DXing-Why?

[raydofan]

I am curious about all the people that are concerned about IBOC ruining DXing:

Why do you even DX on AM in this day and age at all?

Everything that is programmed elsewhere in the US on the AM band lacks any unique facet that would compel me to want to wade through sibilence and static to listen. The last interesting I heard was on WWVA AM years ago: Preachers on Sunday, and the coal mine closing announcements in the wee hours while driving home. That's it. The internet carries almost everything else that I would need or desire, including syndicated stuff out-of-market from Philly.

Unless you're listening to a shortwave broadcast that is out there (including propaganda), then methinks you're wasting your time.

 

[SUPERCASTER]

I am curious about all the people that are concerned about IBOC ruining DXing:

Why do you even DX on AM in this day and age at all?

Everything that is programmed elsewhere in the US on the AM band lacks any unique facet that would compel me to want to wade through sibilence and static to listen. The last interesting I heard was on WWVA AM years ago: Preachers on Sunday, and the coal mine closing announcements in the wee hours while driving home. That's it. The internet carries almost everything else that I would need or desire, including syndicated stuff out-of-market from Philly.

Unless you're listening to a shortwave broadcast that is out there (including propaganda), then methinks you're wasting your time.

Many of the HD promoters here have often defined DXing as listening outside the very strong 10mV/m inner city grade contour. They have even said that suburban listeners no longer have the right to listen anymore because they are DXers outside this strong coverage area. The terms "DXing" and "DXer" are often used by HD supporters to criticize, and harass HD opponents, and to derail the discussion of HD radio's serious deficiencies, and unpopularity.

 

[PocketRadio]

I am curious about all the people that are concerned about IBOC ruining DXing:

Why do you even DX on AM in this day and age at all?

Everything that is programmed elsewhere in the US on the AM band lacks any unique facet that would compel me to want to wade through sibilence and static to listen. The last interesting I heard was on WWVA AM years ago: Preachers on Sunday, and the coal mine closing announcements in the wee hours while driving home. That's it. The internet carries almost everything else that I would need or desire, including syndicated stuff out-of-market from Philly.

Unless you're listening to a shortwave broadcast that is out there (including propaganda), then methinks you're wasting your time.

News/talk/sports are highly-rated on the 50KW AMs - from Maryland, I easily get WWL, WLW, WSB, WABC, WSB, WBBM, etc. clearly most of the time. Actually, what you state couldn't be further from the truth for AM - this sounds more like SW. Some of us, that have listened to SW for years, appreciate DX'ing and the programming on nighttime AM.

 

[raydofan]

Many of the HD promoters here have often defined DXing as listening outside the very strong 10mV/m inner city grade contour. They have even said that suburban listeners no longer have the right to listen anymore because they are DXers outside this strong coverage area. The terms "DXing" and "DXer" are often used by HD supporters to criticize, and harass HD opponents, and to derail the discussion of HD radio's serious deficiencies, and unpopularity.

Actually, recent posts lead me to believe that a lot of DXing is for outside the primary countours of some stations:

Obviously, you've never heard WGN, Chicago - ALL original programming (except for the Twilight Zone). The BEST radio on the planet. 

In your naivete' you'v probably never heard CHWO, Toronto - with better oldies than anybody. Great presentation.

There are a dozen or so other great am blowtorches with original programming. That's why!

Methinks you should do what YOU do - and I'll happily continue to dx. I don't care what you do with YOUR time.

His bio says Michigan.

They have even said that suburban listeners no longer have the right to listen anymore because they are DXers outside this strong coverage area. The terms "DXing" and "DXer" are often used by HD supporters to criticize, and harass HD opponents, and to derail the discussion of HD radio's serious deficiencies, and unpopularity.

Are these from legitimate industry sources or from laypeople?

 

[davideduardo]

Many of the HD promoters here have often defined DXing as listening outside the very strong 10mV/m inner city grade contour.

