dying AM radio

[boombox4]

Why should this thread be declared dead? I think it is interesting reading.

There's been a lot of talk about regulation of AM stations, need to limit foreign language broadcasts, etc.

I'm not in favor of limiting foreign language broadcasts at all. Not just because the foreign language AM stations sound cool, but also the principle of the thing. We have formats on AM and FM that cater to different age groups, different lifestyles. Nobody complains about that. So why should foreign language formats be treated any different? I don't want to see the government micromanaging broadcasters, because it's a slippery slope.

Not to knock our Canadian friends -- but the CRTC tends to do this in Canada. It works well for Canada, but I just don't think it's a very American concept for the government to determine who you can broadcast to, which language you can broadcast in, and what sort of music you can play on your station.

And finally, there's the practical matter of it: do we really think that if the U.S. somehow created an English-only rule for radio stations that immediately all the millions of people here who speak different languages would suddenly be speaking English? I really doubt it. And I don't think an AM station broadcasting in Punjabi or Viet or Spanish is enabling people to stay away from learning English.

The people who speak other languages still have real lives to deal with, a life that includes interacting not only with English speakers, but speakers of other foreign languages --and in such environments (usually the workplace), English is still the language they all know in common (even if it's broken English).

 

[Goat Rodeo Cowboy]

The other thing I'm reading about is the rise of AM radio ownership by religious organizations. Just today, the Radio Disney station in Orlando is being sold to a religious broadcaster. Should the FCC start imposing content rules on religious broadcasters in the public interest? Doesn't that impinge on the freedom of religion?

We're taking a side-street here that ventures away from the core topic, but understanding some of the pressures and down-hill flow going on the religious broadcasting may help us refocus our view on other aspects of broadcast economics, rules and opportunities.

As a young man I thought maybe there was a future for me in the world of religious broadcasting and that was before the day when it was common for a community to have an all-religion station. I thought I might work in the denominational mechanisms that produced the high quality network stuff on Sunday morning back in the 40s and 50s. They apparently wanted no part of me.

I put in a number of years in "home town/small town radio" but ended up one day in the city running one of the early-adopters of today's preach and teach commercial religion. Three years of that was enough to last for the rest of my life. I share all of this just to set the stage that I might have some credentials and experience to make the comments that follow.

Hang on.

Have you noticed that around the world the things we think of as "foreign affairs" are today driven by countries and groups who are boldly and starkly divided by religion? If we can agree for the sake of discussion to include the movement we call Communism as something of a religion in it's own right, all of our wars and peacekeeping efforts of the past 50 years have been involvement or influence in wars driven by religion.

When the first Iraq war came along, we learned about Sunnis and Shia and other subsets in the world of Islam. They don't like each other.

Big change of scenery:

All of this discussion about regulation and use and direction of AM radio can be considered our own American version of a somewhat quiet religion cold-war. When I look at all the chaos in Washington today, the root drivers is the war between the Evangelicals and the Liberals of Christianity and other religions with Western acceptance. Driving the Conservatives of our nation's politics is the Jerry Falwell and Pat Robertson wing of Christian Evangelical thinking. Driving the Liberals of our nation's politics is the liberal wing of the Christian mechanisms allied with significant amounts of Judaism, Buddhism and a lot of rank and file Catholicism.

This weeks report by the Senate on the topic of CIA Torture is a scene from the drama I describe.

I'm sorry, Avid. Much of your "logic" on what troubles AM radio and how we provide communications for our newest residents..... a.k.a. "immigrants" is just one more page out of the ongoing battle in this country in which some citizens see life as a us-vs.-them religious war.

People of ALL faiths and religions around the world have to go about the business of creating and maintaining a working economy and a working political system. We all have to sit down once in a while and deal all the cards in our hand onto the table face-up and see what our opportunities and our challenges are. And decide if we want to play the game.

Unfortunately, politics can quickly become a blood sport. So we each have to decide whether we see radio (including AM) as a weapon of war... dripping in blood, or as a tool for peace-making.

 

[TheBigA]

So we each have to decide whether we see radio (including AM) as a weapon of war... dripping in blood, or as a tool for peace-making.

Which is why the government has stayed away from this potentially hot potato.

