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Ed Schultz Blasts Phil Boyce and Poor Management at WABC

jaymarvin said:
If I were Ed I wouldn't say much about numbers. Go look at his across the country. In most markets his numbers are no better than the radio stations he's on. What's the point in going after Phil Boyce? Most people who listen to Ed do not know who Phil is. If I live in Denver and hear Ed going after Boyce and WABC why do I care? This is another example of how not to do radio. If you're going to attack someone attack someone who is on the air like Hannity or Limbaugh.
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Jay, the other thing when doing accurate comparisons could be that many class B progressive talk stations do not cover the entire survey area, like KABQ in Albuquerque, although they could go directional if they wanted to submit an application. KPOJ in Portland, however, covers everywhere, with their recent upgrade to 25kW on two new towers.

KPTK/Seattle is a 50kW shoestring signal and weak at the fringes with difficulties inside buildings. KQKE / SFO doesn't cover the whole area. I'm not sure about you at KKZN since you are protecting someone (Detroit?) even though it's 50kW. KTLK/L.A. is 50kW but is weak to both the east and southwest of the Tx site at the far east end of the valley. KLSD/San Diego 5kW day, 1kW night was a problem. AM 1480 / Phoenix is weak, but has a good skywave at sunrise w/ Steph Miller that high on the dial. Anyway this DX-er better stop typing.
 
Tom, the stations PT is on, as you point out, are largely bad. Any number of formats of the month were on these stations before. To say these stations get bad ratings is pointless... if PT were to work, it would get better numbers on a sort of extrapolated basis. If you put news/talk on KYPA in Los Angeles, which covers a fraction of the market (mostly non-Caucasians), and got a 1 share, you'd be the most excited person in LA radio. The average person would say a 1 share is nothing, but people in LA radio would understand.

Several years ago, Sean Hannity was on KTBL in your neck of the woods. I forget his cume, but it wasn't that great, although it outpaced the station. Dr. Laura, conversely, had been going down and wasn't keeping up with KKOB's strength. Based on both hosts' trends, they swapped places.

The bottom line is that I do think the smart people making decisions will see through the 12+ numbers, bad signals, etc. If any of the stations you mentioned had 2 or 3 shares, some better station in the market would likely poach the PT format from them.
 
The numbers I was using are Ed's 25-54. How easy it is to sit there and take shots and a guy in a market you're not even on! Thanks KJCB for the 1 share comment. I've had morning drive here as high as a 2 share, but most books it sits at a 1 to 1.5. Also KKZN faces the same problem of a lot of formats on this frequency. Plus poor winter time signal. Instead of yelling about Phil how about Ed worry about his own numbers?
 
Jay, you're right - people need to take into account the circumstances. KKZN is one of the best of the PT stations, but at night it's harder to get anyone to listen with the night pattern. These are factors smart radio people understand, and it's part of the reason why AM 760 has been on in Denver for some time.
 
KJCB said:
Jay, you're right - people need to take into account the circumstances. KKZN is one of the best of the PT stations, but at night it's harder to get anyone to listen with the night pattern. These are factors smart radio people understand, and it's part of the reason why AM 760 has been on in Denver for some time.
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Among others, Liberal talkers KPOJ, WINZ, KPTK, KGO, KIRO, KKZN (day), KTLK, KRXA, KABQ (day), KOPT (formerly, day), KTRC (day), KLSD (formerly, day) all have great signals.
 
Thanks KJCB. We are also blessed to have one of the best Sales Managers I've ever worked with. She gets how to sell this format and the station. And if she, and the sales staff keep it up, we'll end up way over last year in dollars. Back to Ed. He's a good guy. But I heard him one afternoon blasting Rhandy Rhodes and Air America. OK, Ed is right. AAR sucks. But how does that help him or my radio station? It's not like the old days where I use to sit on WFLA and WLS and attack other stations in the market. Now all the stations are owned by one or two companies. It doesn't makes any sense to go after one of your own or after Phil Boyce who most don't know. It's another sign of what's wrong with the format. No one has taken the time to teach people how to do the basics. I don't care for Tom Hartman. But I'm not going to bash him on the air.
 