I certainly did not say that, and since I am the one who introduced the signal strength vs. measurable listening issue, I am calling you on your misquote and faulty assumption

DXers are generally thought to be (as the term DX means) those who listen to or for distant stations outside the normal coverage range of such stations.

"Listeners" to a radio station are those people who fill in Arbitron diaries (or carry a PPM) in the local metro to which a stations is licensed. In general, there is very little listening to an AM outside the signal that can consistently dominate man-made and atmospheric interference... and that is, in larger metros, about 10 mv/m or more.

There is no way to serve and no way to monetize occasional listeners beyond a station's local coverage area.

They have even said that suburban listeners no longer have the right to listen anymore because they are DXers outside this strong coverage area.

Again, a faulty interpretation of posts.

Suburbs are part of a metro area and measured by Arbitron. However, if a station has such a bad signal that it can not be heard in the suburbs, or in some of them, with a really good signal, they will get no listening there.

The terms "DXing" and "DXer" are often used by HD supporters to criticize, and harass HD opponents, and to derail the discussion of HD radio's serious deficiencies, and unpopularity.

DXers come in two kinds, as they have from the days RaDex first published in the 20's: those who collect stations and only listen enough to be able to "log" the station and those who like listening to stuff from another city, often far away. The "log collector" group is enourmously small, numbering in the few thousands at best; it is an anachronistic hobby. The second group is more numerous, but rapidly decreasing as "things from far away" can be better heard on the Internet, etc. Particularly among younger listeners (those under 45 or 50) the noise, interference and fading and, even, the very use of AM itself, is unappealing to the max.

Preserving the ability to hear a few stations at some distance is not worthy of preventing any attempt, good or bad, to save the AM band as a whole. When AM listening is less than 20% of all radio listening, and night AM listening is only about 10% of all listening... and AM is used even less by those under 45 to 50, the issue is not preserving antiquated skywave listening opportunities, but about the viability of the band as a whole.

 

[dbdigital]

Actually the question about DXing brings up an even greater question as to whether or not clear-channel stations should even exist anymore.

They served a purpose years ago but with the potentially devastating noise of IBOC at night can their secondary service be protected and should it be, especially now that they can be heard via the internet? What about the noise they would generate and interference they would cause to other stations?

I think this is a question the FCC should consider in light of their decision to allow nighttime IBOC-AM.

db

 

[R.F. Burns]

Actually the question about DXing brings up an even greater question as to whether or not clear-channel stations should even exist anymore.

They served a purpose years ago but with the potentially devastating noise of IBOC at night can their secondary service be protected and should it be, especially now that they can be heard via the internet? What about the noise they would generate and interference they would cause to other stations?

I think this is a question the FCC should consider in light of their decision to allow nighttime IBOC-AM.

db

Basically, clear channels as they were once conceived no longer exist. If they stilll did exist WLW would be the only post sunset station on 700, like in the old days.

 

[Len14043]

I am curious about all the people that are concerned about IBOC ruining DXing:

Why do you even DX on AM in this day and age at all?

Everything that is programmed elsewhere in the US on the AM band lacks any unique facet that would compel me to want to wade through sibilence and static to listen. The last interesting I heard was on WWVA AM years ago: Preachers on Sunday, and the coal mine closing announcements in the wee hours while driving home. That's it. The internet carries almost everything else that I would need or desire, including syndicated stuff out-of-market from Philly.

Unless you're listening to a shortwave broadcast that is out there (including propaganda), then methinks you're wasting your time.

DXing is a hobby enjoyed by people that like the challange of tuning in hard to get signals. Different people have varying definations of DX. For instance, I do not consider the person that likes to listen to Cubs games on WGN in Ohio to be a dxer because that person is usually only interested in the game and would probably prefer to listen to it on a local station. I have been a dxer for 40 years and remember the thrill of hearing WLS in Tennessee or WHAM in Nevada. Dxers enjoy the hobby despite the static. You can probably say that the static is part of the experience and dxing is "in your blood." Admittedly, dxing the AM band is much different now than it was 30 years ago because of the interference of new low powered stations on the previously clear channels. As far is IBOC is concerned, I favor it on FM but have serious reservations about it on AM. It works exceedingly well for stations like WLW, but doubt it will be very robust for the graveyards at night. I would probably be for it if it worked on AM at night, but I am skeptical. We will soon find out. Dxers are not a bunch of kooks like some people like to suggest.

