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DVE Still Dull and Boring

Parttimer said:
DVE is to this generation of 40-somethings what KD was to our parents.

They are safe and predictable and don't offend or push the envelope.

Yep. I'm 40 and completely agree. When I'm having a bad day or stressed or tired out, I know that I can turn on DVE and it's going to be the same old thing, but some days I NEED that. Not always, but sometimes it's "I just can't deal with anything else so I'm listening to DVE."

It's the radio equivalent of Kraft Macaroni and Cheese. And believe me, Kraft knows they'd be in deep doo doo if they changed THAT in any way. I'm sure CC knows it too.
 
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Hmm, so WDVE is No. 1 because they aggressively promote the station?

These arguments are beyond silly.


Boss-If you have no argument or rationale or cannot dispute the truth, don't use your writing crutch of "these arguments are silly". As a poster said before, it's insulting our intelligence. And, it's a waste of our time.
 
I would argue that DVE is the anti-WWSW. AS WWSW's audience starts to die off (literally), the music becomes more current, likewise, DVE's audience is still very much breathing, meaning the music just gets older, not better. If you want DVE's playlist to change a little, just wait about 30-40 years when they will suffer the same problems WWSW suffered, mainly their audience no longer requires oxygen to get by.
 
fromtheinsideout said:
I would argue that DVE is the anti-WWSW. AS WWSW's audience starts to die off (literally), the music becomes more current, likewise, DVE's audience is still very much breathing, meaning the music just gets older, not better. If you want DVE's playlist to change a little, just wait about 30-40 years when they will suffer the same problems WWSW suffered, mainly their audience no longer requires oxygen to get by.

The 3WS audience isn't dying, it's aging out of the demogaphic that advertisers want. DVE will have the same issue in less than 10 years.
 
Raymond said:
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Hmm, so WDVE is No. 1 because they aggressively promote the station?

These arguments are beyond silly.


Boss-If you have no argument or rationale or cannot dispute the truth, don't use your writing crutch of "these arguments are silly". As a poster said before, it's insulting our intelligence. And, it's a waste of our time.


The truth is that WDVE is No. 1 in the ratings and does a lot of business. That stuff about them being boring and dull? That's not truth, that's your opinion.

You wrote:

"As was probably discussed on this board before, DVE is the moneymaker at the CC building because they kill their other stations (with firings and lack of pay increases/budget slashes) to save DVE. Thanks to the management over there, DVE is always protected.

No, out of touch with their audience is not a ridiculous claim. Radio people even at CC say that they do not serve their audience as they should as a rock station should. As pointed out in this forum (I think it was this one), DVE is only running on its laurels and past accomplishments. They play the same songs OVER and OVER. People who have successfully programmed music for rock stations have been saying that in industry circles for years."


CC kills the other stations? Three of the top six stations in the market are owned by CC. How are they killed?

Who at CC says WDVE does "not serve the audience as they should?"

This is how the radio business works: You identify your target audience and program a station to reach that audience. The ratings tell you how well you're doing that job. If you have WDVE's ratings, you're a success.

You wouldn't want to be a PD telling corporate, "Well, we're down two full share points in the latest Arbitron....but we've gotten three or four positive posts at radio-info.com."
 
Wow Boss, either you're not reading my posts as others do or you just want to bicker back and forth of which I won't do (don't have the time). I don't understand your logic, of which I find rather illogical.

It's obvious that my reference to CC killing the other stations is about slashing of budgets and people. If you knew the inside of the building, or anyone who works there, you would know this fact.

Just about everybody at CC knows that DVE isn't serving their audience a true rock radio station. Bottom line.

If you have WDVE's ratings, you're a success. But, DVE is only a success because of all the promotion, budget, and resources they put into it to make it a success. And, most often at the expense of it's other stations.

And your last sentence about post on radio-info was just plaine stupid. Who cares about posts on radio-info?????
 
Raymond said:
Wow Boss, either you're not reading my posts as others do or you just want to bicker back and forth of which I won't do (don't have the time). I don't understand your logic, of which I find rather illogical.

It's obvious that my reference to CC killing the other stations is about slashing of budgets and people. If you knew the inside of the building, or anyone who works there, you would know this fact.

Just about everybody at CC knows that DVE isn't serving their audience a true rock radio station. Bottom line.

If you have WDVE's ratings, you're a success. But, DVE is only a success because of all the promotion, budget, and resources they put into it to make it a success. And, most often at the expense of it's other stations.

And your last sentence about post on radio-info was just plaine stupid. Who cares about posts on radio-info?????

I don't mean to get myself in the middle of this, but I think that your missing Boss's point, and please Boss, if I'm missing the point too, I apologize.