 

[Jody-Thornton]

And for the record, for the purposes of discussion, when an art form or media is considered "dead", that doesn't mean that there aren't some isolated pockets where it still continues as a nostalgic re-enactment. I've seen places where you can still see vaudeville shows performed, though they are an homage to a "dead" art form. I have friends who collect and restore antique cylinder based phonographs, and actually hand-make brand new wax cylinder recordings. I once heard a syndicated radio program that re-creates old-style radio broadcasts, including seeking out old RCA microphones and playing records over the air by placing a microphone near the output horn of a wind-up, 78 RPM Victrola. When AM radio reaches the point where a handful of hobbyists keep old AM stations on the air for the sake of remembering the good old days, that doesn't mean AM is still "alive".

Although I'm in Canada, AM is in the same declining predicament here. Could a sample of the spectrum not be allocated for hobbyists who want to be able to make use of antique AM radios (thus transmitting a low power signal to them), or else being able to provide local information services to rural areas?

 

[TheBigA]

And what I think is that if American citizens want to talk about American politics in English, then let the government try to stop them.

I'm demonstrating a lack of consistency in your argument. You want the government to come down against radio stations that "narrowcast" in a particular language, but you say it's OK for stations to "narrowcast" to a particular ideology. Neither the language nor the ideology are illegal. In fact, both the foreign language and the ideology are quite popular. That's why radio stations choose to program to them. So why should one be discriminated against, while the other is permitted? Especially when the majority of the listeners to these stations are in fact legal American citizens? You seem to think that discrimination is in the public interest.

 

[Jody-Thornton]

Yeah, there was a lame attempt at creating AM Stereo. It failed in the marketplace. Even though it had two channels, the very, very few people I've talked to who ever heard it said it still sounded as bad as any other AM broadcast, including static and lack of fidelity. It just had two channels of bad sound instead of just one. At the time it came out, in the city where I lived, the only station broadcasting AM stereo had a boring, lackluster music format. At the time, there were lots of good FM stations that not only had left and right channels, they also sounded good and they played music worth listening to.

What's the point of even mentioning the failed attempt to introduce AM stereo several decades ago? That's like pointing out that a revival of Betamax might bring about a return of VCRs.

And seriously, what do you think the chances are of stumbling across an AM stereo station that plays a compelling collection of music?

Well calling the attempt at AM Stereo "lame" is being a tad misinformed. What lends to the further misinformation is others telling you that the AM Stereo reception they heard was crap. What sounded crappy was the narrowband AM signal they were hearing, not the fact that it was in stereo.

AM on most receivers nowadays is received with a narrow band setting that only allows audio bandwidth of about 3 KHz. Selectivity of adjacent weak signals improves on narrowband, but the sound is truly awful. Try covering your mouth with your palm and read the last line. See? That's how it sounds. But it doesn't have to. Wideband AM reception of a strong signal will reveal the entire 10 KHz audio range that AM is capable of. Even in mono, AM will sound substantially better. Now add stereo. On some wideband Sony and Carver receivers in the 80s (during non-critical listening), I could easily get an "FM-like" feel from AM Stereo. On a GE Superadio, just recently, I mistakened a local AM station for its sister FM station. It was that good.

Now while the Kahn system by Harris was definitely superior, Motorola's C-QUAM system actually had better channel separation and imaging than FM. So while AM Stereo may have failed to garner attention and demand from the public, it wasn't because the system was lame by any means.

 

[Jody-Thornton]

You may want to get your hearing checked.. AM= 10Khz High frequency cutoff, FM=15Khz. FM stereo separation: >50dB AM stereo separation: >20dB Back in the day, AM stereo did sound better than AM mono, but didn't compare with FM stereo. This horse is dead and buried.

Yes AM can only go flat to 10 KHz. I know of a modulation monitor that has a shelf response of 18 KHz, but no AM signal will take advantage of it.
However, I don't know where you've obtained such a poor separation figure for AM. It does exceed FM Stereo on the best C-Quam tuners. Only low-end magnetic phono cartridges get down to such poor channel separation figures that you've described.

