic whites or other groups do not listen to rock or alternative is ridiculous.

I did not say that. I said that no individual has a right to expect his personal variety or blend of rock on the radio. Or of any other genre for that matter. And I briefly explained that missing formats are missing for a reason: they don't appear to be economically viable.

You have people that have been here for generations and not everyone in these groups has migrated recently thus only listens to Spanish language, Latino or Rythmic format. Now add back a percentage of these groups and you still have a significant majority for the rock or alternative formats.

Majority? For rock? No way. In most markets, the sum of all rock formats nowhere near approaches a majority. Rock is increasingly a niche music form, as the decennial Coleman studies of the youth market show. Each decade, young people have less and less interest in rock, and seem to be drawn to more pop and rhythmic forms. It's evident when you look at the 12-17 and 18-24 ratings... where are the rock stations?

Just look at the ratings for Q104.3 with a 4.5 share in October and WRXP had a 3.6 share in making them the sixth largest station in the 18-49 group.

I read that Q had a 5.0 in 18-49 in October and it was indeed 6th, and 95% of AQH listening was not to them. Add in a couple of percent for WRXP and a few tenths of a percent for other rock-driven stations at the bottom of the list and you find that rock is a minority position in 18-49. In fact, with the top 5 representing adult pop (WLTW and WWFS), CHR (WHTZ) and rhythmic (WQHT and WKTU) and none of them leaning at all rock, you have 33% of the market listening to 5 stations that are not rock at all. To round out the top 10, you have another CHR, sports, news and another pop driven AC station...

If we go by your post about demographics then this should never have happened. The only reason WRXP does not exist is because Emmis needed the cash and sold it.

It's not demographics that determines the appeal of rock, it's psychographics and lifesyle. While we know that certain ethnic groups under-index on rock, this is mostly about the appeal of rock in general vs. pop, AC, rhythmic and, of course, ethnic specific formats.

To take it a step further, if you look at the FM formats the majority seem to be geared towards women regardless of race.

WCBS? WFAN? WINS? WABC? In fact, save for the AC's, most stations in NYC get more male listening than female because in the PPM there is 15% to 20% more male listening than female listening... and everyone in station management knows this and realizes most formats have to have significant male appeal.

So maybe the OP who says he is a white 30 year old male is in fact under-represented.

Not likely. Or a format search would have uncovered an option.

 

[Jersey Maiden]

Majority? For rock? No way. In most markets, the sum of all rock formats nowhere near approaches a majority. Rock is increasingly a niche music form, as the decennial Coleman studies of the youth market show. Each decade, young people have less and less interest in rock, and seem to be drawn to more pop and rhythmic forms. It's evident when you look at the 12-17 and 18-24 ratings... where are the rock stations?

Sean Ross would dispute this. And from personal experience, as a 25 year old, many, if not everyone in my circle of peers listen to rock. For the entire article, click here (it's the next to last on the page): http://www.radio-info.com/newsletters/ross-on-radio?page=7

If a tree falls in the forest and is No. 1 in 18-34, does anybody hear it?
Both R&B/Hip-Hop and Alternative stations have found themselves in the odd position recently of being top three or even No. 1 18-34 in their market and still around or under a four-share in 6-plus overall. Neither has the ability to put together the coalition of 13- and 38-year-olds that Top 40 does at the moment. And each, despite its 18-34 success, is often shortchanged by the industry when it comes time to decide what format to launch (or maintain) in a given market.

So the majority of rock's audience is young but combine them with those who 35-49 and the numbers don't add up to a majority as you mentioned.

On to the topic of rock becoming a niche market, I think the divide between alternative and active rock fans is too great for the subgenres to be combined again a la Krock when it played rap. But as I mentioned before, WMMR sometimes sprinkles a pinch of alternative despite being an active rock station. Yet it's in the top 5 for the Philly market. Evidently, there are not enough of those who believe Coldplay is out of place to really hurt them. Why do you think that is and how do stations decide where the line between subgenres should be drawn?