 

[R.F. Burns]

I am curious about all the people that are concerned about IBOC ruining DXing:

Why do you even DX on AM in this day and age at all?

Everything that is programmed elsewhere in the US on the AM band lacks any unique facet that would compel me to want to wade through sibilence and static to listen. The last interesting I heard was on WWVA AM years ago: Preachers on Sunday, and the coal mine closing announcements in the wee hours while driving home. That's it. The internet carries almost everything else that I would need or desire, including syndicated stuff out-of-market from Philly.

Unless you're listening to a shortwave broadcast that is out there (including propaganda), then methinks you're wasting your time.

DXing is a hobby enjoyed by people that like the challange of tuning in hard to get signals. Different people have varying definations of DX. For instance, I do not consider the person that likes to listen to Cubs games on WGN in Ohio to be a dxer because that person is usually only interested in the game and would probably prefer to listen to it on a local station. I have been a dxer for 40 years and remember the thrill of hearing WLS in Tennessee or WHAM in Nevada. Dxers enjoy the hobby despite the static. You can probably say that the static is part of the experience and dxing is "in your blood." Admittedly, dxing the AM band is much different now than it was 30 years ago because of the interference of new low powered stations on the previously clear channels. As far is IBOC is concerned, I favor it on FM but have serious reservations about it on AM. It works exceedingly well for stations like WLW, but doubt it will be very robust for the graveyards at night. I would probably be for it if it worked on AM at night, but I am skeptical. We will soon find out. Dxers are not a bunch of kooks like some people like to suggest.

Len, most of us in here are DXers. I remember listening to KSL, KOA, WAOI, WBAP, XEG, XERF & even KFI in NY. I have good memories of listening to those European splits on a winter evening. Since deregulation those days are gone and to be honest, if I want to hear those stations I can do so on the internet. This is a case of been there, done that. IBOC on AM will present new challenges for the DXer. I'm starting to believe that a lot of these complaints are from small station owners who see their dreams going up in smoke.

 

[dbdigital]

Actually the question about DXing brings up an even greater question as to whether or not clear-channel stations should even exist anymore.

They served a purpose years ago but with the potentially devastating noise of IBOC at night can their secondary service be protected and should it be, especially now that they can be heard via the internet? What about the noise they would generate and interference they would cause to other stations?

I think this is a question the FCC should consider in light of their decision to allow nighttime IBOC-AM.

db

Basically, clear channels as they were once conceived no longer exist. If they stilll did exist WLW would be the only post sunset station on 700, like in the old days.

Yes, but as I understand it, clears that are class A's (like KFI, KFWB, etc.) still have to have their signal protected out to about 1200 kilometers. Is that possible with nighttime HD-AM?

I suppose what I'm thinking about is re-examining the entire AM classification.

db

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Eduardo:

"Listeners" to a radio station are those people who fill in Arbitron diaries (or carry a PPM) in the local metro to which a stations is licensed.

No one but

those people who fill in Arbitron diaries (or carry a PPM) in the local metro to which a stations is licensed.

are listeners, Eduardo?

I'm sure that does not apply to the vast majority who own radios and may consider themselves radio listeners.

Eduardo radio, serves only the surveyed?

 

[davideduardo]

Eduardo:

"Listeners" to a radio station are those people who fill in Arbitron diaries (or carry a PPM) in the local metro to which a stations is licensed.

No one but

those people who fill in Arbitron diaries (or carry a PPM) in the local metro to which a stations is licensed.

are listeners, Eduardo?

I'm sure that does not apply to the vast majority who own radios and may consider themselves radio listeners.

Eduardo radio, serves only the surveyed?