Hmmm....all of your posts on Thom are very interesting, there are definitely strong regional variations on Hartmann. In New Mexico, THEY LOVE HIM!!! KTRC, KABQ, KVOT, he does GREAT! In Seattle, and Oregon, THEY LOVE HIM!!! KPTK, KPOJ, KBBR, he does GREAT!

AM 1090's TSL went way up after they added Thom. He was beating Rush in spring 2006 for 25-54. In fact, as you recall, 1090 DISPLACED Franken for late afternoons in order to run Thom LIVE. The listener response was INCREDIBLE. I watched the 1090 web site's discussion boards, and people just loved Hartmann.

I think it might be the Creative Class axes MIGHT relate somehow to the success of the more intellectual, environmentally conscious Hartmann. Seattle-Portland, Albuquerque-Santa Fe, Minneapolis, Wisconsin, San Francisco-L.A., etc. this article -

http://www.collectorsguide.com/ab/abfa31.shtml

"There are pairs of great cities across the country, linked forever by geography, if not temperament. Los Angeles and San Francisco, Portland and Seattle, St Paul and Minneapolis come to mind."

"The Albuquerque/Santa Fe "axis of creativity" one day may be mentioned in the same breath. In author Richard Florida's groundbreaking book, remote The Rise of the Creative Class: And How It's Transforming Work, Leisure, Community and Everyday Life, he rates Albuquerque and Santa Fe as two of the most creative cities in the country."
 
What are the basics of a good talk radio host?

jaymarvin said:
Thanks KJCB. We are also blessed to have one of the best Sales Managers I've ever worked with. She gets how to sell this format and the station. And if she, and the sales staff keep it up, we'll end up way over last year in dollars. Back to Ed. He's a good guy. But I heard him one afternoon blasting Rhandy Rhodes and Air America. OK, Ed is right. AAR sucks. But how does that help him or my radio station? It's not like the old days where I use to sit on WFLA and WLS and attack other stations in the market. Now all the stations are owned by one or two companies. It doesn't makes any sense to go after one of your own or after Phil Boyce who most don't know. It's another sign of what's wrong with the format. No one has taken the time to teach people how to do the basics. I don't care for Tom Hartman. But I'm not going to bash him on the air.
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Jay brought this up, and sparked the question in the subject line. Now, lets try to avoid the party and ideology bashing that is usually associated with talk radio. I just want to hear from others that are in the business what they consider the basics of a good talk radio host.
 
On the subject of Hartman if you look at his numbers across the country he doesn't do very well. It's not that he couldn't do better. It's that no one, who knows what their doing or how to do it, has ever sat down with him and shown him the basics. Example: debating conservative authors day after day, and they are authors most people have never heard of, is OK but not day after day. And if you're going to promo them promo the subject not the guest. Show some sense of humor. He shows very little. Who's your target? Who are you talking too? I'd say a 40 year old male. Do you think a 40 year old male, who makes house payments, and is trying to get his kids through life can relate to a guy on the air who talks about heading a vegan farm? How about guests? I said before don't mention them unless their a really big name. Talk show hosts are not out the save the world their out to get numbers and bring $$$ to the station. How about Air America? They have no program director. Who keeps an eye and an ear on the talent? If talent is left to its self it's a lot like a total free market it will blow its self up. Where did I come up with this? I'm not that smart. I learned it from Randy Michaels and Gabe Hobbs. I worked for both of them in Tampa on WFLA.
 