 

[TheWitch]

This is a good long conversation. For those interested in everything alternative, I came across this website that helps with info about new Alt music.
http://www.alternativecontraband.com/

 

[mrbrightside]

There is now entire generation (Gen X), whose musical tastes are not being heard on the New York dial. I'm 32, M, and right on the edge on Generation X. We grew up listening to rock radio (REM, The Smiths, The Cure, and later STP, Pearl Jam, Nirvana). There is no where to hear this music, except for the when the Q plays it between Stairway to Heaven and Freebird. The bean counters came in, over consulted radio, and we tuned out. The answer on this board is that we were not listening, however it was the PROGRAMMING that was bad and bland.

Now not to pick on the baby boomers, but your demo is getting older. I ask this again, what kind of music will be on the radio 20 years from now? Music from the 1960s will be 70 years old. Will it still be played?

I'm sick of being told to get an iPod or listen to satellite. I'm just thankful to live in Philadelphia, where we have two rock radio choices, both in the Top 5. New York City is the only major market in the country without a rock radio station, and it's ridiculous.

 

[TheBigA]

There is now entire generation (Gen X), whose musical tastes are not being heard on the New York dial.

You're assuming everyone your age likes the same music.

 

[luperm]

If rock was as much of a slam dunk as you make it out to be, why did WRXP get blown up in favor of spoken word?
It would have been easy and cheap to tweak their existing format to one that appeals to your ears and be the runaway success that you think it would be. However, Merlin chose to blow it up and try an expensive news format. It may not ultimately succeed, or maybe it will. Who knows?

You might not agree with or like Merlin's execution of a news format. However, they are not dumb people. They did their research. If there was such a glaring need for rock, Merlin would have done it. The same can be said for country or dance. People can post all of the anecdotal stories that they want about 80,000 people at a sold-out country concert, or a line outside of some dance club, or what your friends listen to as barometers as to what's happening "on the streets"...and then conclude that it somehow represents an underserved group. However, that does not always work out as a profitable radio format (which depends on enticing advertisers to buy spots). It stings even more if it is a format that you like.

 

[mrbrightside]

There is now entire generation (Gen X), whose musical tastes are not being heard on the New York dial. 

You're assuming everyone your age likes the same music. 

I am not thinking that, I do believe however that there is enough of a demand for it.  It just needs to be done right.  WRFF here in Philly is an example... A gold playlist, with some current mixed in.

Luperm, thanks for the intelligent response (seriously).  I do however think Merlin overestimated the need for an FM news station, with already established news stations on the dial (even if they're AM, WINS, WCBS, pull in big numbers).  It will be interesting to see how the future Merlin station does here in Philly...probably terrible. How much longer can they stay on the air with the terrible ratings they have in NYC?

 

[TheWitch]

IMO, I think the rock format has been researched to death & over analyzed. Stations fail because they do not draw enough listeners with their programming, to make money. We all know that. Programming music is a forgotten art form. You can't just throw a bunch of songs on the air that test well and expect your station to be rolling in dough. There needs to be some thought behind the segues and some personality (not necessarily celebrity) in the DJ's. Becoming a trendsetter in radio is also lost. There's a new generation that doesn't get the opportunity to hear new rock music on the radio, so they don't "get it". I make it a point to introduce rock music to the kiddies in my circle, and they love it. There's pleny of great new music out there. It should be heard.

 

[TonySantiago]

Becoming a trendsetter in radio is also lost. There's a new generation that doesn't get the opportunity to hear new rock music on the radio, so they don't "get it". I make it a point to introduce rock music to the kiddies in my circle, and they love it. There's pleny of great new music out there. It should be heard.

It was like that with us for awhile with dance music so I know exactly what you're saying. There was a lot of good dance music in between 1992 - 1996. Eurodance could have actually been something here in NYC but being we had no station that covered it (until 'KTU showed up in 1996) a lot was missing.

You would probably know a lot more than I do with rock, but for me the last "revolution" that I was aware of was grunge (early 90's). Not to say that nothing new hasn't come out since then, I just haven't heard it. And in that sense, right now things are cycling towards a dance/rhythmic slant on Top 40. I haven't heard any rock oriented song on Z-100 or 92.3 Now (and I doubt if Gym Class Heroes qualify on your stature of it).

Fight for it like I do with dance music. If you truly believe that there are the fans, then get 'em all together and rally up!