Anyone in the metro a station is in, over 12, can be a diarkeeper. Any one of them might get a diary. Outside the metro, it does not matter. Listening outside a metro does not accrue to the in-market ratings of a station, so it is, if any, of no practical purpose.

 

[davideduardo]

Yes, but as I understand it, clears that are class A's (like KFI, KFWB, etc.) still have to have their signal protected out to about 1200 kilometers. Is that possible with nighttime HD-AM?

KFWB is not a clear.

 

[Len14043]

Actually the question about DXing brings up an even greater question as to whether or not clear-channel stations should even exist anymore.

They served a purpose years ago but with the potentially devastating noise of IBOC at night can their secondary service be protected and should it be, especially now that they can be heard via the internet? What about the noise they would generate and interference they would cause to other stations?

I think this is a question the FCC should consider in light of their decision to allow nighttime IBOC-AM.

db

Basically, clear channels as they were once conceived no longer exist. If they stilll did exist WLW would be the only post sunset station on 700, like in the old days.

Yes, but as I understand it, clears that are class A's (like KFI, KFWB, etc.) still have to have their signal protected out to about 1200 kilometers. Is that possible with nighttime HD-AM?

I suppose what I'm thinking about is re-examining the entire AM classification.

db

I think the current allocation scheme would work at night in the all-digital mode. However, I surmise that the HD signal of a graveyard channel would fail within a few miles of the tower in the current hybrid mode. WLW has an enormus digital footprint during the day because of its power and 2nd ajacient protection. Its digital range would likely be restricted at night because of the skip coming in on 690 and 710. In fact, I would'nt be surprised if their range was limited to within 20 miles of the tower on nights when the skip is strong. FM occasionally has this problem during temperature inversions in the summer, but is generally short lived.

I think FM will work very well in the all-digital mode and will not need an analog backup. I noticed that an HD signal is available even when the sidebands sound ratty. Just imagine how well FM HD will be when the digital signal is at a highter power level on its assigned frequency!

 

[SUPERCASTER]

Len said:

I surmise that the HD signal of a graveyard channel would fail within a few miles of the tower in the current hybrid mode.

It does, and they are getting "skinned".

Some say, at times it is difficult to get the HD signal much past the transmitter site's driveway. But the good news is you can come into their lobby, become a "lobbyist" and listen.

Try WHAT 1340 AM Philadelphia.

http://www.skinradio.com/

 

[raydofan]

Len said:

I surmise that the HD signal of a graveyard channel would fail within a few miles of the tower in the current hybrid mode.

It does, and they are getting "skinned".

Some say, at times it is difficult to get the HD signal much past the transmitter site's driveway. But the good news is you can come into their lobby, become a "lobbyist" and listen.

Try WHAT 1340 AM Philadelphia.

http://www.skinradio.com/

I've been there..it's in that building next to the Sleep Study Center...hehe...that signal sounds...meh.

 

[Ed101]

If I'm correct, AM stations have to turn their IBOC off at night because of interference issues.

 

[jim8230]

Wait a minute......Some small station owners may be the ones complaining about their dreams going up in smoke? Are you suggesting that small station owners have no right to protect their little piece of the broadcasting spectrum? After all, whether you agree with the licensing structure on AM or not, they were granted a license to broadcast just like WOR. (Think Walmart moving into the neighborhood.)

I'm not so sure that some of these small stations will be free of interference from the big guys even within their protected contours when the IBOC is fired up at night. We will see what happens.....but, to casually dismiss potential legitimate complaints from fellow broadcasters that are genuinely concerned about their businesses as just an inconvenience to progress is simply ignorant and further promotes dissent on both sides of this issue.

Furthermore; I believe that if the noise and interference predicted on AM comes to pass, there will be nobody left listening to convince that "HD" is the savior of the band.

 

[davideduardo]

If I'm correct, AM stations have to turn their IBOC off at night because of interference issues.

That changes in next month or so.

 

[semoochie]

...30 days after the rules are printed in the Federal Register, which we've been waiting over a month for so far.