jaymarvin said:
On the subject of Hartman if you look at his numbers across the country he doesn't do very well. It's not that he couldn't do better. It's that no one, who knows what their doing or how to do it, has ever sat down with him and shown him the basics. Example: debating conservative authors day after day, and they are authors most people have never heard of, is OK but not day after day. And if you're going to promo them promo the subject not the guest. Show some sense of humor. He shows very little. Who's your target? Who are you talking too? I'd say a 40 year old male. Do you think a 40 year old male, who makes house payments, and is trying to get his kids through life can relate to a guy on the air who talks about heading a vegan farm? How about guests? I said before don't mention them unless their a really big name. Talk show hosts are not out the save the world their out to get numbers and bring $$$ to the station. How about Air America? They have no program director. Who keeps an eye and an ear on the talent? If talent is left to its self it's a lot like a total free market it will blow its self up. Where did I come up with this? I'm not that smart. I learned it from Randy Michaels and Gabe Hobbs. I worked for both of them in Tampa on WFLA.
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If I'm not mistaken, I watched him a couple of months ago on CSPAN.
He was intelligent and everything, but appeared a little rough as a talk radio host.
You're right, Jay, he could use some touching up.

I thought it was kind of neat to watch a talk show live on CSPAN.
Didn't CSPAN used to do more of that?
I remember watching Ken Hamblin and Jim Bohanon doing their shows live carried by CSPAN many years ago. I wish CSPAN would do more of this, and not just the biggies, who have enough publicity as it is.
 
Yes, they use to do more. I was on there once back when I was on WFLA in Tampa. I think it's great to see that kind of stuff. They should do more of it.
 
"On the subject of Hartman if you look at his numbers across the country he doesn't do very well."

That is only in certain markets. Thom is a unique case, because his program is very educational. My research shows that Thom's highest ratings are in areas with high creative class scores - folks with advanced degrees in professional occupations, and areas of diversity and tolerance (Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Santa Fe, Albuquerque).

"Show some sense of humor. He (Thom) shows very little. "

KVI, KIRO, KTTH in Seattle over the years - and KGO in San Francisco - not much humor in the programming - it's all agenda, all the time. The Creative Class listens to talk radio more for its Educational Value than its Entertainment Value.
In Seattle, agenda driven talk radio SELLS because of the highly educated creative class -
Look at Brian Jennings who put Mike Siegel and other highly educated hosts on KING 1090 and 570 KVI 10-15 years ago. Huge ratings.

I have friends in Seattle blasting Air America hosts for being too superficial over their knowledge over various issues. Some don't listen to 1090 anymore, and just listen to NPR. They want more than what Air America has to offer. When KIRO's liberal hosts departed and were replaced by HUMOROUS LIFESTYLE talk hosts, they got upset, moved to 1090, and wanted Mike Webb and Erin Hart on Air America 1090.

"Do you think a 40 year old male, who makes house payments, and is trying to get his kids through life can relate to a guy on the air who talks about heading a vegan farm? "

In most of the USA, no. Exceptions: Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Monterey, Eureka, Albuquerque, absolutely, it's a huge interest in these areas. In Seattle is where Brian Jennings pioneered Laura Lee, who covered veganism, science, nutrition. The show did great in Seattle on KING and KVI and was syndicated all over the West.

"How about Air America? They have no program director. Who keeps an eye and an ear on the talent? If talent is left to its self it's a lot like a total free market it will blow its self up. Where did I come up with this? I'm not that smart. I learned it from Randy Michaels and Gabe Hobbs. I worked for both of them in Tampa on WFLA."

Air America's needs a new PD who can concentrate on selling Hartmann and Maddow to the more highly educated markets, and find some other hosts who will debate with conservatives in conservative markets, like Jay Diamond - who will be substituting for Alan Colmes on January 10, 2008.
I have been suggesting regional variations on listenership to liberal hosts to multiple people in this business and nobody shows any interest. I have the ratings, the numbers, I've studied Dr. Richard Florida's creative class methodology, but nobody's interested.