The point is, if you are a success in the ratings, then you must be serving the needs of your audience otherwise, you wouldn't be a success in the ratings. Regardless about what we here as radio-geeks on radio-info think, it's working! If they change things up just to appease what we may think about serving what we think of as "their audience" and lose ground, then they are not serving what they think of as THEIR audience, which by the way, is quite sizable.

By the way, there's no "e" on the end of plain.
 
Boss, your points imply that WDVE became No. 1 because of what they are doing.

But they didn't become No. 1 in Pittsburgh until KDKA lost Rush Limbaugh.

So it can reasonably deducted that WDVE didn't become No. 1 because they earned it, like they did when they captured the top spot in the early 90s for a few books.

Instead, they captured it by default.

WDVE is very vulnerable. They have begun to be condescending to their audience (which is a trait you share, hence your undevoted loyalty to the station) and their songs just aren't that good.

A medicore station like K-Rock was able to take enough of their audience away that WDSY and KDKA tied them for one book.

What would a good rock station do?

It wouldn't hurt the station at all to get out of the 70s a bit and get more in touch with their audience's tastes. They pretty much can play whatever they want to as far as classic rock goes. Why not try to appeal to the under-45 crowd just a bit more?

That would put off the impending demise you state the station will have- which may occur much sooner than the 10 years away you optimistically predicted in an attempt to save face.
 
Pratte4Life said:
Boss, your points imply that WDVE became No. 1 because of what they are doing.

But they didn't become No. 1 in Pittsburgh until KDKA lost Rush Limbaugh.

So it can reasonably deducted that WDVE didn't become No. 1 because they earned it, like they did when they captured the top spot in the early 90s for a few books.

Instead, they captured it by default.

WDVE is very vulnerable. They have begun to be condescending to their audience (which is a trait you share, hence your undevoted loyalty to the station) and their songs just aren't that good.

A medicore station like K-Rock was able to take enough of their audience away that WDSY and KDKA tied them for one book.

What would a good rock station do?

It wouldn't hurt the station at all to get out of the 70s a bit and get more in touch with their audience's tastes. They pretty much can play whatever they want to as far as classic rock goes. Why not try to appeal to the under-45 crowd just a bit more?

That would put off the impending demise you state the station will have- which may occur much sooner than the 10 years away you optimistically predicted in an attempt to save face.

This is getting unbearable. You guys just absolutely don't get it.

I worked with Sean McDowell back at Y97/Magic 97/ Magic Y97. Not too long after he went into the afternoon shift on DVE he told a friend of mine that he put a phone call on the air on a Tuesday afternoon from a guy who was partying and wanted to hear a song. Gene Romano was on the hotline moments later telling him "Our people (DVE's listeners) are NOT partying on Tuesday afternoon. They are on the way home from work, worrying about what's for dinner, and picking up their kids from daycare."

DVE was crushing KD in the 25-54 money demo for YEARS. KD was not even in the top 5. News Talk 104.7 was in fact created so that DVE could also be #1 12+, but that was the last mop-up battle in a war that that long since been called.

DVE is not vulnerable. They are in touch with their listeners tastes. That's why there are so many of them and they listen all the time.

What would a good rock station do? Maybe a 2-share. There are still a few guys out there partying on Tuesday afternoon.
 
A medicore station like K-Rock was able to take enough of their audience away that WDSY and KDKA tied them for one book.

Actually it was one trend, not the entire book.

What would a good rock station do?

96.9 was a rock station. It didn't touch 'DVE.

It wouldn't hurt the station at all to get out of the 70s a bit and get more in touch with their audience's tastes. They pretty much can play whatever they want to as far as classic rock goes. Why not try to appeal to the under-45 crowd just a bit more?

I hear quite a bit of 80's an 90's rock on 'DVE.
 
Trend? Book? Do you not take it as a sign?

Or will you continue to fiddle as Rome burns?

96.9 was not a good rock station. We've been though this a million times. They had a morning show that didn't fit their format and DJs who for the most part did not sound as if they wanted to be there.

I'm on the WDVE playlist. Last 10 songs. Six are from the '70s. Three are '90s or later. One is '80s.

Maybe you like it. But there are a significant amount of listeners who don't.
 
Trend? Book? Do you not take it as a sign?

Ummm, no. That was back in 2005 and KDKA and Y108 haven't come close since. Actually, if it weren't for the frogs, Y108 would be on top. Do I think that is an indictment of 'DVE, no. It goes to show the extremely large contingent of country music fans in this area.

For years now, the country music shows at the P.G. Pavilion have far exceeded that of any other music genre out there, but I guess that because 'DVE doesn't play enought 80's and 90's.


96.9 was not a good rock station. We've been though this a million times. They had a morning show that didn't fit their format and DJs who for the most part did not sound as if they wanted to be there.

I thought that we were talking about music? That morning show on 96.9 was the only thing keeping that station afloat for a long time. We all saw what happened when he left.

Maybe you like it. But there are a significant amount of listeners who don't.