 

[mimo]

Jody asked a very interesting question. Could part of the spectrum be used for amateurs. I've heard people talk about that being possible in the future. Even in the late 80's when AM was still very viable in Canada, as a teen, I saw AM moving to niche formats, and possibly moving to community based stations in the distant future. While I don't see the AM dial getting any emptier in Canada, I do see it eventually repopulating a little bit. Remember that Ottawa was down to 3 AM stations after May 7th 2009. Today there are 5 in the market. Montreal has 4 licenses looking to become real stations, and Calgary is looking to reactivate 700 khz for a new station. As soon as transmitter site details are ironed out. New AM's have been or are being licensed in Toronto and vicinity. While many of the new or recent stations are community or foreign language stations....some are general interest, like Mississauga's talk station at 960, Montreal's 2 talk stations at 600 and 940, and the new sports station there at 850.

To argue an earlier post a couple of pages back....Foreign language stations are no more narrowcasting than any other stations. Most radio does not programme to me. Especially FM radio in 99.9% of North America. I like hard rock, 80's alternative goth rock, classical and most forms of underground music. Outside of college/university or public radio, there's nothing for me. Classic hits is ok once in a while to hear the occasional "oh wow" track....but I have no interest in pop music, country, classic rock, urban or soft AC. I do have an interest in very weird music, ethnic music, talk, news and sports. Most of my listening is to AM because I get the NFL games I want, the all news stations I want, and in Canada, the issues oriented talk is still pretty neutral...even as a far left leaning person, there are "conservative leaning" hosts on the radio here that I do enjoy and even can agree with and still feel my viewpoint is respected. The south Asian stations in Canada are just fantastic, and for an English speaking person like me, it makes me feel like I'm somewhere else for a while. Believe it or not, my classical music fix comes from a local AM station here in Ottawa, which is only 1000 watts at 1350 AM. I like the sound of Classical or Opera on AM and on a good wideband or slightly offtuned narrowband radio, sounds just as good as FM

Jody's point about the separation of AM stereo is also right on...at least as far as C-QUAM is concerned. CJVB 1470 in Vancouver had unbelievable left and right separation. I've never heard that kind of separation on any other source, not even at a concert.

 

[TheBigA]

Jody asked a very interesting question. Could part of the spectrum be used for amateurs.

I'd suggest the cost could be an issue. The only way it would be approved is as a non-commercial service. It would just accelerate it becoming the religious band.

 

[mimo]

That is very likely, A. I've only heard people talk about that as a possibility, and none of them were in any real power to do any thing like that. It's been discussed on this board as a pipe dream by some and if it were to happen, it would just be a bunch of low powered stations run by people playing what they want, to a very small audience. I don't see that ever being a reality. If done right it could be very fascinating listening...but the likelihood about being done right is very slim at best.

David, I remember reading about that anecdote. It was famous.

 

[davideduardo]

David, I remember reading about that anecdote. It was famous.

The situation was even commented in the LA City Council, and widely reported. It became a recurring topic on the air as several of our hosts debated with Amalia when the saw things differently.

She went on to be PD of the station and then to be PD of the 12-market Recuerdo network.

 

[TheBigA]

it would just be a bunch of low powered stations run by people playing what they want, to a very small audience.

They would have to be very rich people, with lots of money to burn, and time on their hands. It's why so many LPFMs are religious, not community stations, as intended.

 

[jmtillery]

LPFM should have never been authorized. As it is now, LPFM is limited to 100 watts as a non-commercial medium which is a vast waste of FM spectrum as it is currently authorized, saturating an already over-saturated FM band. I would much rather see the LPFM spectrum authorized for translator use which can be used to enhance and improve AM listening among other possibilities. Had the FCC approved the initial LPFM proposal that would have allowed LPFM to operate with 1,000 watts at 180 feet as a commercial medium, I would have supported that proposal as it would have allowed commercial FM service to underserved communities where a class A frequency would not technically fit. LPTV has always been authorized to operate as a commercial medium. LPFM (LP 1000) should have been given the same advantage.