My only conclusion is that old-fashioned programmers at Jones and Air America want a cookie cutter approach to liberal talk, with a liberal version of Rush. That will never work, because most existing listeners are conservative and not open to new ideas, expressing the John Holland personality types of "conventional," and "realistic." Look, this all comes down to psychology. Hartmann, as a psychotherapist, has read all this and should come on his program and explain regional differences in listenership - based on the creative class, the John Holland personality types, and other factors. -Tom

 
The program director does not work on selling anything. He or she gives the talent direction on how to do radio better. Also Hartman or anyone else on in San Fran can not be doing that well because all you have to do is look at the "Green Station's" numbers 12 plus. They are bad. So the only places you can point out would be the North West. In the rest of the country the numbers are bad. Go look at the New York City book. The station hardly shows up with .6 12 plus. Can you imagine what their 25-54 looks like? Hartman doesn't do well here either. No one wants a cookie cutter version of progressive talk. The answer is simple. You want good radio? Get a good PD or OD and hire people who get it and know what their doing. Anyway you slice it the way progressive radio is being done is not only wrong it's not working.
 
ABQTom said:
"On the subject of Hartman if you look at his numbers across the country he doesn't do very well."

That is only in certain markets. Thom is a unique case, because his program is very educational. My research shows that Thom's highest ratings are in areas with high creative class scores - folks with advanced degrees in professional occupations, and areas of diversity and tolerance (Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Santa Fe, Albuquerque).

"Show some sense of humor. He (Thom) shows very little. "

KVI, KIRO, KTTH in Seattle over the years - and KGO in San Francisco - not much humor in the programming - it's all agenda, all the time. The Creative Class listens to talk radio more for its Educational Value than its Entertainment Value.
In Seattle, agenda driven talk radio SELLS because of the highly educated creative class -
Look at Brian Jennings who put Mike Siegel and other highly educated hosts on KING 1090 and 570 KVI 10-15 years ago. Huge ratings.

I have friends in Seattle blasting Air America hosts for being too superficial over their knowledge over various issues. Some don't listen to 1090 anymore, and just listen to NPR. They want more than what Air America has to offer. When KIRO's liberal hosts departed and were replaced by HUMOROUS LIFESTYLE talk hosts, they got upset, moved to 1090, and wanted Mike Webb and Erin Hart on Air America 1090.

"Do you think a 40 year old male, who makes house payments, and is trying to get his kids through life can relate to a guy on the air who talks about heading a vegan farm? "

In most of the USA, no. Exceptions: Seattle, Portland, San Francisco, Monterey, Eureka, Albuquerque, absolutely, it's a huge interest in these areas. In Seattle is where Brian Jennings pioneered Laura Lee, who covered veganism, science, nutrition. The show did great in Seattle on KING and KVI and was syndicated all over the West.

"How about Air America? They have no program director. Who keeps an eye and an ear on the talent? If talent is left to its self it's a lot like a total free market it will blow its self up. Where did I come up with this? I'm not that smart. I learned it from Randy Michaels and Gabe Hobbs. I worked for both of them in Tampa on WFLA."

Air America's needs a new PD who can concentrate on selling Hartmann and Maddow to the more highly educated markets, and find some other hosts who will debate with conservatives in conservative markets, like Jay Diamond - who will be substituting for Alan Colmes on January 10, 2008.
I have been suggesting regional variations on listenership to liberal hosts to multiple people in this business and nobody shows any interest. I have the ratings, the numbers, I've studied Dr. Richard Florida's creative class methodology, but nobody's interested.

My only conclusion is that old-fashioned programmers at Jones and Air America want a cookie cutter approach to liberal talk, with a liberal version of Rush. That will never work, because most existing listeners are conservative and not open to new ideas, expressing the John Holland personality types of "conventional," and "realistic." Look, this all comes down to psychology. Hartmann, as a psychotherapist, has read all this and should come on his program and explain regional differences in listenership - based on the creative class, the John Holland personality types, and other factors. -Tom
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You cannot sell creative class indexes or whatever the hell your talking about. You can only sell entertaining hosts and numbers. Tom are you a affiliate rep?
 