That is just a complete fabrication. You might be looking at their play list, but I'm looking at their numbers. The latest trend says that they are beating KDKA by 1.5 and Y108 by 3.7. I call that significant, don't you? I thought that ratings meant more advertisers and more advertisers meant more money. Isn't that the whole idea?

Truth be told, I don't like it. I like country music so regardless of what 'DVE plays, I'm not going to listen regardless of how much 80's and 90's they play.

Just because you don't like it, doesn't mean that's it's bad. I learned a very, VERY long time ago that the world doesn't revolve around me. Isn't it time that you learned that too?
 
corporateradiosucks said:
Pratte4Life said:
You can't argue that Poison is less deserving of being on a rock station than Billy Joel.

When The Righteous Brothers were inducted into the Rock and Roll Hall of Fame, Billy Joel was their presentor.

I like Billy Joel- but he's hardly Guns N Roses. If Billy Joel is/was being played on WDVE it shows you how far off they are.

Great songs they may be- but nobody- NOBODY- listens to a rock station to hear "Piano Man" or "My Life."

I do not know the era of WRRK that you are speaking of. I can only go by what I heard prior to its shift to BOB or JACK or whatever it was in the early part of this decade- and that was Quinn carrying the station in the morning with a show that didn't fit the format, "Piano Man" played after an AC/DC song, DJs like "Judge" and Eddy Crowe who sounded like they didn't want to be there, Pitt Athletic Director Steve Pederson having a Saturday morning show that was so underwhelming people called it up to ask for concert news, the Elwood Blues' Blues Show on Sunday night that really was probably pretty good but it just didn't seem to fit, and a playlist that when it did differentiate from WDVE's- which wasn't that often- didn't do it well.

As for the Electric Lunch, if people are calling up asking to hear the old hair bands, and yet for the other 23 hours the old hair bands aren't being played, then that's all you need to know about how out of touch WDVE is with their audience.

"I know! Let's MAKE FUN of our audience with MULLET TALK!"

I know with what I speak of, folks. I know with what I speak.

Yeah I can. Poison is pure pop, just like Madonna or Cyndi Lauper. It just happens to have louder guitars.

An additional argument besides BJ would be old Chicago like "I'm A Man." Maybe Chicago is soft lite soccer mom music now, but back in their early days, they were a weird experimental group you only heard on "underground" stations....like DVE.

It's kind of how I used to say 3WS Beatles was pre their facial hair and DVE Beatles was post their facial hair. Of course, 3WS has now completely ruined this dynamic.

You just apparently didn't listen to WRRK as much as I did, because all that stuff was on there. Plus I liked Ed Crowe a great deal. Just a difference of opinion.

A lot has changed in the music stations play (and most of the changing were needed and long overdue). Rock music in general gets involved in ruts in every market. Example, WEGW out of Wheeling says they are "new and classic rock" but does Alice in Chains count these days as being new rock? Does Nirvana?

Rock stations have major problems in that they tend to promote new rock songs that are not realy rock. "Lips of an Angel" by Hinder is one such example.

We can sit and play "Fantasy PD" all day long. In fact, I will start it off with what I would do if in charge of a rock station:

1. The Billy Joel and Chicago era on rock stations is over: same can be said for Elton John, The Beatles, Fleetwood Mac, CCR, and many of the acts who used to be heard regularly on classic rock stations that have crossed over to oldies radio and are played more frequently on the oldies stations.

2. Less Led Zeppelin, Pink Floyd and Jimi Hendrix: these groups will have a place on a rock station, but not every hour on the hour, no "Get the Led Out" and no "Shine on you Crazy Diamond."

3. Promote new acts but be careful what songs get promoted: see Nickelback and Hinder for examples of this. Also, take a chance on groups like Black Label Society who rarely get airplay in any market. I am not saying that Slayer should be played regularly, but what is wrong with Iron Maiden or Megadeth becoming a part of a regular playlist on a rock station?

4. Keep shows for the hair bands, but also include those bands in the regular rotation moderately: House of Hair is a good rock radio program. But many stations that carry the show only play hair bands during that show. It is rare for stations to include the hair bands in their everyday rotation. Only station that comes to mind which plays hair bands in the rotation is WRQK in Canton. Web address is www.wrqk.com

There are probably other ideas that people have and these are just my ideas. It is what I would listen to if it was made available.
 
Enjoyed your thoughts Freeball, and I've got some observations of my own.

You're very right in that the days of Fleetwood Mac, CCR, The Beatles, and Elton John are largely over for rock stations, but that's been the case for about 10 years now, although I hate to think they're all being relegated to oldies outlets. Oldies stations, of course, should play Elvis and Buddy and Otis, not disco, and classic rockers should stick with the heritage AOR that's been jettisoned from rock stations and dump the hair metal. WDVE, like many hertiage rock stations that have chosen to keep the emphasis on heritage instead of new, have been forced to re-evaluate their music more often than other rock stations which comfortably describe themselves as active rock, which seems to be the dream station situation you were describing.