 

[BobSmolarek]

I think we all got an answer to Rock's problem a couple of posts back when the poster said , "we tuned out". That's the answer to the problem right there. Plus all of the young white kids blasting rap music in their cars in the 90's, this hurt rock. Yes today I couldn't tell you who the sucessors to Pearl Jam, The Smith's, and REM are. Plus the Smith's and REM couldn't hold a candle to The Who or The Stones. I do hear some grunge rock on Q-104 but usually I tune out when that comes on. When classic rock songs are 50 years old I don't know what the classic rock stations will do.

 

[TheBigA]

I am not thinking that, I do believe however that there is enough of a demand for it. It just needs to be done right.

Most of the artists you listed in your previous email didn't get a lot of airplay when they were currents. WNEW-FM didn't play a lot of grunge. So they don't have a lot of heritage in NYC.

By the same token, this is where the suburban stations fill the void, in NJ, LI, and Westchester. That's where rock stations are strong, and get good ratings. But the city is weighted heavily by the demographics that really hurt the potential for a rock station to succeed.

I really think a day will come when the classic rock stations will be faced with the same situation WCBS has, and that means less 70s and more 80s and 90s.

 

[mrbrightside]

This is the same argument again...

Tell me, in let's say, suburban Passaic County NJ, what "Suburban stations" there are to listen to for rock 24/7:

92.7 WRRV- nope, mixes with WQBU
105.5 WDHA-sort of, but TONS of drop out and mixing with the 105.5 in Danbury
102.3 WBAB- nothing. static
106.3 - (when it was Grock)- mixed horribly with WFAF
107.1 WXPK - static filled mess, mixes with the 107.1 in Long Branch)

or should I wait for 94.7, licensed to NJ to become rock? Wait,that is being stolen by NYC....

How old are you the BigA? I'm not personally attacking you, but STP, Nirvana, etc, are the bands that GenX grew up with. Stations in the 90s playing this in NYC included:

Z100 (when it was alternative)
K-Rock
WNEW when it was a mix of classic rock and alternative (failed, what a surprise).

 

[TheBigA]

How old are you the BigA? I'm not personally attacking you, but STP, Nirvana, etc, are the bands that GenX grew up with.

If so, why didn't they sell well? The fact is that the bands Gen X grew up with were bands like Green Day, Goo Goo Dolls, and Rage, along with solo artists like Dave Matthews, Beck, and Sheryl Crow. These are the artists who sold well, attracted large concert audiences, and got radio airplay. And they all get airplay today because of the impact they made on their generation. And most of them get airplay on Lite and Q.

The problem with Passaic and Bergen County is they happen to be right next to NYC, and NYC has different music taste. When you live next to a big elephant, it's likely to have some impact. And as far as radio is concerned, programmers are more focused on the 5 boroughs than Passaic and Bergen County. As I said in the WFME thread, it would be nice if NJ legislators demands NJ get more media coverage. Unfortunately, their governor doesn't want to be in the broadcasting business. So NJ gets scraps from NYC.

 

[mrbrightside]

How old are you the BigA? I'm not personally attacking you, but  STP, Nirvana, etc, are the bands that GenX grew up with.

If so, why didn't they sell well?  The fact is that the bands Gen X grew up with were bands like Green Day, Goo Goo Dolls, and Rage, along with solo artists like Dave Matthews, Beck, and Sheryl Crow.  These are the artists who sold well, attracted large concert audiences, and got radio airplay.  And they all get airplay today because of the impact they made on their generation.  And most of them get airplay on Lite and Q.

Each of those bands above (and many more rock acts from the 90s), sold millions of records each)

The problem with Passaic and Bergen County is they happen to be right next to NYC, and NYC has different music taste.  When you live next to a big elephant, it's likely to have some impact.  And as far as radio is concerned, programmers are more focused on the 5 boroughs than Passaic and Bergen County.  As I said in the WFME thread, it would be nice if NJ legislators demands NJ get more media coverage.  Unfortunately, their governor doesn't want to be in the broadcasting business.  So NJ gets scraps from NYC.

Here is something we agree about    Channel 9 should be in NJ, and NJN should not have been allowed to be disbanded and sent to WNET. 