jaymarvin said:
The program director does not work on selling anything. He or she gives the talent direction on how to do radio better. Also Hartman or anyone else on in San Fran can not be doing that well because all you have to do is look at the "Green Station's" numbers 12 plus. They are bad. So the only places you can point out would be the North West. In the rest of the country the numbers are bad. Go look at the New York City book. The station hardly shows up with .6 12 plus. Can you imagine what their 25-54 looks like? Hartman doesn't do well here either. No one wants a cookie cutter version of progressive talk. The answer is simple. You want good radio? Get a good PD or OD and hire people who get it and know what their doing. Anyway you slice it the way progressive radio is being done is not only wrong it's not working.
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I do not understand what you are saying.

12+ numbers on Radio and Records don't count since evening and weekend shows with typically lower ratings are averaged into the total number.

For talk radio, it's the 25-54 demo that the sales department shows to advertisers.

Even if the 12+ is a 0.6, the station might still be getting 3 shares for 25-54, 6A-7P with Miller, Hartmann, Big Ed, and Rhodes.

We can't post ratings here, but if you call the PD's in Seattle, Portland, Albuquerque, San Francisco, etc. and ask for numbers, you'll find great numbers for Miller, Hartmann, Rhodes, and Big Ed, and KGO local hosts.

It's a solid 12 hour lineup with Miller/Hartmann/Rhodes/Ed. Evenings and weekends for the format needs a lot of work, especially with class B signals that power down to below 1000 watts. Weekends are tough, but not impossible. Adding lifestyle talk shows like Bob Brinker, Clark Howard, Dr. Dean Edell, Glenn Haege, and Handel on the Law would increase weekend ratings on progressive stations.
 
"You cannot sell creative class indexes or whatever the hell your talking about. You can only sell entertaining hosts and numbers. Tom are you a affiliate rep?"

Hey - not appreciated! If you haven't read Dr. Florida's work then please don't comment.

A good PD will look at the demographics of the market (including the creative class) and decide what hosts will bring the best ratings.

San Francisco and Seattle have high ratings on both conservative and liberal talk stations due to the high scores and very highly educated people.
 
ABQTom said:
"You cannot sell creative class indexes or whatever the hell your talking about. You can only sell entertaining hosts and numbers. Tom are you a affiliate rep?"

Hey - not appreciated! If you haven't read Dr. Florida's work then please don't comment.

A good PD will look at the demographics of the market (including the creative class) and decide what hosts will bring the best ratings.

San Francisco and Seattle have high ratings on both conservative and liberal talk stations due to the high scores and very highly educated people.
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Not appreciated? Don't comment? You do realize this is a message board, not ABQTom's broken record progressive talk pimping board.
 
If a station has a .6 12 plus no host on that station can get anything over a 1 share. Radio and Records and the other pubs only show you the 12 plus not the 25-54's. How do I know this? Because I've seen the breakouts of the 25-54 adults in a bunch of markets. You see this is the big lie that Air America is doing well. No, their not and neither is anyone on those stations including myself. I've had better numbers on a daytimer before. Trouble is no one wants to talk truth. In a few places the format does well. Around the country it doesn't. Ask anyone inside radio and they'll tell you the same thing if their on honest. It's one of the reasons I'm lucky to have the Ops manager I do. Kris Olinger is smart and is looking for a way to fix this. The country is changing. People are sick and tired of yelling and fighting. Hosts who do not see this and move with it are going to be in trouble.
 
jaymarvin said:
If I were Ed I wouldn't say much about numbers. Go look at his across the country. In most markets his numbers are no better than the radio stations he's on. What's the point in going after Phil Boyce? Most people who listen to Ed do not know who Phil is. If I live in Denver and hear Ed going after Boyce and WABC why do I care? This is another example of how not to do radio. If you're going to attack someone attack someone who is on the air like Hannity or Limbaugh.
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As one of Phil's boys would say, the answer the question "yes or no". Have you heard "the complete" Ed rant where he goes after WABC?
 
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