 

[joebtsflk1]

LPFM should have never been authorized. As it is now, LPFM is limited to 100 watts as a non-commercial medium which is a vast waste of FM spectrum as it is currently authorized, saturating an already over-saturated FM band. I would much rather see the LPFM spectrum authorized for translator use which can be used to enhance and improve AM listening among other possibilities. Had the FCC approved the initial LPFM proposal that would have allowed LPFM to operate with 1,000 watts at 180 feet as a commercial medium, I would have supported that proposal as it would have allowed commercial FM service to underserved communities where a class A frequency would not technically fit. LPTV has always been authorized to operate as a commercial medium. LPFM (LP 1000) should have been given the same advantage.

Since this thread would rather drift than die the good death, I would disagree with you on LPFM being a waste of spectrum in theory, but in practice you're right. Most community stations program to their 20 and 30 friends for each individuals 3 hour show per week, or it's religion. Unless an area has few radio options, it's going to be hard for LPFMs to gain real traction.

1 kW LPFM should have been given a chance in underserved areas where a class A wouldn't fit. Is it time for contour protection for 92 to 108? That's another thread. But it may be needed to a lot of the rural AMs off the air. Maybe enough could migrate to let th urban AMs that couldn't migrate to have some more power.

 

[jmtillery]

Since this thread would rather drift than die the good death, I would disagree with you on LPFM being a waste of spectrum in theory, but in practice you're right. Most community stations program to their 20 and 30 friends for each individuals 3 hour show per week, or it's religion. Unless an area has few radio options, it's going to be hard for LPFMs to gain real traction.

1 kW LPFM should have been given a chance in underserved areas where a class A wouldn't fit. Is it time for contour protection for 92 to 108? That's another thread. But it may be needed to a lot of the rural AMs off the air. Maybe enough could migrate to let th urban AMs that couldn't migrate to have some more power.

It was the NAB that killed LP1000 and only agreed to LP100 as a non-commercial medium. I'm sure the big radio companies were behind the NAB lobbying efforts.

 

[R.D.P.]

I'm going to say this and move on. This post has dragged on for too long. It's one of the longest, I've ever seen, since I became a member. With that being said, I'll leave with this thought. If a broadcasting outfit, can program a foreign language station right and have success, then let them do it. For years, I've been one to say that WIQR Prattville needed to be shut down. I thought they were wasting space. Now I've abandoned that idea completely. WIQR has tried everything under the sun to survive. Now that the Spanish populace is growing, in the Gump area, it made perfect sense for the owner(s) to devote a majority of the broadcast to their community and interests. I don't know how they're doing financial and rating wise but things seem to be going well for them, since they took this route.

Dan <><

 

[BOZ Profit]

It was your paraphrase/summary of what I wrote that was clearly and obviously dead wrong, you ****** of ******.

I'd prefer you not pretend to self-censor. You will set a precedent and we will begin to see more of the same, which defeats the purpose of not swearing at all. Understood?

 

[jmtillery]

Can we please get off the political bandwagon and, instead, get back to the original "Dying AM Radio" topic or simply end the thread. Some of the posters, and I am not pointing any fingers, has engaged in political mudslinging resulting in name calling and insults. Once insults begin being lashed out, the argument is no longer a valid argument. Thank you.

 

[FredLeonard]

Yet you keep posting. Go figure!

Threads die when people stop posting in them. Duh! That's another obvious truth about forums like this that anyone with a lick of sense understands. You don't need to be someone with a position of authority to point out what should be clearly obvious. If you want a thread to die, you don't have to whine to management like a snot-nosed little kid. You just stop posting in it.

I didn't complain to management. And it's hypocritical for you to complain about people complaining about what other people have posted.

AM dying - or Radio Shack dying - is like climate change. Some hand-wringing. Followed by some denial. None of which makes the slightest difference.

AM Radio is dead:

(It) should have died hereafter;
There would have been a time for such a word.
To-morrow, and to-morrow, and to-morrow,
Creeps in this petty pace from day to day
To the last syllable of recorded time,
And all our yesterdays have lighted fools
The way to dusty death. Out, out, brief candle!
Life's but a walking shadow, a poor player
That struts and frets his hour upon the stage
And then is heard no more: it is a tale
Told by an idiot, full of sound and fury,
Signifying nothing.

 

[dualux]

Some AM radio stations are dead. Some AM radio stations have listeners and are making money.

Some FM radio stations are dead. Some FM radio stations have listeners and are making money.