For what it's worth, I hate hair metal, and along with 80's "rock" acts like Phil Collins and one-hit disasters like Cutting Crew I credit hair/shred metal (Warrant, Ratt, Cinderella, etc.) with ruining a lot of what was great about great rock stations in the 80's, but if hair metal has to be played, well, it's probably best heard on an active rocker. Nothing wrong with a good red meat active rock station. by the way. They can be a lot of dumb fun, though it's a shame active rock DJs these days seem more interested in being complete d---s with constant empty-calorie stunting rather than talking about the music or being more conversational with the audience. Of course, if your new music is Hinder and Nickelback, well, there's not much to talk about anyway. There's still more meat on the bones of a 25-year old solo Ozzy song to talk about than the latest from Nickelback, but ANYWAY.

The reality is WDVE, unlike WEBN in Cincinnati or WLVQ in Columbus, has a lot of long-time, older-folk listeners who were adults in the waning years of the Vietnam War. In fact, I think after L.A. County, Allegheny County has the largest population of Vietnam-era vets and folks that age. A lot of those guys still count WDVE as their station, and still expect to hear lots of Allman Brothers and Jimi Hendrix, while their younger brothers who may have worked in the Jones and Laughlin or Crucible plant with them for a summer also fully expect to hear their Deep Purple, Tom Petty, and Rush favorites. So short of a radical re-imagining of the station (like the kind of music revampings WMMS was going through every couple of years a decade or so ago), WDVE remains obliged to serve those listeners without turning into a fully backwards-looking classic rock station. I think there's still room for the Beatles and Aerosmith favorites on WDVE, but it's the new music they need to be choosy on, and it's foolish of them to ignore great new records from heritage artists like Neil Young and John Fogerty, both of whom the audience knows and who are arguably making records now as good as the ones they were making in 1969 and 1970.

WDVE can very much get away with Nirvana and the White Stripes and make those selections work well with their Zeppelin and AC/DC silver-haired library (they sound better together than you may think), they won't spin those artists since WXDX is right down the hall. So you get watered-down junk that passes for new rock these days like Hinder and Nickelback and Three Doors Down, instead of something with some creativity and teeth that better compliments the heritage side of things. And there's only so much Stevie Ray Vaughan and Alice In Chains and Dave Matthews Band you can play to cover the middle ground.

I fully appreciate WDVE's music dilemma, but I also appreciate their commitment to Pittsburgh and their long-time listeners, and it's great they've managed to remain a heritage rocker without having to retreat into that dopey "everything that rocks" approach like the formerly-great WRIF in Detroit. If they can get a little more picky about the new music and play what works AND what's good without worrying if it's eating up listeners on the other end of C.C.'s Pittsburgh flank with WXDX with artists like the White Stripes and Nirvana (don't know why they'd worry about that anyway, are those two stations really sharing that much audience?), they should be able to be around for a little while longer. Kudos too to WDVE for retaining the long-time personalities, instead of hiring a bunch of loudmouth nitwits who don't know or care about the music.

And while Metallica and Megadeth can work for a heritage rocker if properly dayparted and scheduled, Slayer won't. Save the Slayer (and Pantera!) for the alternative stations (that's another discussion), and as for the Iron Maiden, well...it'll never fit in anywhere, which means play at your own risk.
 
I love hair metal, Iron Maiden, and WRIF.

And I like what you're saying, Fee.

I will just repeat what I said earlier, because I think it is very simple.

If, as it was stated before, the songs that are requested on the Electric Lunch are totally out of touch with what is being played on the rest of the day, then the programmer is out of touch with the audience.

And I stand by everything else I have said.
 
And now, because I NEVER, EVER, EVER beat a dead horse . . .

They released the satellite ratings today. And out of 200 stations or so on Sirius, "Hair Nation" finished ninth.

You're still telling me there isn't an audience for this kind of music?
 
Pratte4Life said : I'm on the WDVE playlist. Last 10 songs. Six are from the '70s. Three are '90s or later. One is '80s.

I Listened to WDVE from 1990-2004 and i was wondering When a station Like K-Rock Was going to emerge. When 2004 Came I Listened to K-Rock They HAd a good format and had new rock sound. Pittsburgh needs a good Active Rock Station(which they Desperately need) To Compete with WDVE. I assure you when that happends, WDVE will fall out of the top 5 in Ratings.

Pratte4Life said : Maybe you like it. But there are a significant amount of listeners who don't.

I agree Pratt, I like Classic Rock Once in a while and 105.9 The X is A sucky Alternative Station so I agree with the 100.7 idea Make it a Active Rock Station and then see what happends to WDVE and WXDX.
 
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