 

[Jake Hirsch]

There is now entire generation (Gen X), whose musical tastes are not being heard on the New York dial.

You're assuming everyone your age likes the same music.

I am not thinking that, I do believe however that there is enough of a demand for it. It just needs to be done right. WRFF here in Philly is an example... A gold playlist, with some current mixed in.

Luperm, thanks for the intelligent response (seriously). I do however think Merlin overestimated the need for an FM news station, with already established news stations on the dial (even if they're AM, WINS, WCBS, pull in big numbers). It will be interesting to see how the future Merlin station does here in Philly...probably terrible. How much longer can they stay on the air with the terrible ratings they have in NYC?

It can't be done right here. It would have to be original which is something that is lacking with corporate radio. Sad..but true. RXP, although a lighter rock station was picking up steam toward the end. It was more of a girls rock station....but then if you're not a woman or minority you don't really matter. Just pay your taxes, hold doors open and STFU.

 

[Jake Hirsch]

I thought I should drop a quick comment about Q104 while I'm at it. Frankly...it SUCKS. How many times do I need to hear Sweet Child Of Mine? Really...how many times does someone need to hear the same 5 minute long beating of a dead horse? Do they think they can get away with it forever?

I know some of you may say "That's how radio works"...blah blah blah. That's how it WORKED. It's a stagnant media being driven by stagnant minds. I don't really see any big bumps in ratings OR revenue. Ask around. People "don't bother with radio anymore" because it SUCKS.

 

[Jersey Maiden]

There is now entire generation (Gen X), whose musical tastes are not being heard on the New York dial.

You're assuming everyone your age likes the same music.

I am not thinking that, I do believe however that there is enough of a demand for it. It just needs to be done right. WRFF here in Philly is an example... A gold playlist, with some current mixed in.

Luperm, thanks for the intelligent response (seriously). I do however think Merlin overestimated the need for an FM news station, with already established news stations on the dial (even if they're AM, WINS, WCBS, pull in big numbers). It will be interesting to see how the future Merlin station does here in Philly...probably terrible. How much longer can they stay on the air with the terrible ratings they have in NYC?

It can't be done right here. It would have to be original which is something that is lacking with corporate radio. Sad..but true. RXP, although a lighter rock station was picking up steam toward the end. It was more of a girls rock station....but then if you're not a woman or minority you don't really matter. Just pay your taxes, hold doors open and STFU.

If it were a girls rock station, Emmis wouldn't be harping on the fact that RXP got good numbers among male listeners. It's true that alternative gets more female listeners than hard rock but a 60% male listener base is still a majority. http://emmisnewyork.com/

Plus all of the young white kids blasting rap music in their cars in the 90's, this hurt rock.

You know, it is possible to like multiple genres. When I go around the preset dial, I mostly switch between rap and rock. Most of my friends who like rock also listen to rap.

And brightside, I never heard any of the New Wavers you mentioned on the Q but at least DHA still plays STP, Nirvana and Pearl Jam.

 

[Jake Hirsch]

Of that "60% male listener base" I'm sure a part listened because of their wives or girlfriends. The RXP "Tākliberty Festival" was to be headlined by Coldplay. That's girlrock.

Not that girls listening to rock is a bad thing. Not by a longshot. I'm just saying it's not what men working on construction sites or in auto garages want to hear.

 

[TheBigA]

I don't really see any big bumps in ratings OR revenue.

Say what you will, but WAXQ kicked the pants off WRXP, and is part of the reason why K-Rock isn't a rock station any more. They may "suck" to you, but they are one of the top-rated radio stations in NYC, and they have made it impossible for any other rock station to exist. For every one person who says "Q104 sucks," there are five people who listen every day.

And by the way, Guns 'n' Roses is another one of those Gen X bands that wasn't mentioned by mrbrightside. Gen X rock is being played. Maybe not the specific bands YOU happen to like, but that doesn't mean an entire generation's music is being ignored. That simply is not happening. At the end of the day, this discussion ceases to be about radio, and is more a matter of personal taste, and there's not much radio can do with that.

 

[TTalkradio1]

Too much time has passed for rock radio to make changes now. These changes may have worked over ten years ago.